Humboldtdan
ArboristSite Lurker
I hope you never purchase a Glock or ar15 clone or generic viagra when you cant get it up. You want to be an ahole, fine, but you are the kind of guy who only acts that way behind a screen. Grow up
I love my chinese saw
- Thread starter samaritan
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Pharma isn't the greatest example being they are regulated and must pay royalties to the brand name drug they are duplicating - which again, is still not a direct copy.
Glock clones are mainly in the same bag as chainsaw clones. Cheapened down components that mostly end up getting replaced with better quality (usually Glock) components. One of the bigger clone companies, Shadow, had (maybe still has?) a poor reputation with their clips. Lots of reported failures after shooting only a few hundred rounds. Something as simple as a clip they couldn't get right.
Glock clones are mainly in the same bag as chainsaw clones. Cheapened down components that mostly end up getting replaced with better quality (usually Glock) components. One of the bigger clone companies, Shadow, had (maybe still has?) a poor reputation with their clips. Lots of reported failures after shooting only a few hundred rounds. Something as simple as a clip they couldn't get right.
Chris1044
ArboristSite Member
Pissing match aside, I've spent a fair ammount of time in China as an engineer for OEs wanting to either break into or put production there. I been involved in patents and legit IP theft by Chinese (verbatim patent filings in China on behalf of chinese entities).
Culturally, they almost pride themselves on being able to "remake" whatever for cheaper, faster, and then pump them out. Hell around 2010 they had an F150 clone for the next gen F150 before Ford even announced it to the public. It's a point of pride for them. Their government also fosters the theft aspect, and especially from the IP standpoint because it enables their own population over foreigners.
Can the Chinese make quality products?? Absolutely! And usually those products have the 2D print details and quality check operations that yield those results. Often times cheap knock offs are what they are - and as long as you recognize that then there's no issue.
My thought...irrespective of what anyone reading this does or purchases China will continue to "steal" IP and remake product. Until governments make it clear this isn't acceptable it will continue. So why not leverage it if you can - don't want to kill your ms461 milling? Spend 300 bucks on an 066 knockoff and get going...
Culturally, they almost pride themselves on being able to "remake" whatever for cheaper, faster, and then pump them out. Hell around 2010 they had an F150 clone for the next gen F150 before Ford even announced it to the public. It's a point of pride for them. Their government also fosters the theft aspect, and especially from the IP standpoint because it enables their own population over foreigners.
Can the Chinese make quality products?? Absolutely! And usually those products have the 2D print details and quality check operations that yield those results. Often times cheap knock offs are what they are - and as long as you recognize that then there's no issue.
My thought...irrespective of what anyone reading this does or purchases China will continue to "steal" IP and remake product. Until governments make it clear this isn't acceptable it will continue. So why not leverage it if you can - don't want to kill your ms461 milling? Spend 300 bucks on an 066 knockoff and get going...
I didn't join a forum to stick up for a country that hates us. You did.
If fairness, you might be surprised by how many countries in the world hate us, at least at the government level.
No, I doubt I would.
Humboldtdan
ArboristSite Lurker
Go f yoirself I aint sticking up for them. Blowhard
Going back about fifty years I only bought Stihl saws because they were the best or at least that was what I thought. I did not care about the cost thinking they would last forever then rebuild them. Then I was introduced to Husqvarna so I bought a few of those and was happy with them. Then I wore a couple of them out and started rebuilding them at more than the cost of the new saw. When I bought OEM bearings seals gaskets pistons cylinders I started noticing that I had double what I originally paid for the saw and was still happy with them. I knew the saws inside and out. Then the EPA came along with the restrictions on the carbs and electronical additions. One saw was about a year old when the thing would not start found out it was full of water. I had planned in it needing service so had a spare carb kit. To my dismay it took all day to get the carb off. I threw it in the back of my truck never to touch it again. A few weeks latter found some decent looking Huskies on sale so I bought three of them. They all lasted about a year and half with the same thing happening. Some body Emailed me about a aftermarket kit and could not believe how cheap they were. So I bought about ten of them and could not be more happy with them. I can change a carb in a hours time and be back in operation. No OEM saw can meet that performance period. I am getting ready to buy a four pack and call it a day because next year will not be able to buy any saws. At seventy I am not sure how many saws I can wear out but do not want to mess around with finicky saws when I would rather be cutting.
I do not hate the Chinese but am quite ashamed that a USA company can not compete with a Chinese company. Why are there so many benefits for workers that would rather get food stamps or unemployment. So yes I would rather buy a USA item if they made them. Like most companies saw manufacturer look around who can contract for the part they need and then order them. Same with car companies and electronics. So for now I have an array of clone saws that out performs any thing else that is available. Thanks
I do not hate the Chinese but am quite ashamed that a USA company can not compete with a Chinese company. Why are there so many benefits for workers that would rather get food stamps or unemployment. So yes I would rather buy a USA item if they made them. Like most companies saw manufacturer look around who can contract for the part they need and then order them. Same with car companies and electronics. So for now I have an array of clone saws that out performs any thing else that is available. Thanks
xraydaniel
Addicted to ArboristSite
I think this is such a nuanced and complex issue of globalization and decades of disinflation.
We as Americans have enjoyed a very long and prosperous few decades of ultra low rates, cheap labor, and cheap goods due to the power of having a reserve currency. Unfortunately through expensive labor, expensive materials, with a debased currency, and dwindling resources we will see a new age brought in whereby the resource laden nations that supplied us will have the upperhand versus us who have a nation now based almost entirely of financial instruments. It will become increasingly difficult for Americans to live the life of “living beyond your means” with a credit based system. Nonetheless, once those challenges are faced, we in the US should find a much more prosperous future.
It’s not about the laborers trying to reach a higher level. It’s a game of chess between the elite classes that consolidate all the wealth in each business cycle. We are the plebs trying to eke out a living better than our forbears.
samaritan
ArboristSite Operative
You're so manly, it knows its place dude
That wasn't even directed to you, learn to read.
samaritan
ArboristSite Operative
Sorry your highness
Sorry, missed this one. Pretty sure that Rigid didn't develop the first circular saw and Craftsman didn't develop the original combination wrench. If you really want to complain about parts interchangeability and straight out duplication, lets talk about the Taurus 92 series of pistols which were built on the production equipment that Beretta sold them after the patents expired.
You have to remember that a patent and a copywrite are 2 different things. You can't publish a document that I have a copywrite on and call it your own. A patent, on the other hand, has an expiration date. If you have the patent, and choose not to renew it, other companies can take advantage of it without paying you to do so. This is not a new concept, and it certainly didn't start with the Chinese. The Chinese are good at it because they make so many parts for so many companies. As such, when a patent expires, they know about it and are first in line to take advantage of it if they want (I'm pretending here that they aren't actively violating international patent laws where it suits them).
Realistically, the fact that I can buy replacement parts from my Stihl dealership is a huge bonus in multiple ways. Its makes things easier for me AND it puts some of that money I saved into my local economy.
As far as Chinese plants only making good parts for other companies, that's a misguided statement at best. One thing that all asian companies have done a good job at for the past 70 years is respond to their customer's demands. Japanese cars used to be considered junk and now they outlast the big 3 by a wide margin. I routinely get over 300K out of a Honda or Toyota. Honda small engines are literally legendary, and Japan made almost every diesel engine for <40hp tractors for several decades. Korean imports started off the same way, cheap junk. Now their exports are typically superior to our domestic products.
As others have alluded to, this conversation really isn't about Chinese chainsaws. It's about why America struggles to compete on the global manufacturing stage. Why do we allow people to make decisions just because they have a degree when the only thing that degree taught them how to do was generate a timeline and a PowerPoint presentation? I've personally witnessed this process bankrupt and destroy at least 5 major (multi-billion dollar) corporations. I would absolutely love to always buy American so long as it ment that I was buying products that were truly made in America from companies that were efficiently making the best products. At this time, buying American just means that I'm financially encouraging companies to continue to do what they are doing. In most cases, I think that's bad for our country.
samaritan
ArboristSite Operative
A lot of good ponts. I have an 07 honda odyssey that has 175k on it, burns no oil, and goes like a rocket, that engine will go at least to 300k
sliceoflife
ArboristSite Operative
I will state that a lot of the conversation rooting from "us" standpoint... while we are majority US members certainly, there may be international members... even Chinese members. With that said, I'm still undecided about my Chinese saw, but it definitely strikes me as much better than many are claiming. Hasn't exploded and killed me yet. It's not without problems that I trust a $2000 stihl or Husk wouldn't have and yes if I wind up looking like I'll be putting many thousands of hours on it, I will upgrade to a lighter, safer, newer, better supported saw. To try out milling and see if it's something I plan to continue... dropping $500 on chinese copies vs $3000 on brand name tools is the difference between trying a chainsaw mill or not for me. So there's no doubt in my mind that these Chinese saws have their place.
Genuine zenoah vs Clone... just had to see what all the hype was about. Port sizes were off, as seen by the blue outline. Internally the port was also smaller and off set. Missing alignment tabs on the intake side and again, not getting the intake or stratto ports quite right, which was compounded by the stratto port being completely blocked off and about 10% of the intake port being blocked by the gasket not being cut right. Tranferes were sloppy with casting flash left inside. The transfer tunnel closest to the intake by the transfer cover was at least 50% smaller then the oem cylinder. Transfer upper and lower ports were at least consistent in height. Squish measured 0.044" where the factory zenoah was 0.024". But hey its a $180.00 saw so what do you expect. As of this moment I have about 5 hours just fixing the ports.
Say what you will this isn't quality work, and this is supposed ro be one of the "better" clones out there.
Say what you will this isn't quality work, and this is supposed ro be one of the "better" clones out there.
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I’m all thumbs down on the China junk guys. I know some of you love the prices, but there’s more to it than a momentary bargain... the Chinese steal EVERYTHING, and innovate NOTHING!
xraydaniel
Addicted to ArboristSite
That’s too bad bro. Imho the models I have have been tops. Just goes to show the pig behind the lipstick could be a feral hog or an Ibérico.
Haven’t seen these Zenoahs for sale so maybe not made anymore?
So the old zenoah designed cylinder had alignment tabs, round exhaust port, and a larger intake port. When they went to the design for the 543xp/gz4350 they did away with the intake offset, went to smaller ports, offset exhaust port, and did away the alignment tabs. I had a 543xp and have a couple of redmax gz400s that I pulled the cylinders on to check out what the differences are.
They still make them just not a lot of places out there selling them, in the u.s.a. they're called redmax.
