Advice Appreciated re: EAB

[Hope]

Hi, my first post here. I have spent the last few weeks reading this arborist forum. For the education I thank you. But, despite the reading, I am at a crossroads and need some advice. The dreaded EAB isn't here yet, but it's getting close (15-20 miles away) so time is running out.

I have 40+ beautiful, healthy, large, mature ash trees. All are in prominent locations on the property, ie few are “in the woods” where they wouldn't be missed as much. Estimated cost to have a pro treat all trees with Tree-age injections is about $12-14k every 2 yrs (quotes of $17 per DBH). With kids in college and my nearing retirement, I can't afford that. My estimate to remove all ash trees? 100k+ while they are healthy, I can't afford that either. So what to do?

The only thing I can do, is try and treat them myself. I wouldn't dream of attempting this if I had an alternative, but I don't. So, I read everything I could on the art and science of tree injection and EAB pesticides, but I still need some help. Again, let me stress this, I am not suggesting that I can do the job as efficiently as a pro, I am just saying that I can't afford that and have no alternative.

My plan is to inject 40 trees every 2 years with 4% emamectin benzoate.
I need advice in choosing the right product and equipment.

I am aware of 4 products:
Tree-age is a RUP. (I can buy this if I get my applicator license, which I can get, but will take months.)
Tree-age G4 is a non RUP. Can I buy this?
Arbormectin (Rotam) is a non RUP. Can I buy this?
Boxer (Arborsystems' brand of emamectin benzoate) is a non RUP. Can I buy this?

What is the shelf life of these? If I have leftover, at $500/liter, I'd like to save it for the next application in 2 yrs.

Equipment:
Arborjet Quickjet - slow but cheap and simple. Needs plugs.
Arborjet Tree IV - faster than Quickjet if you leapfrog them, but I will only purchase 1 unit due to cost
Rainbow Q Gun - no plugs, so cheaper and faster than Quickjet to use, but do you lose product due to leakage?
Chemjet - cheapest of all, very simple, can let it sit and absorb at whatever rate tree wants

To a pro, speed is important...I get that, but my goal isn't speed. I am doing my 40 trees and then putting the equipment in storage for 2 years. I am willing to do 8 trees per 8 hr day if that's what it takes, but I do need it to be possible. ie I can't afford to buy a system that won't do the job at all (will be mostly 20 ml injections per plug), nor buy equipment that wastes/loses the expensive pesticide.

Simplicity, reliability (simple to repair as I will not own backups) and cost of equipment is most important to me, and speed least important...within reason. I can't do 1 tree a day for example.

Lastly. to anyone who has used the Arborjet Arborplugs. If I opt for the Tree IV system and do not buy the Quickjet, can a simple plastic syringe with a large bore needle be used with the Arborplug? Without having to set up, it might be quicker than a Tree IV on some of the smaller trees. I might buy some Arborplugs and try injecting with a simple disposable syringe before I buy a Quickjet, just to see how fast it might go before investing in a Quickjet. Yes, I know weather conditions, tree health, season, time of day, wet soil etc. all play a roll in uptake speed, but on an ideal day, I would like to see if a regular syringe on an Arborject plug would work. Or maybe someone has experience with the Q Gun - with no plugs at all it saves a step, but at the expense of lost product maybe?

It may be too late to even treat this year and I'm thinking of waiting until next spring as EAB hasn't been seen here yet. Any help appreciated. Again, I am just trying to save my own trees.

 

[ATH]

1) If it is known to be within 15 miles, it is there. Trust me. I have been through this conversation with people from all of the midwest who assure me it is not there...until they find it a month or two later....or once the trees start to come down 2 years later, they find callous tissue for the last 3 years.
2) Tree-AGE G4. I'm not even sure why they still make the original. (use 5ml per inch of dbh)
3) I have been happy with the Tree IV. The QuickJet is OK if the tree decides it wants to take the chemical in that day. It was worthless with the orifinal Tree-AGE, but usable with the G4. I demoed the Rainbow system. Didn't work any better. No plugs is nice, but they are not that big of a deal. I haven't used it, but I haven't seen or heard many good experiences with Arborsystem's Wedgle - several claims it pops the bark. Looks like you'd need to do a lot of holes to get enough product in with Chemjet. Not familiar with that.
4) I think it is crazy to treat that may trees on one property. Check per acre limits for the chemicals. $100K for the removals also sounds crazy unless they are all packed in between houses, sheds, power lines, and swimming pools.
5) I KNOW $17 per inch is insanely high price - especially for that many trees on one property. I charge $9.85 per inch and it is plenty profitable (For example, it was a long day and things moved really well, but I netted $3500 in one day doing that last year.) I'd discount it at least 10-15% for that many.
6) Having said all of that, consider treating with soil applied imidacloprid. I haven't lost any trees that have only imidacloprid IF treatment was started early. One that I can think of that isn't looking great that was started early.

 

[Jed1124]

Tree IV would be the way to go if you are doing injections. Stay away from the gun systems.
G4 is good but Arbormectin is better but you have to buy it by the case.
I wouldn't worry to much about shelf life if the product is in a climate controlled area.
Imidacloprid may work for you provided it isn't RUP in jersey. It is in CT.
$10 per inch of DBH is pretty common so whoever quoted you $17 per inch is crazy. You should be able to do a little better with the volume you have too.
Site One is closing out tree IV to make room for the new Arborjet system. The one by me is selling the tree IV at cost. Picked up a couple new today at $265 a piece, bottle, lines, and valves with needles.

 

[Hope]

1) If it is known to be within 15 miles, it is there. Trust me. I have been through this conversation with people from all of the midwest who assure me it is not there...until they find it a month or two later....or once the trees start to come down 2 years later, they find callous tissue for the last 3 years.
2) Tree-AGE G4. I'm not even sure why they still make the original. (use 5ml per inch of dbh)
3) I have been happy with the Tree IV. The QuickJet is OK if the tree decides it wants to take the chemical in that day. It was worthless with the orifinal Tree-AGE, but usable with the G4. I demoed the Rainbow system. Didn't work any better. No plugs is nice, but they are not that big of a deal. I haven't used it, but I haven't seen or heard many good experiences with Arborsystem's Wedgle - several claims it pops the bark. Looks like you'd need to do a lot of holes to get enough product in with Chemjet. Not familiar with that.
4) I think it is crazy to treat that may trees on one property. Check per acre limits for the chemicals. $100K for the removals also sounds crazy unless they are all packed in between houses, sheds, power lines, and swimming pools.
5) I KNOW $17 per inch is insanely high price - especially for that many trees on one property. I charge $9.85 per inch and it is plenty profitable (For example, it was a long day and things moved really well, but I netted $3500 in one day doing that last year.) I'd discount it at least 10-15% for that many.
6) Having said all of that, consider treating with soil applied imidacloprid. I haven't lost any trees that have only imidacloprid IF treatment was started early. One that I can think of that isn't looking great that was started early.

Thank you for the advice. There are known infestations about 40 miles away. There are 'rumors' of traps catching EAB within 15-20 miles. But it's 20 miles to each of 3 sides of me. It's closing in. I wanted to treat this year, but it took me a few weeks to learn all about it, how to treat etc. and the best time to treat has passed. I am now wondering if I should wait for early next spring just when the trees are leafing. Of the 40+ trees, a few I could probably treat with soil applied imidacloprid as you suggest, but my understanding is that it is really only effective on trees with DBH < 10-15 inches. I only have 3 trees that small, about a dozen 15-20" and 30 or so 23-28" DBH.

Regarding the price of the quotes: It's a 'high rent' neighborhood, so the quotes for everything from house painting to plumbing/electricians to snow plowing to tree work etc. are always outrageous. It's the accepted norm here that contractors often throw out large #'s to see what sticks, and if the homeowner won't pay it, there are plenty that can and will. I may try and get some more quotes to see if I can bring the cost down a bit given the volume I have and all. At $10 per DBH in., is that with 5ml or 10 ml treatment?

I will check per acre limit on the chemicals, but I thought that was more applicable to soil applications or sprays, not so much for injections. Why would there be a per acre limit on injected insecticides? The property is about 5 acres, 3+ acres of it is lawn and trees.

My neighbors aren't even talking about EAB yet, didn't even know what it was, despite it being in the local news etc. Do you think I am better off injecting this July through August or getting an early start next spring. Been very hot here lately (90's). Lastly, since it is 'probably' here, or if not, will be by next spring, would you recommend low, med or med high dosing on trees that are over 15 DBH and appear healthy. 5, 10 or 15 ml? 5 ml would be a godsend as it would save a ton of $, but given the labor involved I would want to err on the higher side if uncertain.

 

[Hope]

Tree IV would be the way to go if you are doing injections. Stay away from the gun systems.
G4 is good but Arbormectin is better but you have to buy it by the case.
I wouldn't worry to much about shelf life if the product is in a climate controlled area.
Imidacloprid may work for you provided it isn't RUP in jersey. It is in CT.
$10 per inch of DBH is pretty common so whoever quoted you $17 per inch is crazy. You should be able to do a little better with the volume you have too.
Site One is closing out tree IV to make room for the new Arborjet system. The one by me is selling the tree IV at cost. Picked up a couple new today at $265 a piece, bottle, lines, and valves with needles.

I think I will end up buying the Tree IV and the Rotam product by the case, and although I don't know what that costs yet, I would assume similar to G4. Yes, you have to buy it by the case, but I will need more than a case anyway, and if shelf life is >2 yrs, then the remainder will be saved.
I've only come across Tree IV and other Arborjet equipment at MSRP, so thanks for the heads up on Site One. There is one near me, I will give them a call on Monday.
Arbormection is non RUP correct?

 

[ATH]

I started out with 5ml per inch on trees under 15" and 10ml per inch over (the larger tree rate was $12.10 per inch). The ArborJet regional sales rep told me at a conference this past winter, to use 5ml per inch for everything. She must be confident in that as that means she is moving less product.

I have some pretty big trees that have been only imidacloprid that are in great shape. You may loose a few branches, and maybe even a couple of trees. No doubt Tree-Age is the better product, it just costs quite a bit more. I use the 2F formulation. .2 oz per inch under 15" and .4 oz per inch for the bigger trees in water.

I'd still treat this year if I were you. They are there, laying eggs now, eggs are hatching and starting to eat your tree.

I should mention Option #3: dinotefuran (Safari or Transtect). I used this instead of imidacloprid if the first call for treatment came in the summer when we were being hit hard. It moves into the tree much faster. It is also the easiest of any to apply. It is also the most expensive chemical.

You are correct, no per acre limits on trunk-injected Tree-Age... that was more about soil applied imidacloprid.

 

[ATH]

Arbormectin isn't that much less than Tree Age G4 and ArborJet has better support. Worth a couple of extra 4 to me.

 

[ATH]

.....
Regarding the price of the quotes: It's a 'high rent' neighborhood, so the quotes for everything from house painting to plumbing/electricians to snow plowing to tree work etc. are always outrageous. It's the accepted norm here that contractors often throw out large #'s to see what sticks, and if the homeowner won't pay it, there are plenty that can and will. I may try and get some more quotes to see if I can bring the cost down a bit given the volume I have and all. .....

That is jacked up. I can understand if they have to set up shop in high rent and pay more for everything themselves...but to charge more just because the homeowners have more. Nope...I tell people my price on the phone before I know their address. For smaller trees further away, there will be a travel fee. But, again, for that much work, I'd waive that.

 

[Hope]

Arbormectin isn't that much less than Tree Age G4 and ArborJet has better support. Worth a couple of extra 4 to me.

ATH,
Thanks for the advice, it is greatly appreciated. 5ml or 10ml, that is a big cost difference right there. Talking about 3.5 or 7 liters of product. I have a few technical questions maybe you can advise me on. I will have time to treat in about 2 weeks (my vacation time). Mid July isn't ideal, and I don't mind doing it then if the benefit of an early start is real, but if the uptake isn't great due to the heat and late application, does the Tree-age sit there in the xylem waiting to be transferred up the tree just more slowly? In other words, if I apply it mid July will I still get the 2 year treatment interval, or will I have to reapply in the spring anyway because transpiration wasn't optimal? I just don't want to put in the labor and $3500 worth of Tree-age only to find that because of the application time I have to reapply sooner than anticipated.

Additionally:
I have read that for Quickjet injections, the number of injection sites is DBH/2. Whereas for the Tree IV it can be DBH/3 or 4, so fewer injection ports. What is your technique?
Do you recommend diluting the Tree-age with water for Tree IV application technique?
I have read that you should inject into the root flare but also read that 12” above ground level is best. Which is the preferred technique?
Lastly, how many trees could I expect to treat in one day with a single 8 needle Tree IV? I know that depends upon a whole host of climate conditions, but are we talking 2 or 10? The trees are mostly 20-28” DBH and healthy.

Again, thank you so much for the advice. I am feeling a little more confident about the chances of saving my trees.

 

[Hope]

That is jacked up. I can understand if they have to set up shop in high rent and pay more for everything themselves...but to charge more just because the homeowners have more. Nope...I tell people my price on the phone before I know their address. For smaller trees further away, there will be a travel fee. But, again, for that much work, I'd waive that.

Unfortunately that is the way it is here. Newer homeowners get stuck because they don't know any better. I know I did the first few times; then I got smart. I learned to do what many old-timers here do. They get pros from further away to come in for quotes for any large project. Those quotes are always much, much lower. I had my home painted at 1/4 the cost of the local quote, simply because someone was willing to drive 40 miles for the job. I am sure he charged me more due to the travel, but I was okay with that, and they in return, got more for my job than they would have gotten in their locale, win-win. If I can't handle the job, that is exactly what I will do again. I like to support the local guys, I am a big proponent of supporting my local hardware store, small grocer, plumbing supply etc over the big box stores because I know the little guys are there when you need them most. But on a big job like this, I just hate it when people try and take advantage, and it's commonplace.

 

[Jason Douglas]

Hope, congrats on your research on the subject, that's far more work than most homeowners are willing to do.

July and August injections can be maddeningly slow due to poor transpiration conditions so get up early and start injecting in the am. If it's getting hot later in the day and uptake gets lousy, don't drill and plug more trees for later injection, there's always tomorrow.

Take advantage of days with cooler temps and good soil moisture after a good rain. 5ml per inch will work great for you as you are being proactive.

 

[Jason Douglas]

Also, I've moved to using 10ml per inch for folks whom I've convinced to go with a 3 year injection cycle.

EAB has been here for some time now and I absolutely hate drilling into trees so I've starting using the smaller #3 plugs that create a smaller wound and the added year between injections gives the tree more time to compartmentalize.

 

[ATH]

You don't need to thin G4. I never did thin the original. Decision to inject smaller volume but it goes in slower.

Like Jason said the problem with summer is how slow they can go. Product is still in fhe tree and you can inject 2019 as soon as the trees have full leaves.

Don't plan to start anything after noon this late in the year unless the morning trees went really well. Then you have tree to tree variation. One goes in as quick as can be while the next takes forever. The sun peaking out from the clouds or a gentle breeze will speed tbings up (increases transpiration). Plan on averaging about an hour per tree for set up, injection, etc... if it is taking longer than that bail out and come back another day. If it is going significantly more quickly, keep plugging away because it might not be so tomorrow.

I inject at root flare because that is where the research and manufacturer say to. I think the people injecting higher are being lazy. Maybe not at 6-12". But I there were some down the street from me that I never did see who was doing at 2-3' up. Use as few plugs as possible. Fewer holes in the tree. So dbh/4. On a 20" tree I'd use 4 as that is one set. On 22 I go up to 6 (expansion not with 2 valves turned off). If the tree is taking it in really slow I might add 2 holes and move 2 needles to those. After a few minutes move 2 other needles to the holes I moved out of (they will take in more after that time has passed).

The think we haven't touched on is making sure the plugs are set right. Below the bark (if too shallow, you can blow bark off), but not too deep or you'll slow the uptake.

 

[ArtB]

Thanks all for the education, no ash trees out here, so did not even know the EAB problem was so extensive.
This thread is one of the type that is an answer to a disparaging post in another section about 'newbie corruption' - no such thing, just adding to the knowledge base of us conifer addicted PNW folks

Parents in IL lost 2 40" DBH ash in the back yard a few years back, pop partially blamed it on us kids for throwing knives into the trees over the years.

 

[Jason Douglas]

And perhaps paying an arborist for an hour or so tutorial would be a great idea.

I have a chart from Arborjet showing how many injection points to have when using the Tree IV. Goes something like:
4-14" is 4 plugs
15-25" is 8 plugs
26-35" is 12 plugs
So on ans so forth.
Chart is a little different for using the Quick Jet which I threw into a meadow once in disgust...not a great tool for slow uptake days.

It is claimed that the more plugs used and the more the product is diluted, the better the distribution into all parts of the canopy. The major downside to this of course is increased wounding and time of application which is already slow on some days or some particular trees.

 

[JeffGu]

Really great helper thread. I might have to stop spreading horrible rumors about you two.

 

[Jason Douglas]

Oh Jeff, I could never quit you.

 

[STLARBORIST]

Thank you for the advice. There are known infestations about 40 miles away. There are 'rumors' of traps catching EAB within 15-20 miles. But it's 20 miles to each of 3 sides of me. It's closing in. I wanted to treat this year, but it took me a few weeks to learn all about it, how to treat etc. and the best time to treat has passed. I am now wondering if I should wait for early next spring just when the trees are leafing. Of the 40+ trees, a few I could probably treat with soil applied imidacloprid as you suggest, but my understanding is that it is really only effective on trees with DBH < 10-15 inches. I only have 3 trees that small, about a dozen 15-20" and 30 or so 23-28" DBH.

Regarding the price of the quotes: It's a 'high rent' neighborhood, so the quotes for everything from house painting to plumbing/electricians to snow plowing to tree work etc. are always outrageous. It's the accepted norm here that contractors often throw out large #'s to see what sticks, and if the homeowner won't pay it, there are plenty that can and will. I may try and get some more quotes to see if I can bring the cost down a bit given the volume I have and all. At $10 per DBH in., is that with 5ml or 10 ml treatment?

I will check per acre limit on the chemicals, but I thought that was more applicable to soil applications or sprays, not so much for injections. Why would there be a per acre limit on injected insecticides? The property is about 5 acres, 3+ acres of it is lawn and trees.

My neighbors aren't even talking about EAB yet, didn't even know what it was, despite it being in the local news etc. Do you think I am better off injecting this July through August or getting an early start next spring. Been very hot here lately (90's). Lastly, since it is 'probably' here, or if not, will be by next spring, would you recommend low, med or med high dosing on trees that are over 15 DBH and appear healthy. 5, 10 or 15 ml? 5 ml would be a godsend as it would save a ton of $, but given the labor involved I would want to err on the higher side if uncertain.

 

[STLARBORIST]

In the St.louis area I run $14 dbh to TreeageG4 , Seems reasonable with it being a 2 yr product and guys in my area quoting $17 dbh and running absolute low label.