A well sharpened chain?

[GeeVee]

On a scale of 1 to 10 what's the call on this. Guys charging $5 a chain.

Thats called. " Give me my chain back- you can keep the $5 dollar bill, you'lll never see another"

Actually the call is- That sucks.

And why would you pay someone to sharpen your Chain?

 

[Jay Hansen]

Last night I watched a few videos on how to use that guide, as well as the Husqvarna roller guide. I can see that filing each raker individually is a bit different from bridging two teeth, which sort of averages the height. But also came up with the following observations: 1) If all the cutting teeth are filed to the same height/length, methods which bridge two teeth will still produce the same raker height. Only with uneven tooth filing will the two methods make a difference. 2) The progressive guides will actually reduce the cutting angle as the cutting tooth wears down, resulting in a smaller bite. This is an inevitable result of maintaining the same fulcrum point. Simple geometry. But that should result in a slower cutting rate unless the chain speed picks up to compensate. Maybe it does. Forgive me for being a bit nerdy, but that is my nature, as I am an engineer by training.

Do your math again. You're not factoring in the increasing distance between the cutting edge of the tooth and the raker as the cutter is filed back.
Anyway, theory, math, and speculation aside---it just works! These guys have tried it all, and unless unless the cutters on one side take the same size chips as the cutters on the other side, your chain won't cut straight. A progressive raker gauge assures that every cutter takes the same size bite regardless of cutter length.

 

[Sandhill Crane]

I’d offer him some advice to improve what he offers and help him out.

First, the world could use more people with this attitude. You made me smile...

View attachment 959521

Interesting how little the hook is in this photo of a huge tooth.

 

[Sandhill Crane]

These guys have tried it all, and unless unless the cutters on one side take the same size chips as the cutters on the other side, your chain won't cut straight. A progressive raker gauge assures that every cutter takes the same size bite regardless of cutter length.

If the chain runs flat on the bar none of it makes sense.
However, post #71 Carton attachment indicated the tooth follows a wave action. In this case, each tooth is indexed by the preceding depth gage, independent of the others. At least that's what I'm getting from this.
Edit: This could also account for pulling right or left if one tooth is biting more than another.

 

[chipper1]

mncutter: Thanks for posting attachment.
I've never heard of progressive gages for sharpening. I have seen many of the issues addressed with my own chains over the years, like forty years now. Previously the rule of thumb was buy new and keep on cutting. A lazy, expensive, wasteful approach no doubt. Early on I paid for sharpening. That was frustrating on several levels. The next step was a Grandberg jig for a couple decades of firewood cutting. It wore out and in search of a replacement I've used the Stihl 2-1 with good results, and more attention to bar maintenance.
Buckin Billy Rae's "get the gullet" was a bump up for me too. He also talks about tooth length not having to be equal to cut well.
The attachment is a great overall view of all the issues I've experienced over the years, and poor assumptions I've made on quality of bars or chains I've purchased.
I now run one chain, sharping on the saw when it no longer self feeds. I do keep backups hanging on the wall of course. Still much room for improvement, and will seek out a progressive gage for improved chain cutting as the teeth become shorter.
Instead of sharpening being simply a necessity, I've come to enjoy it, and learning more about it.
And of course a sharp chain puts a smile on my face when cutting.

View attachment 960108

Yep, we all have room for improvement, many have no desire to improve/change their ways sadly. I understand that sometimes the effort does not produce enough of a change to be add value to what an individual does, but when that individual has a problem and you try to help and they don't/won't listen .
I really enjoy sharpening too, unfortunately my elbows don't, hauling drywall didn't do them any favors.
One yr I decided I was going to learn everything I could about chain sharpening by completely immersing myself in it, I was tired of having problems with chains not cutting as they should and paying to have them sharpened. I bought all sorts of files, guides, jigs, grinders, both round and square and lots of chain. Thousands of dollars later, I have a basic understanding, and I can tune a chain quite well with a couple files lol.
Yes, having a pile of chips at your feet or flying thru the air is a great felling.

Smooth well tuned chain.

 

[Sandhill Crane]

Nice video.
To add to my last post, this also accounts for why you can cut straight and, each tooth does not have to be the same length.

 

[Sandhill Crane]

Not letting me edit post.
Pushing on the saw would flatten chain to bar and impede cutting action of teeth. A sharp, self feeding saw will naturally pull itself without help, and lubricate better. Now I know why years ago I've had chains that wore bars down and mushroomed the contact point on the chains.
I'll be taking a good look at drive sprockets now too.

 

[Franny K]

I understand that sometimes the effort does not produce enough of a change to be add value to what an individual does,

unfortunately my elbows don't,

If one does not want to wear their joints out doing filing nothing wrong with sending out the chain to get all the cutters and depth gauges made the same. I see a sign $7 at the John Deere place, If they do get it all the same could be worth it. The chain is going to be worn out when the short side gets to the witness mark. There is some pretty inexpensive chain options, places with 100 foot rolls of Oregon for around $300 for 3/8 and a bit more for .325

Do the guys on here that go to these GTG have timed trials of out of the box or off the roll vs what can be improved. As far as I can tell new is best. Plunge cutting at least on some chain models seems to get worse as sharpened.

 

[chipper1]

Nice video.
To add to my last post, this also accounts for why you can cut straight and, each tooth does not have to be the same length.

Thanks, I should get that saw out and run it, it's been a while.

If the chain runs flat on the bar none of it makes sense.
However, post #71 Carton attachment indicated the tooth follows a wave action. In this case, each tooth is indexed by the preceding depth gage, independent of the others. At least that's what I'm getting from this.
Edit: This could also account for pulling right or left if one tooth is biting more than another.

Exactly. It doesn't run flat on the bar like a wood plane, the "porpoising" action is what determines the thickness of a chip and that is controlled by the raker, as well as some other factors, but our focus has been on cutting firewood.

Pushing on the saw would flatten chain to bar and impede cutting action of teeth.

Yes, somewhat, but the cutter will still do it's thing as the working corner/leading edge grabs.

 

[PV Hiker]

There are two reasons that you can cut in a arc that was not mentioned.

Your wrist control can change direction.

If you use a "RS" chisel chain and you bent the working point. That side of the chain can't sever the wood so one side cuts, so you follow a arc. You have to physically look at the chain for this and not just pass a file over it a few times saying it's sharp.

 

[chipper1]

If one does not want to wear their joints out doing filing nothing wrong with sending out the chain to get all the cutters and depth gauges made the same. I see a sign $7 at the John Deere place, If they do get it all the same could be worth it. The chain is going to be worn out when the short side gets to the witness mark. There is some pretty inexpensive chain options, places with 100 foot rolls of Oregon for around $300 for 3/8 and a bit more for .325

Do the guys on here that go to these GTG have timed trials of out of the box or off the roll vs what can be improved. As far as I can tell new is best. Plunge cutting at least on some chain models seems to get worse as sharpened.

Some guys do just that, a nice grinder with a hydraulic clamp or a foot pedal is what helps me, and the square grinder is up higher and it doesn't affect my elbows as much.
You can go past the witness marks, but the chrome at the witness mark has to be filed beyond or the cutter will not sharpen properly and you will start to experience binding as the kerf is to narrow depending on the bar.
Edit; and you will start chucking cutters lol.





GTG chains while still a chain, there's a lot more that goes into them. Yes, guys do test cuts with various stock chains(chains will be consistent) to figure out a baseline for a saw, then some guys have a specific saw(saw will be consistent) they use to test the chains they make so they know when they are getting improvement in the work they've done on a chain.
Here's some chips from one I did a few yrs ago.
Warning, to the person that would say those are noodles referring to cutting with the grain, your wrong.


New is best for all around, it has not been tuned to your saw, your wood species, or your cutting style.
Bore/plunge cutting can suffer because the chain is not tuned properly. Usually because the rakers are too low, which causes kickback(both when starting the bore and inside the bore), or because the rakers are too high which doesn't allow the cutters leading edge to grab acting similar to the bumpers on a safety chain.
Here's a lower powered saw with a safety chain that's had the safety bumpers removed and I tuned it for this specific saw, it cuts smooth and as fast as it's capable, while still being able to bore.

 

[alanbaker]

If the raker is adjusted to the corresponding cutter then the chain will run true, It's not just about making the chain cut faster, it will also be smoother. Maybe you should try it, rather than arguing about it when you have no experience on a topic. You actually sound like a smart individual, but sometimes that can be a downfall. I've been humbled many times trying something I didn't think was going to work that was told to me by someone with less experience than me on the topic, sometimes people with no/little experience are not caught up in the "how things are supposed to work or be" of it all. That being said, other times someone else has tried our way and knows what works best so they offer up a little tip and we have the opportunity to learn.
Let it be know, I think the perferd/stihl 2 in 1 is a great tool, but as you've said after a bit the chain still needs to be trued up. Why is that, if it's working so well? Rather than taking it in next time, spend your money on a progressive raker guide and give it a try. They are not too much at the dealer, that is if you're not afraid to walk into a husky dealer . Stihl has some too, but they are a bit different and are not available in our market(I had mine shipped from Europe), and they are quite a bit more aggressive even using the hardwood setting.
Here's the one I like for 3/8 chain. You get the same settings as the one on the roller guide, but since you have the 2-1 it will hold your file up on the cutter nicely and there is really no need for the roller guide in that case.

https://sherrilltree.com/husqvarna-depth-gauge-file-guide-3-8in/

View attachment 959869

Great must have tool, takes the guess work out of setting the depth gauges

 

[chipper1]

Great must have tool, takes the guess work out of setting the depth gauges

Yep, I like them for trueing them up after hitting them a couple times with no guide.
For the price and time its much better than sending them out, but you still need to know how to file the cutters.

 

[GrizG]

The attached document from Stihl may also help folks read their chains with an eye towards correcting problems. Short and sweet.

 

[Skeans]

A clapped out chain I’ll normally thicken the wheel out so I’m leaving almost no gullet at about a little over half way on the tooth, vs the new one that’s about factory size. As a depth gauges go a brand new chain needs the depth gauges dropped from day one to get a chain to actually cut.


This one they were a touch high and I nailed something well working on the far side of that tree.


About right they smooth out as they round over well cutting, since the is I’ve changed depth gauge grinders so they look like the first pictured ones.


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[copen]

A clapped out chain I’ll normally thicken the wheel out so I’m leaving almost no gullet at about a little over half way on the tooth, vs the new one that’s about factory size. As a depth gauges go a brand new chain needs the depth gauges dropped from day one to get a chain to actually cut.


This one they were a touch high and I nailed something well working on the far side of that tree.


About right they smooth out as they round over well cutting, since the is I’ve changed depth gauge grinders so they look like the first pictured ones.


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It'd wear my old a$$ out carrying all that equipment around.

 

[Skeans]

It'd wear my old a$$ out carrying all that equipment around.

That’s all the light stuff it’s not that bad to pack the stuff honestly.


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[HumBurner]

Where's the hook?

As a general rule, I agree, but hook isn't completely necessary.

This chain is nearing the end of its life. You can see I've filed well into the link ridge-top. Any perceived dramatic hook in the profile is mostly my unsteady hand/poor angling. There is minimal to no hook on the teeth, and the leading edge is basically even with the gullet.

This chain tears through
hardwood like a hot knife through butter. Very little dust.

30° semi chisel, 3/8 .050. Close but not even cutter lengths.

 

[Joel D'Angelo]

I've noticed that if I try to reshape a bad tooth by hand I end up undercutting it more often than not. Undercutting meaning The sharp edge is thin and weak. Is there something I am doing wrong? T

 

[HumBurner]

I'm not completely sure I understand.

Are you thinning the top plate or the width of the cutting edge, causing it to backslope?


And what type of cutter? Chisel, semi-, square?