Your opinion on the following: Proper etiquette when You break a borrowed saw.

[Pitt]

Tell me what you think Folks...
I have posted this in hopes of sending the link to my friend who borrowed and broke my saw..

The Story:
I went to help my friend dropl some trees. We are by no means seasoned at this being City boys; he just bought land that needs to be cleared.

I own only one tree, so being a motor head, I am eager to share my love of all things engine with my buddy bud, so I filled my truck with saws and head over.

The saw I brought over was a modified stihl motored MS 880 that had two tanks of gas run through it since new. ( its a out of warentee). So after helping friend for no more then 10 cuts, I say my goodbye's and leave him my saw to use. One week late, I get the call... He says that although he was watching over it, a day laborer he hired used the saw without his permission and somehow broke the saw. When I say broke, we mean BROKE! The piston or rod or wrist pin, whatever they have, let loose and came through the block.

The call came in as " I think I killed your saw, don't worry we will fix it" but the wording is unimportant until you read on...

So I laugh it off with "friend' and then even have him over to hang out and we laugh at his fumble. Well two weeks go by and he is searching for the parts that my repair guy needs to fix the saw. But when said friends realizes that the saw is big $$$$'s, the sentiment changes from "don't worry, we will get it fixed" to "anytime something is more then $500, I feel funny about it. That if the saw was $100 he wouldn't mind paying up. I then explained that if it were $100 I wouldn't mind either, in fact, I would have just paid for it myself, but its not.

He says that the saw was no doubt going to break regardless of who was using it, and that the saw was obviously either defective or improperly built (its a mid mod saw with open exhaust and ported intake)....

So the end result was that I said I felt that regardless of the circumstances, if I were in possession of one of his items and it got damaged, even damaged out of my control, that I would in fact replace the item no questions asked.
His take was this... "When you lend someone something that you trust, you are sure that they wouldn't purposefully treat the item carelessly and if in fact they do not abuse the item or experience an unusual circumstance, then they are in no way liable for the item borrowed". In fact, he felt that if the shoe were on the other foot, that he would think of "breakage" as part of the risk incurred when lending someone an item. (I feel this is insane! I feel that you should be very grateful that someone shares and gives to you and that you should reward them by at least treating their possessions with great care apposed to punishing them by retuning it to them broken)

He feels that as long as the borrower is properly using an item, not abusing it or being wreckless, there is no burden on the borrower to replace or in this case even repair the item. (This is against everything I believe in!)

Lastly, since the thing is modded, its a pretty penny to fix. Even before I knew he was going to balk at paying for the saw, I suggested that since it was mine, (and yes, it really shouldn't break so easily) I felt that I would split the repair with him 50/50. This to was not right according to him. He brought up a football game we attended that ended up with the boys having a pile on that resulted in him needing to see a doc for his back. He say, "Should I have charged you for the amount I paid for the doctor bills incurred, because you were on top of the pile?" (I again think this is insane!)

I work as a mechanic, my belief is this... If its in my possession, its my problem regardless. If I borrow your car and its damaged in a hail storm (an act of God that I cannot control) I owe you a paint job.
For Example, I had a vehicle in for a simple tune up. Upon removing the car from my repair bay, the transmission broke its reverse gear. Guess what? I stayed at work and repaired the trans for free. Now I am sure that I didn't do anything wrong, but it broke while in my care and custody. So I fixed it.

Oh, and this friend currently is in possession of an expensive bike of mine. When asked, he made me aware that if he cracked the frame while riding it normally, he would not expect to replace the bike frame. ( I have asked for the prompt return of the bikes in his possession!)

Before you all pile on, here is another hypothetical. Let say the saw wasn't new... Lets say you borrowed an 8 yr old saw or a 10 year old camera, both are no longer made and you broke it...Do you still replace the item? Do you offer full value to the owner or a partial? Its old so why pay for a new one?

:help:
Besides the advice to not loan tools out, what are your thoughts and what would you do if you were on either side of the coin.

 

[Ed*L]

I'm not going to get in to the who should pay part.......

I just want to know wtf were you thinking leaving a modded 880 for someone to use? That saw is NOT something you want to leave unattended in a situtation where an inexperienced operator can get their hands on it. You are real lucky the saw got blown up and nobody got killed or hurt. The lawsuit over that would have cost you a lot more than the saw.

Ed

 

[ddhlakebound]

First, how did it work out that you have an modded 880, old enough to be out of warranty, but has only had 2 tanks of gas through it?

What kind of oil are you using, in what ratio?

Did you leave mixed fuel and bar oil with the saw? If yes, was it used up? If no, what got ran through the saw?

I also read your earlier posts about your new 372 blowing up too. Something's not right....

Whenever I go to help someone out, my saws come and go with me. If I've got to loan one out, I've got 2 poulans for loaners. If one of them gets blowed up, I can just giggle and go on.

I'd never loan out ANY $2k tool, unless I could afford to eat the loss if it came back broke.

If I broke the above rule, there would be a "you break it you buy it" understanding in place before it changed hands.

All around, its a bad situation to be in, because you can't put a dollar value on a good friendship. If you can, it isn't a very good friendship.

In this case, you really need to determine if your buddy or his worker did something wrong with the saw or fuel. If he didn't, it was probably gonna blow anyway. If your buddy or his worker did something wrong, he should pay 100% to make it right.

Either way, you should have known better than to let a huge, modded, pro saw out of your sight.

 

[mysawmyrules]

Around here we borrow anything from a 50$ puller to a 400,000$ combine or grader under the understanding that bit has to go back better than it got here weather that be washing equipment or just spit polishing tools. If it broke in our possesion it went back in better condition and the repair was on us no matter what. Cost share has been negotiated for large preborrowed and known conditions other than that if your not ready to own it you have to think that way or nobody will lend you anything. We own alot of tools to large equipment and we expect it both ways however borrow once or twice no problem 3 or more you should look into buying your own.

We borrowed a grader and tore trans suction line off and the operator did not stop until the grader did 50$ hose 600$ ATF and a used 1600$ scavenger pump and a bay tied up in the shop for a month.

Good luck with your buddy , I have a couple buddies on the no lend list but they know my borrowing policy so they saw it coming.

Jon

 

[computeruser]

Wow, an ugly situation.

I don't know what the right answer is. I know what I would do if I destroyed the saw while it was in my care, but that's another matter.

I think that a teardown will be in order to diagnose what happened and why. From that, you'll be able to determine where and in what percentage responsibility should be placed.

For what it's worth, I would not loan out any saw larger than the 50cc class, except to my "saw friends" whose expertise and skill I can count on 100%. Anything bigger just invites trouble and accidents, and is more of a financial risk than I'd care to take.

*This thread reminds me that I need to find a new loaner saw one of these days...

 

[Cedarkerf]

My saws are only loaned with me as operator to prevent damage to saws and safety to operator. Sounds like you'll eat it or loose friend ship I would work on the 50/50 may be the best you can do. Some one that in experienced may have been going WFO into and out of the cut. Where was your max rpm set?

 

[Bermie]

You borrow it, you break it, you fix it, you return it.

50/50 is fair given there are some mods that MIGHT have contributed.

 

[ShoerFast]

Spot on about loaning a saw, just say no!

With that, I do have '1' friend that can use my saws, and he has picked up my saws , with out my being there, to cut mutual friends firewood, never a problem. We been through thick and thin, from braking in half the last pack of Roman noddle soup, to cutting up a couple elk, arguing about how we should cut the back-straps. The type of friend that I would gladely give a saw to.


The way I look at your situation with the modded 880, yes a lot of saw, but is the saw worth more then the friendship?

 

[ray benson]

My loaner is a 16" McCulloch electric saw with a safety chain.
None of the other 10 saws are loaned. Friends and family have asked and if I don't run them then they are not run.
Why did the saw blow? Bad gas/oil mix, someone adjust the carb or did it just let go? Maybe he will split the cost of the repair.

 

[Locoweed]

Hopefully you have learned a lesson about loaning things.:bang:

 

[sawinredneck]

Not even sure where to start on this one!!!!
First off, I would NEVER loan out a saw of that calibre to ANYONE!! I don't loan out my 046, you need it, you NEED me, PERIOD!!!!
Now, an 880, with two tanks of gas in it, out of waranty, I wonder about. A MODDED 880 with only tow tanks of gas through it, I am really iffy about!!!! May not have anything to do with the way it was run at all!!! Might be a mod job gone wrong, we have seen it before!
I think atear down is very much in order before you place blame on ANYONE!! It may well be that the person that modded the saw boned it and will have to eat the cost!!!
I understand you're frustration with you're freind, but for one, I would not have loand out that saw, and I certainly wouldn't have loand out that saw without running it a while and making sure the mods were done right and the saw was good and broken in.
But thats me. And yes, if it were me that borrowed it, I would do everything I could to fix/replace it.

 

[joesawer]

I smell a rat.
If the piston, rod or wrist pin came out of the "block", there is no fixing it, only salvage some parts off of it.
I would really like to see some pics of this saw. You would be amazed at the diagnostic ability of some of the people here.
I spent enough time in Missouri to call "Show Me" on this one.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

It doesn't sound like your friend wrecked your saw, what did he do wrong?

It sounds like your builder messed up, who was he?

When I lend something out, I always state a value. I'll say, "This thing is worth about $500 dollars, if you break it, you bought it."

 

[belgian]

When I lend something out, I always state a value. I'll say, "This thing is worth about $500 dollars, if you break it, you bought it."

That's a great idea and tip. I may want to use that one

 

[Sprig]

Gotta pretty much agree with Sawin' and Mike, most others too. Thats was alot of saw to just leave in someone else's hands to start with, let alone not broken in or fully tested, so it makes it a very tough call and I'd have to agree that a careful analysis of what went wrong is in order. As for what 'friend' is willing to help on, hm, up to him I guess and if it turns out to be nothing not much you can do about that, lesson learned. Dunno. I have about the same policy as most here, I break it I fix it. I have also learned the hard way when loaning out something to friends and the last time cost me a day of carb cleaning/rebuilding 101 (posted here long ago), the upside was that because it got foobarred right away buddy didn't have time to rock the chain, he also supplied me with 'work beverages' which was thoughtful. My new saw nobody else touches on pain of neutering, I run it or it doesn't run. I have an old Pioneer1200A I'll get up and running soon for those that need a loaner (and messy jobs), wish it had a CB though, its old, ugly, and slow, no big heart ache if it inadvertantly gets thrashed.
As to the OP, it would be nice to see some pics of the damage for us of curious mind, as well as knowing the final outcome, does not sound like a fun situation.
My 0.02$ wirth fer da mornin'

 

[aarcuda]

how does one put a piston through the case???

I can think of two ways

1) Did not use any oil in it and ran it for a number of hours like that at wot.

2) was using a saw that was defective.


I say if your friend used oil/gas mixture in it you better go and talk to your mechanic that modded it. he screwed it up. your friend just found it.

Other than that, I cant see how a user with a good saw can put a piston through the case.

 

[stihltech]

niether be

Keep an old Homelite around if you want to lend something.

See it all the time, lent it out, came back broke.

And I always tell them, never lend out your saw. If you do, you go with it.:chainsawguy:

 

[possum398]

If I was to borrow anything from a friend and it broke, I would fix it or buy a new one. When I borry something it always comes back better than when I got it. But the only friends I loan stuff to do the same thing. The last friend I loaned a saw to he returned it with a brand new bar and chain that was better than the one I had on it.

 

[Pitt]

OK felles.... Lots has been said. I don't know most of you, so lets start with this.. My name is George.. Many of you seem interested in the Mod factor of the saw and rightfully. Let me clear that up.. My "modded" is not Your modded.. Its got a ported muffler.. No milling, opening up, nothing..

Second.. The smart guy who wrote that I am irresponsible lending out such a high powered tool.. Let me say again.. I am a guy in New York City I have no right owning this thing either No use really.. I have a small home on an 1/4 acre... lawn looks like a golf course and I own one 8'' diameter tree.. Forget the borrower, I have no business owning this thing and if either of us had more tree experience, its him... I Build cars for a living and I always remember loving those lumberjack competitions on TV when I was a kid. Not that I am older and appreciate the workings of a motor, I got interested in owning or building a race type saw.. I'm not up to that yet, so I am just practicing safely using saws and I purchased my saws all in one shot when I got the fever about 2 seasons ago..
To the "I smell a rat" guy... above is the answer to why a saw so new is out of warranty.. I have no opportunity to use them. they sit here for months and months without being touched.. So It was new, I had a storm here when I bought it, so I got to cut up the 4'' "logs" that fell blocking my street. I think I recall filling the gas during that job so lets say its had a total of 3 refills before it went out on loan. Once done, It just sat in the shed until my buddy wanted to borrow it..

As far as the stipulations, well thats where he, I and most of you have issues..
HE was not there when it broke either.. He gues to spots where he can pick up day workers to help with projects on his property. He said that he left the guy alone and when the day was over he noticed the saw sitting out where he did not leave it. He then went to start the saw and realized that it was very broken.
It went there with proper mix in it.. The color of what came out is consistent with my mix (very dark) and he says that he doubts the guy added fuel .I usually mix the gallon's worth of 2 stroke oil at about .8 of a gal of gas.. I don't mind smoke and I have the theory it will lube more efficiently.. Am I wrong?

Let me say that I care very little for or about money. I have decided to pay for the thing myself. I do care about honor, friendship and doing whats right..
To me, If I need to get to work and you are kind enough to lend me your 1981 Toyota and while in my possession, your Toyota gets its 400th dent in it, You just got yourself a new Toyota, or at least a new paint job. This is a life long friend of mine who I have know since grade school. We are in out 30's now. I Just wanted to know how many of you would call it the saws fault and not offer to fix it, and how many of you feel that if its in your care, its yours to repair..

 

[sawinredneck]

That cleared up some things, but opened up a few more doors.
The fact that the saw was not "opened up", means there is no modder factor to worry about. But it really makes one wonder what did happen to the saw now!! I think pics are needed to help us better understand this!! Normally a saw will just quit running, for something like this to have occured.