Z-133

[stockie]

Hey guys
I am a studentat the Stockbridge school of Agriculture. This pastsemester in class we went over the Z-133, and my Prof. is on the board for it, or something like that. His name is H.P.Dennis Ryan III. And we got the whole run down on it, and he went over the changes that happened this year. I was just wondering how many of the real world people follow what it says, or if its something that most Arborist ignore. Thanks alot

 

[Eric E.]

Stockie, I would imagine that Dennis explained to you that Z-133 is what OSHA uses for writing violations. Professionals use the standards but then this is a field where 90% of the businesses aren't Professionals. Your eye opener will be when you look for a job and find out that most guys have never read a book on arboriculture.
Eric

 

[Ray Morneau]

Hey, Stockie -- Eric is right - you'll find alot ot unskilled workers in this profession.

But what makes it a Profession (capital P) is guys who do pay attention to the academic side, the professional side, the ANSI Standards, the OSHA code, the Code(s) of Ethics, ....

Yes, some of us writing specs call for ISA Certified Arborists to be supervising Certified Tree Workers and insist that published standards be followed -- absent pre-approved alternatives, I want ANSI A300 and Z133 followed. (No, nobody has ever shown me better standards to see if I would pre-approve them - but I have to build in equivalency clauses or the attorneys shudder.) (It also allows for a congenial discussion of the differences if someone produces and old set of NAA specs -- but of course the more modern text wins.)

And, yes, more and more, here in the Bay Area (SF) not just cities and governmental entites but also homeowners are beginning to look to what the standards mean for the care of their trees. As an informal guess, I average three people a day that I discuss/mention ANSI A300 standards to/with.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Ray and Eric,
Well said. I would like to add that the sooner you put the capitol P in professional, the sooner your profession will be successful, if that makes sense.
It should also be noted that ANSI Standards are only a starting point for safety, a point to build from or minimun standard.

 

[treeclimber165]

Idunno

I perform my job to the best of my ability, applying what I've heard and read over the last 17 years. But the closest I've ever been to actually SEEING the Z is the pre-draft that I had gotten from a website and had on my other computer (it's gone now). I'm not going to start a pizzing match, but I'm still of the opinion that few Arborists are going to PAY for a copy of the rules. The sooner that the Z is made publicly available, the sooner Arborists will actually start studying it and applying it. And customers will be able to hold the contractor up to the standards if they actually have access to them.
Even after being in this field all my adult life, I didn't even find out where the standards are available until last year. To expect a homeowner/property owner to buy/obtain the standards to make sure their Arborist is doing proper work is asinine. Until the NAA and ISA actually start promoting proper tree care instead of selling it, we will not have consistent quality in tree care.

You started a thread to discuss the Z, but how many here have actually read it? Or have a copy they can put their hands on?

That's MY 2¢. I promise I'll try not to argue when someone disagrees with me on this.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

It never ceases to amaze me how isolated people are in this industry.

 

[treeclimber165]

And keep in mind that the Arborists that read this thread on this forum are among the most 'connected' in the industry. To get a better idea of how things work in the real world outside this safe little bubble, go drive through some neighborhoods until you spot some guys doing tree work out of a pickup truck. Stop and ask THEM if they have a copy of the Z.

WE are supposed to be the ones spreading the word about proper tree care, by words and by example. If I were to approach some guy spiking some trims and/or topping trees and suggest that he stop and go find somewhere to BUY the standards, I would probably get his chainsaw inserted into one or more orifices of my body. If I could walk up and hand him a copy of the Z, there is a chance he might actually read it.

 

[Oxman]

Hi Stockie,

Glad you're taking the Arboriculture degree program seriously. It will soon be obvious what an incredible advantage it is to have been given an overview of our profession. I would like you to run down those changes that happened this year. I have not seen anything published in 2002. Sounds like you have access to state of the art information.

I do regard what we do as a profession, as it is highly specialized, we write our own specs (diagnosis & prescription) and we charge the client what we decide the job is worth.

It is futile to worry needlessly about what the other guy does to trees. I don't mean to say not to keep market research as a foundation of your business. Just regard poor quality service within our industry as a mark of distinction between you and the competition.

As far as not wanting to pay for the standards books, I dismiss that arguement after about a half-second. An arborist can not make even one dollar ethically without being in compliance with ANSI.

The tree owner assumes the standards are being adhered to. They would regard anyone who fails in this way to be informed about what the industry consensus has stated is standard practice as a derelict, rogue shyster who fraudulently misrepresents their services. People can recognize scam artists when armed with criteria like ANSI.

 

[Tim Gardner]

As long as I got my duct tape, ladder and circular saw I don’t need no stinkin’ Z.

As soon as I get an extra $20 I plan to order a copy from Sherrill. I plan to make "myself" lots of "back-up" copies just in case I loose the original.

I fully understand spending $200.00 on a saddle to protect myself but I really have a problem spending $20.00 for a Nickels worth of paper. Organizations pass out condoms and needles to protect druggies and perverts from themselves but will charge us, the people that actually make a difference in this world, for protection which is cheaper than those condoms and needles. Apparently whores and crack heads are more valuable than arborists.

 

[treeclimber165]

Originally posted by Oxman
........The tree owner assumes the standards are being adhered to. They would regard anyone who fails in this way to be informed about what the industry consensus has stated is standard practice as a derelict, rogue shyster who fraudulently misrepresents their services. People can recognize scam artists when armed with criteria like ANSI.

And just what 'people' would be armed with criteria like ANSI when most of the guys performing the work don't even have it?

If you are insinuating that I am a 'scam artist' or a 'derilict rogue shyster' since I don't own a ????ing $20 piece of paper, then I take offense. I've run crews for a few companies, including a nationally known outfit. If any of them had a copy of the 'Z', it was never offered to the guys actually out doing the work. The plain fact is, the current distribution method does not work. Sure, the big companies have copies, where they get filed in the office and never seen or used by the guys doing the climbing. Like Daniel said, I'm fairly confident that I am generally in compliance. But I have no way of even finding out if I am in compliance without paying some schysters for a copy of the laws which they will use to govern me.

The original post asked if we Arborists IGNORED the 'Z'. Maybe I do, and maybe I don't. I follow what I think it might say. All my life support gear is rated and gets inspected every time I use it. All my pruning is performed to the best of my ability and to Certified Arborist standards (I was certified 8 years ago). I'm the only climber I know in this area that wears a climbing helmet (the big outfits make the climbers wear hardhats without chinstraps). There may be some technical double-talk 'gotcha's in the Z which I may not know about but I do my best to work safely. If that makes me a 'shyster', then I guess I'm in the wrong profession. Maybe one day I'll be perfect like you. :angry2:

 

[treeclimber165]

Originally posted by Oxman
It is futile to worry needlessly about what the other guy does to trees. I don't mean to say not to keep market research as a foundation of your business. Just regard poor quality service within our industry as a mark of distinction between you and the competition.

Between atitudes like this and organizations like NAA and ISA squeezing our gonads for every nickle they can get, don't expect any major changes in our industry any time soon. The public will see a hundred hacked trees for every tree you prune properly. And the vast majority will look at the tree you pruned and say it needs to be elevated for clearance then topped. Without getting the word out to the tree guys who are ignorant of the standards or the customers who constantly ask to have their trees topped, the hacks will continue to serve an ignorant public. I hope you are happy in your protected little world, wish I could work there.

I try my best to talk customers out of whacking off every limb over their roof on a daily basis. I'm lucky to convince about 30%. I climb for guys who follow behind me with a polesaw and try to remove any green limbs I might leave in the interior of the trees. After I work some long low tips, they often come by with a power pruner and whack off the ends I just pruned. I do the best I can within the environment in which I work. A $25 piece of paper won't help much. Change comes slow for most.

If you were truly interested in trees instead of just your own self, you might just see where your attitude is just as damaging to our industry as the hacks. YOU know better, but think it should be priviledged information. Let the hacks destroy a hundred trees for every one you prune properly. Then come back 5 years later and see where someone topped your tree. How is that helping anything?

 

[NickfromWI]

ANSI should be free

After considering both sides of the argument (or at least that to which i've been exposed), I've come to the conclusion that the ANSI standards SHOULD be available free....perhaps even online.

If it was just a committee coming up with standards that were merely suggestions... they should have every right to try to sell them. They put their hard work and expertise in to it, they deserve pay. However, when OSHA starts saying we MUST follow ANSI, it sounds like OSHA should fund the committe and start providing us with a means of obtaining free copies.

Brian had a good point when he said that it would be nice for those "in the know" to have a couple extra copies in the truck to hand out to hacks that we see on a day to day basis.

Free copies would be better for the trees, better for the clients, better for the hack companies, and better for those of us in the know.

That being said, my copy is already on order. I tried to get it through the library, but that didn't work out!

love
nick

 

[Treeman14]

ALL of my employees receive a copy of the Z when they are hired. (Sorry, Brian. Subs don't get one.) They also receive a company policy manual, safety rules, drug policy and drug testing info. I can't MAKE them read these things, but we do review them during safety meetings and they are available to all employees. Yes, this costs money, but as an employer, I am morally and ethically, if not legally, bound to provide as much safety and training as possible to provide a healthy work environment. It's false economy to spend $200 on a saddle, $100 on a climbing line, $20 biners, etc. and then forego the relatively cheap $20 standard for the work you do.

 

[Treeman14]

BTW, I think its ludicrous to expect a homeowner to obtain and read the Z. Do you read the ANSI standards for electricians or A/C, or plumbers before you have work done on your house? ALL industries have published standards which are expected to be followed by reputable businesses. A smart consumer can usually determine how reputable a company is with a little bit of research. For those who are too lazy or too busy to get some information before purchasing a product or service, caveat emptor. (Let the buyer beware.)

 

[coydog]

Your argument comparing arborists to plumbers might hold water if tree work were not by it's very nature, highly subjective. shoddy plumbing is obvious, hack tree work is often times what the customer wants and expects. That being said, it is impractical to expect homeowners to comprehensively read ansi standards, my suggestion, pop the 20 bucks and compose a leaflet explaining the most relevant aspects to the homeowner complete with links and references, as well as carrying an unabridged copy with you in the field.
I do, however, think it is shameful that the information is not publicly available on-line and/or through public libraries. ALL ansi standards should be available for free viewing to the public, and there might even be less hack plumbing out there if it was!

 

[Stumper]

Hmmm ..... I don't have a copy of the Z but have read it . I do have a copy of A300 (standards I was adhering to before I ever read them) We can't blame ANSI (a private orginization ) for charging for their product. If OSHA is going to enforce anything (Ja, dis iz der freedom) then it sees reasonable that they should publish the rules.
With all due respect Oxman.-Working without a copy of the Z is unethical?????? Man, all those unethical people in the past who did't carry someone else's written ideas of how to be safe! I will agree that there is a lack of ethics in jumping into something with no idea of what you are doing or the potential consequences, but the Z is just a safety standard. Within itself it provides exceptions to bow to experience of the practitioner.
Incidently this imformation is available on-line-just not from ANSI.

P.S. Oxman, I apologize! I just reread thjings and realized that I misrepresented you. You actually said compliance rather than possessing a copy of the standards. I jumped on things a little prematurely. Sorry.

 

[TREETX]

Are they copyrighted?? I quote them often in my proposals.

The customer should have a good understanding of what quality tree care is. We need quality trade orgs that do more than plug their books at high prices. Why should you pay to get a CEU? I can understand seminars, etc or if you are too dim to seek the latest info and research on your own, but why can't I buy a book that isn't on their "list"? Is it only continuing education if I read "their" books?? I have a university degree in this area and have actually done the work in 4 states and 3 countries. Yes, I read their books plus the other gems I can find. But these orgs can get bent for all I care. Their goal is to make money off me, not for me. I would pay an extra $200 a year if they would promote the trade and educate the public instead of preaching to the choir for a fee.

I have the Z for free. Whether you use it as a bible to work by or not, you should know it well. You should get your hands on as much info as possible. That combined with day after day and year after year of observation is how we learn about and deliver quality tree care.

Yes, we are very isolated, without the presence of any REAL trade orgs that promote the trade or have a certification requirement that is more than a simple literacy test, it will be hard to have change. Passing the ISA cert is not some major achievement, it is just an exam that separates you from the droolers.

Take the hook - please convince me to think otherwise

 

[Nickrosis]

Wow, good topic. I don't want to seem like I think I'm God coming down from heaven, but I want to try to clarify a couple of things. Think of me as the punk kid who thinks he knows it all, but you just sit back and roll your eyes the moment I look away.

"Until the NAA and ISA actually start promoting proper tree care instead of selling it, we will not have consistent quality in tree care."

Cheap shot. Bring that up somewhere else, on topic. The NAA and ISA are not ANSI (although you can re-arrange letters...).

"Never seen it, or read it. However, I am sure I practice it"

Rrriiiiight.

"To get a better idea of how things work in the real world outside this safe little bubble, go drive through some neighborhoods until you spot some guys doing tree work out of a pickup truck. Stop and ask THEM if they have a copy of the Z."

We should be bringing those people up to the next level.

"As far as not wanting to pay for the standards books, I dismiss that arguement after about a half-second. An arborist can not make even one dollar ethically without being in compliance with ANSI."

Agreed. Doesn't mean you have to own it, but you should have read it recently so that you know you're following it.

"...I really have a problem spending $20.00 for a Nickels worth of paper."

You're paying for the paper and for the entire ANSI organization! Money doesn't fall out of the sky at the ANSI headquarters - they need to pay their own bills, too.

"However, when OSHA starts saying we MUST follow ANSI, it sounds like OSHA should fund the committe and start providing us with a means of obtaining free copies."

Suppose you wrote something about knot-tying that the military decided it really liked. They then ask you for 5 million copies - free. That would be unfair! It's unfair to ask a non-profit organization to outfit the millions of tree people with those books. It's not fair to put them on the Internet so people never buy them. I think the price is too high, but it isn' out of hand.

"ALL of my employees receive a copy of the Z when they are hired. "

Sweet.

"BTW, I think its ludicrous to expect a homeowner to obtain and read the Z."

Sure, but they would buy it if you screwed up something. I know their lawyer would be quoting it in court.

"Are they copyrighted?? I quote them often in my proposals."

You can quote the Z but not in its entirety without permission.

I'm out. That's all I have to say.

Nickrosis

 

[NickfromWI]

post from nickrosis:

{However, when OSHA starts saying we MUST follow ANSI, it sounds like OSHA should fund the committe and start providing us with a means of obtaining free copies."}
Suppose you wrote something about knot-tying that the military decided it really liked. They then ask you for 5 million copies - free. That would be unfair! It's unfair to ask a non-profit organization to outfit the millions of tree people with those books. It's not fair to put them on the Internet so people never buy them. I think the price is too high, but it isn' out of hand.

nickrosis- i think you missed my point on this one. to take your example. if i wrote a knot tying manual (133), and the military (OSHA) was going to require all the marines (us) to have a copy of it, then the MILITARY should buy them, and give them out. Just like I think if OSHA used their funds to mass produce the Z, subsidize the ANSI committee, then distribute the Z to tree care people.

so clip that to your saddle and climb it up a tree!

love
nick

 

[TREETX]

Like JPS said, we are alone (isolated) that means we are going to have to educated ourselves by what ever means necessary. You don't have to buy it, you don't even have to abide by it, but you should at least read it.

I never said the isa should give free books, I just don't think we should have to buy those books to get ceus. If I read or conduct research on my own, isn't that a continuing education? Here comes a tangent - I'll just stop now