Echo CS-590 timberwolf vs. Echo CS-600P

[mountainlake]

I went in to my local dealer (carries ECHO and Stihl) a few days ago to look at the CS-590. He had just sold his last one earlier that day but will have more in about a week. But I did have a very interesting conversation with him and the service manager about the question of fuel and how ECHO saws are tuned by the dealer. It seems that ECHO specifies that the H & L needle valves are to be adjusted using a tach with the saw under no load using high grade fuel (preferably their PowerFuel, I suppose). It seems that fuel quality is becoming more and more of an issue, and I was told that ECHO recently sent a memo to their dealers and service stations that any saw that came in with fuel in it with octane rating below 89 or phase separation was not covered under warranty. The ethanol (and perhaps other additives) in standard automotive fuel is really affecting the stability of the 2-cycle oil added into the fuel. Even stabilizer doesn't help for long. Since a 2-cycle engine relies on that oil for all of its lubrication, it only takes a little gas (or worse yet, water) with no oil in it to ruin the engine. There are many reports of people who have bought good chainsaws, like the CS-400 and CS-590/600 that have burned up from lack of lubrication after only a few hours of use. They all claim to have used good 2-cycle oil with "new" gas from the local automotive service station. And, of course, they were all upset to find out that the warranty doesn't consider such damage to be a manufacturer's defect. Since I want my new saw to run for a long time, and always when I need it, I am willing to pay extra for quality fuel, although I too wish it were less expensive. And perhaps it will be as the demand grows and larger containers become more available.

There is some interesting information about this on the VP Racing Fuels website
http://www.vp-sef.com/index.php/products/pro-max
wherein they point out that the 2-cycle engine of a chainsaw like the CS-590/600 runs under conditions (HP/pound, RPM, cylinder temperatures) often more severe than the highest performance race car engines, especially since such 2-cycle engines are air-cooled. VP now has a premixed fuel especially formulated for high performance chainsaw engines called VP Pro Max with 97 octane, no ethanol, and Motul synthetic oil (710 2T?). I have a dealer not too far away and I will find out what it costs. The regular VP Small Engine Fuel with 94 octane, no ethanol, and Motul oil costs about $6.00/qt in the standard 8-pack. All of their fuels are also available in 1-gallon, 5-gallon, and 54-gallon containers for larger users.

Starting last year, I now use TruFuel 50:1 premix with 92 octane, no ethanol, and synthetic oil certified to JASO FD, etc., which I get for about $5.00/qt in standard 6-packs at Lowes. (Supposedly it is made by the same company that makes the Stihl MotoMix in the USA.) My smaller CS-330 tree saw starts and runs noticeably better on it. And, of course, in the tree is where I care the most that it starts easily all of the time.

I'll post what I find out about the VP Pro Max once I visit the dealer. I'll also post my test results with the CS-590 once I get it.

Happy cutting to all!

I've bought quite a few burnt up CS400 saws off Ebay, at least 95% were burnt up from lean tuning not bad gas. Those that were to lean most likely were HD saws or from a dealer that didn't do his job. There's way too many crooked dealers out there in every business that want to get paid from both the consumer and the warranty so they blame it on bad gas which works for them. Steve

 

[woodchipper95]

So will a dealer tune it for the customer with a special tool?
Or can it be done with the ear (by someone other than me bc I'm not to knowledgeable when it comes to tuning) and would hate to blow a saw because of improper tune.

 

[jdhacker]

http://www.echo-usa.com/getattachment/90d6a91c-df0b-410c-b029-52b0a7e4b831/CS-590 Timber Wolf.pdf

Looks like the echo is a good saw, but it's heaver, has the biggest engine with the same power as the stihl, and cost about the same.

 

[larry lee]

I do agree that having the carburetor set too lean only compounds any other causes of inadequate lubrication and we all seem to agree that most new chainsaws are set too lean, presumably because the manufacturer has to certify that the emissions requirements were met when the saw left the factory. What I find interesting are the following carburetor adjustment instructions from the ECHO CS-590 Chain Saw Manual. If I interpret the instructions correctly, they say "Every unit is run at the factory and the carburetor is set in compliance with Emission Regulations" and then in step 4 it says "Turn “H” speed needle counterclockwise (CCW) to stop" (i.e., to as rich as the stop will let you go. And, of course, we all know how to go further if need be.) So it appears that ECHO is saying that they also recommend operation with a richer mixture than the factory setting. Those who assume that the saw comes out of the box set perfectly for a long healthy life (as opposed to being set to meet the emissions requirements) may be in for an unpleasant surprise. That is a hard way to get educated about such things. Having a dealer with good service is definitely a blessing.

CARBURETOR ADJUSTMENT
Every unit is run at the factory and the carburetor is set in compliance with Emission Regulations. In addition, the carburetor is equipped with “H” (High Speed) and “L” (Low Speed) needle adjustment limiters that prevent settings outside acceptable limits.
1. Before adjusting carburetor clean or replace air filter and muffler “Spark Arrestor Screen”.
2. Make sure the bar and chain are properly adjusted.
3. Start engine and run several minutes to bring to operating temperature. Flash choke twice during warm-up to clear any air from the fuel system.
4. Stop engine. Turn “H” speed needle counterclockwise (CCW) to stop. Turn “L” speed needle midway between full clockwise (CW) stop and CCW stop.
5. Idle Speed Adjustment: Start engine, turn “Idle” speed adjustment screw CW until the saw chain begins to turn, then turn screw out CCW until the saw chain stops turning. Turn screw out, CCW, an additional 1/4 turn.
6. Accelerate to full throttle for 2 - 3 seconds to clear any excess fuel in the engine, then return to idle. Accelerate engine to full throttle to check for smooth transition from idle to high speed. If engine hesitates turn “L” needle CCW 1/8 turn and repeat acceleration. Continue adjustment until smooth acceleration results.
7. Check idle speed and reset if necessary as described in item 5. If a tachometer is available idle speed should be set to 2800 r/min.

I will measure the factory setting on my saw before the dealer adjusts it.

 

[Miles86]

Hi- Looks like using a special fuel is going to become normal operating procedure for small engines. I would love to see gas stations have a dedicated small engines fuel pump. I have a CAM2 dealer near me, no ethanol.

Gasahol can be used safely if you retune the engine richer and use an alcohol compatible 2 stroke oil, like the RC model guys use. Castor Oil, some Klotz brand oils, Blendzall (castor), these are going to protect great with alcohol (oxygenated fuels). Trade off is more frequent de-carboning and getting to buy spark plugs more often.

Some synthetics and mineral oils are NOT compatible with ethanol alcohol. Never mix castor with mineral oil.

 

[zogger]

So will a dealer tune it for the customer with a special tool?
Or can it be done with the ear (by someone other than me bc I'm not to knowledgeable when it comes to tuning) and would hate to blow a saw because of improper tune.

At a bare minimum you need that H as far CCW/rich as you can get it with the limiters in place.

And I think echo gives ya a clue with oil mixture ratio. Notice on their six gallon mix oil bottle they have a line for 50:1, 2.6 ounces, but then there is the next line up at 40:1, 3.2 ounces per gallon. Clue! They publish a recommended 50:1 but stick that extra line there. My, isn't that interesting.

Me, I would run the 40:1 at least.

I toasted a 600p running at the stock as sold screw adjustment, and 50:1. Ain't gonna do that again.

 

[Miles86]

Got that right, never understand the idea of being stingy with oil. 20:1 for me. Oil is cheap. (well sorta of cheap).
Has anyone run a cs-600 next to the new cs-620? I'm not giving up my cs-670, but I really getting hard not to drool at my echo dealer lately.

 

[john damps]

why would any body try to save pennies on gas,i buy 2-4 gallons of chainsaw gas at a time the difference is maybe .60cents i use startron gas treatment,on saws,lawnmower,snowblower,it only hirts on my 21 foot 250 horse power skeeter with a yammaha 250 ho 4 stroke,than i biuy 30-50 gallon, that hurts still use startron it take the waterand ethenal out completly,when using a chain saw dont buy cheap gas,it only causes problems,had a 47 foot cherry crush my left shin -tendins-mucels-and ligments,luckly did not break shin bone, but down for a while,ill get back to all when i pick up my echo timberwolf,i cant wait,

 

[zogger]

why would any body try to save pennies on gas,i buy 2-4 gallons of chainsaw gas at a time the difference is maybe .60cents i use startron gas treatment,on saws,lawnmower,snowblower,it only hirts on my 21 foot 250 horse power skeeter with a yammaha 250 ho 4 stroke,than i biuy 30-50 gallon, that hurts still use startron it take the waterand ethenal out completly,when using a chain saw dont buy cheap gas,it only causes problems,had a 47 foot cherry crush my left shin -tendins-mucels-and ligments,luckly did not break shin bone, but down for a while,ill get back to all when i pick up my echo timberwolf,i cant wait,

Ouch! man, that sucks! Heal up good, don't push it early and make it worse.

I agree on the fuel, I pay a scosh more than 4 a gallon for 93 octane non ethanol. I ain't running the cheap gas if I can help it.

 

[john damps]

Ouch! man, that sucks! Heal up good, don't push it early and make it worse.

I agree on the fuel, I pay a scosh more than 4 a gallon for 93 octane non ethanol. I ain't running the cheap gas if I can help it.

zogger is a smart man.thanks for the leg concern [spent last tues in hospitol for 10 hrs] dp u use startron? it works great never have a feul problem

 

[demc570]

why would any body try to save pennies on gas,i buy 2-4 gallons of chainsaw gas at a time the difference is maybe .60cents i use startron gas treatment,on saws,lawnmower,snowblower,it only hirts on my 21 foot 250 horse power skeeter with a yammaha 250 ho 4 stroke,than i biuy 30-50 gallon, that hurts still use startron it take the waterand ethenal out completly,when using a chain saw dont buy cheap gas,it only causes problems,had a 47 foot cherry crush my left shin -tendins-mucels-and ligments,luckly did not break shin bone, but down for a while,ill get back to all when i pick up my echo timberwolf,i cant wait,

ouch---hope you heal quick,that had to hurt,makes me cringe!

 

[zogger]

zogger is a smart man.thanks for the leg concern [spent last tues in hospitol for 10 hrs] dp u use startron? it works great never have a feul problem

Nope, just the good gas and I happen to use the echo powerblend mix. Started at 50:1, that didn't work out well, saws just seem to run badly and they got too hot for my liking, no matter the tune, 40:1 is much better, just recently went 32:1 just to see if that is better or worse. I'll give it some gallons in various wood before I make a decision on that. In the olden days I just used the same 30 weight for mix oil and bar oil, mix was the "glug glug glug, maybe another glug" method per gallon... HAHAHAH! it worked, too! Little stinky, but it worked...

The echo oil has stabilizer in it. I purposely left a tank of it in a cheap saw, it ran at over a year hanging around, that's good enough for me.

 

[john damps]

good info; thanks boy my 029 super cuts great, i love that saw i hope the 590 timberwolf is as good'

 

[7sleeper]

Get well soon!

7

 

[john damps]

well just wanted to let all know,[my leg is better but still screwed up ,crushed by big cherry log] i picked up my new echo 590 , the dealer had the wrong bar 18inch timberwolf, i order, a 20inch bar,so they put a prfessonal oregon bar on chaineged the chain and out the door i went total price with tax 441.39 saw was 399.99 and im tellinkg you from years of experience,[ started running saws in 1975] this saw cuts sooooo fast,i had to cut 2 face cords i had to guys carrying wood to splitting area,they had to stop me in ten min, i had well over 3 face cord cut, iy just fell thought the logs,20inch cherry, 18-20 inch black walnut,little ash 22inch, and had no fatige at all and only ran 3quarter throttle, cuts faster than my 029super,cuts faster than huski 61,and my old 268 isnt even close, not sure about my 044mag,that has 28 inch bar,[not fare to compare] but sure seems like echo is faster,this saw is unbeliveable,if your in the market for 55-60cc buy the echo 590 pluse you get a 5 year warrenty,buy from good dealer with service dept,not a big box store, i have 3 orders today will be cutting today,ill keep in touch

 

[jdhacker]

Gee glad to hear your ok John, the saw sounds nice!!

 

[7sleeper]

No pics!? It never happened!



Congratulation about your new saw!

7

 

[moody]

Good deal on getting the saw. But don't run any saw 3/4 throttle.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

 

[john damps]

ran almost 2 tanks throught today the thing cuts awsome i used to be very stihl loyal i own many husky ran them today, people just get hooked on one brand and thank thats the best, i own an excavating company, john deere wanted me to please demo there 700 dozer, i have a 450 lgp and a cat d 5 so i tried the deere 700 lgp after just renting a cat d6k ,i was clearing 48 acers that 700mlgp pushed so much more than the cat d6k they should be embarised, my next dig dozer will be a jd 700 lgp, you have to try different producs and echo has excellent stock products, i may buy another or the 562xp, but is it worth 300 dollors more?

 

[Mastermind]

I just finished porting another 600P. I'm damned impressed with those saws.