A well sharpened chain?

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chipper1

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Not quite sure I understand. Are you saying use the above tool and the Pferd 2 in one together? I am having a hard time visualizing how that would work. BTW, no Husky dealers here, except TSC and maybe Lowe's. Not sure if they have one. They don't sell any pro-grade saws. But, to answer your question on how the Pferd system can still result in a curved cut, the answer is simple. I tend to do a better job of applying pressure on the right hand cutters than the left. That would be a problem with any hand filing system that does not have an adjustable file stop, such as the Granberg file-n-joint does. I used the Granberg before and it does a great job, but it took maybe 15-20 minutes to set it up and get the job done. Freehand filing was faster but I had to still file the rakers separately. That made it about a 10 minute job. I have it down to 5 or less with the Pferd system. But proper use of the Pferd system, just as any other hand filing method, requires some skill, and I am endeavoring to improve mine.
Yes, use them together, it just won't touch the rakers as doing them with the husky guide will take them down a touch lower. Now one caveat is that the husky raker guide doesn't work with all chains.
You could order one online, but you shouldn't pay more than like $12-15, I've seen places charging 30 or more.
The point about it cutting curved was that the reason it's cutting like that is not because the cutters are a different length, but rather because one side needs the rakers lower than the other because the cutters are shorter on that side. With the 2 in one you are removing a fixed/set amount off the raker, this not removing enough on the lower cutter to take a similar chip to the cutter that's taller. That's why when you send the chains out and the cutters come back an equal length they cut fine even when you use the 2-1 to sharpen them, at least until the cutters get filed different lengths.
 

chipper1

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What Bret is saying, is that you can file the left cutters down to nothing and leave the right cutters new and as long as each raker is set with a progressive guide, it will cut straight
Now you're putting words in my mouth :laugh: .
But yes, that's correct.
 

Hermio

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What Bret is saying, is that you can file the left cutters down to nothing and leave the right cutters new and as long as each raker is set with a progressive guide, it will cut straight
I don't see how that can be. I do not see how raker depth has anything to do with a tendency to cut a curve. It seems to me that if all the teeth on one side are wider than those on the other, the wider cutters will tend to push the saw towards the narrower cutters, resulting in a curved cut. And, in any case, I actually had the curve problem when I filed the rakers separately with a standard raker filing gauge. I admit, I have not used a progressive gauge. I also have not measured the height set by the Pferd tool, but I assume it is 0.025" as standard.
 

Hermio

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I would have 5-6 chains with different length cutters on one side.
None of them cut in a curve.
Do my depth gauges by hand.
I guess I am unable to visualize how slight differences in depth can cause a curve, or how a bias in sharpening on one side would not cause a curve. When I filed depth gauges by hand and used a guide (probably made by Oregon), I still slowly drifted into a tendency for the cut to curve.
 

huskihl

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I don't see how that can be. I do not see how raker depth has anything to do with a tendency to cut a curve. It seems to me that if all the teeth on one side are wider than those on the other, the wider cutters will tend to push the saw towards the narrower cutters, resulting in a curved cut. And, in any case, I actually had the curve problem when I filed the rakers separately with a standard raker filing gauge. I admit, I have not used a progressive gauge. I also have not measured the height set by the Pferd tool, but I assume it is 0.025" as standard.
I can’t help with what you can or can’t see. But it’s definitely one of only a few reasons that a chain cuts in an arc
 

chipper1

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I don't see how that can be. I do not see how raker depth has anything to do with a tendency to cut a curve. It seems to me that if all the teeth on one side are wider than those on the other, the wider cutters will tend to push the saw towards the narrower cutters, resulting in a curved cut. And, in any case, I actually had the curve problem when I filed the rakers separately with a standard raker filing gauge. I admit, I have not used a progressive gauge. I also have not measured the height set by the Pferd tool, but I assume it is 0.025" as standard.
As the cutter gets shorter there needs to be the same angle from the working corner to the raker, when you used a fixed gauge say .025, the angle will change. If you start needing the raker to be at .025 on a new chain, by the time you get to the end of the chain you will need 35 or more to keep the angle correct.
A cutter does not work as a planer does, a cutter rocks back when the working edge hits the wood and then the raker tips up into the wood, in order for the cutter work as it was intended the angle must be correct rather than the raker being at a fixed depth throughout it's lifetime.
Basically, it's not as simple as most think it is; but it's not as complex to accomplish what's needed to make a chain cut properly throughout its life either.
 

chipper1

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Running a different model every time. It’s all about the balance
I know how it goes, just as long as they don't have a front tensioner ;). I just bent the handle on my 462 last week, I'm cutting a bit crooked with it now lol.

@Hermio here's a video that explains it, this is one of our members here, who learned it from another member, as did I :reading:.
 

mncutter

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@Hermio

Skim through this guide, it will may help you understand the relationship between cutter length (and cutter height, since the cutter is not flat) and depth gauge/raker height.

The depth gauge to cutter relationship (angle of attack/size of bite is one way to think of it) regulates how much wood the cutter tries to remove. For a simple example if all the right facing cutters have low depth gauge heights and all the left facing cutters have high depth gauges, you’ll be cutting curves.
 

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Jay Hansen

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I still have a couple of Carlton File O Plates and I use them for my rakers. It fits in your wallet, it's a very respectable filing guage it's a progressive raker guage, and they used to cost a dollar. There was even a time that they gave one to you with a new chain.
 

chipper1

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@chipper1 I'm not 100% sure that "cutting circles" around another chain is the best wording you could use to describe your chain that will cut straight. Just sayin '. :hi: LOL
That's funny, you got me :laugh:.
Speaking of chains, did you cut all those shark fins off those chains yet.
Those are tri-link chains not archers BTW, remembered it after I sent that.
 

Xmaniac

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Proper chain sharpening is an art... not very many people get it. Everyone tends to have a dominant side where they take more material out and have different angles than the other side. Counting strokes and paying attention to angles,cutter length, depth is crucial. It kills me to see guy's sharpen with one hand!!!! You're just tickling the tooth and at all angles..... you have to dig in and grind that C, half moon on round chisel. Then dress it up with a few soft licks twisting the file upwards to eliminate burs and imperfections.... hardwood cutting needs more angle degree than softwood, and higher rakers, on softwood I can go with a flatter angle and more off the rakers. Ultimately, your looking for chain speed rpm, with precision sharpness...
 

Xmaniac

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Running full skip style chains seem to have less weight, less cutter's, giving you more chain speed however, less anti kickback features, but it takes less time to ReSharpen them...your saw should do the cutting for you without requiring excessive force if sharpened properly. You should see big chips flying out of the side plate not dust..
 

copen

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@Hermio

Skim through this guide, it will may help you understand the relationship between cutter length (and cutter height, since the cutter is not flat) and depth gauge/raker height.

The depth gauge to cutter relationship (angle of attack/size of bite is one way to think of it) regulates how much wood the cutter tries to remove. For a simple example if all the right facing cutters have low depth gauge heights and all the left facing cutters have high depth gauges, you’ll be cutting curves.
Excellent. Thanks for that. I need all the help I can get.
 

Hermio

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If the raker is adjusted to the corresponding cutter then the chain will run true, It's not just about making the chain cut faster, it will also be smoother. Maybe you should try it, rather than arguing about it when you have no experience on a topic. You actually sound like a smart individual, but sometimes that can be a downfall. I've been humbled many times trying something I didn't think was going to work that was told to me by someone with less experience than me on the topic, sometimes people with no/little experience are not caught up in the "how things are supposed to work or be" of it all. That being said, other times someone else has tried our way and knows what works best so they offer up a little tip and we have the opportunity to learn.
Let it be know, I think the perferd/stihl 2 in 1 is a great tool, but as you've said after a bit the chain still needs to be trued up. Why is that, if it's working so well? Rather than taking it in next time, spend your money on a progressive raker guide and give it a try. They are not too much at the dealer, that is if you're not afraid to walk into a husky dealer :p . Stihl has some too, but they are a bit different and are not available in our market(I had mine shipped from Europe), and they are quite a bit more aggressive even using the hardwood setting.
Here's the one I like for 3/8 chain. You get the same settings as the one on the roller guide, but since you have the 2-1 it will hold your file up on the cutter nicely and there is really no need for the roller guide in that case.



View attachment 959869
Last night I watched a few videos on how to use that guide, as well as the Husqvarna roller guide. I can see that filing each raker individually is a bit different from bridging two teeth, which sort of averages the height. But also came up with the following observations: 1) If all the cutting teeth are filed to the same height/length, methods which bridge two teeth will still produce the same raker height. Only with uneven tooth filing will the two methods make a difference. 2) The progressive guides will actually reduce the cutting angle as the cutting tooth wears down, resulting in a smaller bite. This is an inevitable result of maintaining the same fulcrum point. Simple geometry. But that should result in a slower cutting rate unless the chain speed picks up to compensate. Maybe it does. Forgive me for being a bit nerdy, but that is my nature, as I am an engineer by training.
 
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mncutter: Thanks for posting attachment.
I've never heard of progressive gages for sharpening. I have seen many of the issues addressed with my own chains over the years, like forty years now. Previously the rule of thumb was buy new and keep on cutting. A lazy, expensive, wasteful approach no doubt. Early on I paid for sharpening. That was frustrating on several levels. The next step was a Grandberg jig for a couple decades of firewood cutting. It wore out and in search of a replacement I've used the Stihl 2-1 with good results, and more attention to bar maintenance.
Buckin Billy Rae's "get the gullet" was a bump up for me too. He also talks about tooth length not having to be equal to cut well.
The attachment is a great overall view of all the issues I've experienced over the years, and poor assumptions I've made on quality of bars or chains I've purchased.
I now run one chain, sharping on the saw when it no longer self feeds. I do keep backups hanging on the wall of course. Still much room for improvement, and will seek out a progressive gage for improved chain cutting as the teeth become shorter.
Instead of sharpening being simply a necessity, I've come to enjoy it, and learning more about it.
And of course a sharp chain puts a smile on my face when cutting.

IMG_4661.jpg
Chipper 1: Thanks for video too. His hands were in the way so I couldn't visualize what he was talking about but it hooked me to keep reading.
 

chipper1

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Last night I watched a few videos on how to use that guide, as well as the Husqvarna roller guide.
A willingness to learn is a good thing :).
I can see that filing each raker individually is a bit different from bridging two teeth, which sort of averages the height.
While it may only be a "bit" different, that bit is what changes everything.
It doesn't sort of average it, it divides the difference in half, which is exactly the average when using the 2 in 1, think how far off that could make a raker using the type of guide that goes on the two cutters behind the raker(closer to the saw when filing) :oops:.
1) If all the cutting teeth are filed to the same height/length, methods which bridge two teeth will still produce the same raker height.
That's correct, and that's why your chain starts to curve, because your cutters length changes as you file.
That's what I've been trying to say to help you. Using the progressive style guide the raker will be adjusted to the proper height for the cutter it corresponds to.
Only with uneven tooth filing will the two methods make a difference.
Wrong.
2) The progressive guides will actually reduce the cutting angle as the cutting tooth wears down, resulting in a smaller bite.
Right, the angle is reduced.
Wrong, as the angle is reduced the "bite" is maintained. When the angle is reduced the depth gauge will now be lower that the average of the two cutters around it as with the 2 in 1, this is where the benefits of the progressive guide come into play.
This is an inevitable result of maintaining the same fulcrum point.
Wrong, the fulcrum point has moved both down and back.
But that should result in a slower cutting rate unless the chain speed picks up to compensate.
Wrong.
Forgive me for being a bit nerdy, but that is my nature, as I am an engineer by training.
Good to know you are trainable, but you still have not received your depth gauge certificate lol.
We're here for you though :).
 
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