Advice on falling dead Pine

[crammit442]

I need some advice from experienced fallers on dropping a dead pine here in Alabama. It needs to be done fairly soon, but isn't a crisis. I don't have pics right now, but can put some up tomorrow. It's probably 18-20" dbh and 55-60 ft tall. It's dead enough to have lost most of it's bark and limbs. It isn't leaning heavily and there's a pretty wide safe falling zone. As long as it goes where I need it for 15 or 20 degrees it'll be contained by healthy mature trees. If it were to sit back it could possibly get a powerline. There aren't enough limbs to catch a line very high to possibly help steer it. I can get a line 30ish ft up with a ladder. I'm guessing there isn't much quality holding wood left. I'm concerned that anything more than bit of line tension on it could cause it to snap off early. If I cut it I'll be using an MS-261. I just don't want to do anything that might cause it to do something exciting or anything else that I should particularly watch out for? I do more bucking downed trees than falling and just want to make sure I don't miss something that should probably be obvious. If it wasn't so completely dead I'd be more comfortable with it. I'm definitely willing to decide to punt if I get there and get bad vibes. Thanks in advance!

 

[jefflovstrom]

Hi, without pics and using your description, have you thought about putting that line where you said and then take just a little tension, then, make a small back cut enough to pull it over without it breaking up top?
Jeff

 

[old CB]

Pics will help.

You said the tree "isn't leaning heavily." Does it have lean at all? In the direction you intend to drop it? If it is leaning that way, you should not fear it sitting back on you. However, don't count on lean unless it's there. Get a plumb-line and sight from one side to determine whether it has lean. Actually, a spar--which is kind of what you've described, mostly trunk with limbs gone--a spar can be surprisingly resistant to falling.

If you can get a line 30' up, that will probably be sufficient to pull with. And if it snaps off prematurely in the direction you're pulling and want it to go . . . what's wrong with that?

However, without seeing what you describe any advice from myself or others could be offset by issues we're not aware of. Get pics.

 

[lone wolf]

I would not want to be standing under a rotten Pine tree with a helper of unknown skill is pulling it. Just put a rope on it high up with a throw line then snap the tree by pulling from a safe distance if it is that rotten,dont even cut it and it will still break.
If you think it will hit a powerline dont do it at all.

 

[crammit442]

I'll try to add a few more pics that better show the landing zone, but my Dad took these at the lake today. I'm not sure how to fix it, but if you can rotate the pics 90° they show things in better perspective The arrows are the rough falling direction. The power lines in the foreground are NOT a problem. The ones highlighted in the background are the ones I mentioned could be hit if the tree were to sit back and go completely backwards. It's also probably actually 75-80 ft tall. I haven't plumbed it, but the pics look appear to show a slight lean in the desired direction. It doesn't show well, but the zone is actually quite clear. There are also more places to snag a throw line further up than I thought so I should be able to get one in it. I feel a good bit better about it looking at the pics. My real hesitation is that it's dead. I'll try to get a couple more pics tomorrow. Thanks again.

P

 

[Mad Professor]

Looks too have some sort of vines growing near the top. If they are thick enough and holding to other trees it could get ugly with the top snapping off

 

[crammit442]

Looks too have some sort of vines growing near the top. If they are thick enough and holding to other trees it could get ugly with the top snapping off

It has vines in the top, but they're not entangled with any other trees. I'll definitely double check though. Thanks

 

[Cobus]

Don’t make a very deep face cut. Start your back cut slip a wedge or 2 in just barely holding until you get further into the tree. Still leave hang wood in the more desired direction to help pull it more away from the power line zone. Get your plum find your escape and use your wedges. Dead trees don’t have tons of pull with hang wood as live but they do have some. Just take your time and always watch the tree if you see your wedge fall off, your tree is tipping in the direction you want.

 

[old CB]

For a skilled feller, wedges would probably be sufficient. But a pull rope properly set and tensioned is called for here.

To the OP: set your rope about 2/3 the height of the tree, tension it with a come-along to an anchor tree roughly in the direction of fall, and be very careful to prepare a good hinge (holding wood). Your rope must be sufficiently strong for the task. Unless you feel confident that you can do all this and do it right, leave the job to someone who can.

It looks to me like part of the challenge is getting a throwline high enough to reach a limb or stub.

 

[The Lorax]

IF I had to do this I'd be inclined to make a small humboldt with a snipe to let it frop to the ground and bore cut leaving plenty of hinge wood if it is able to hinge in that state.
Start applying a pressure and just trip the back cut and run away.
My primary concern is that the tree is tall and there are lots of places for it to get snagged and hung up in, its not an easy drop when you combine the state of the tree and proximity to lines and houses.
Is there some cable or rope already in that tree? It looks like there is something hanging out of it.

 

[crammit442]

For a skilled feller, wedges would probably be sufficient. But a pull rope properly set and tensioned is called for here.

To the OP: set your rope about 2/3 the height of the tree, tension it with a come-along to an anchor tree roughly in the direction of fall, and be very careful to prepare a good hinge (holding wood). Your rope must be sufficiently strong for the task. Unless you feel confident that you can do all this and do it right, leave the job to someone who can.

It looks to me like part of the challenge is getting a throwline high enough to reach a limb or stub.

I agree that for safety, a line needs to be in the tree. I feel a little better about being able to get a throw line around a stub higher up after seeing the pictures. I'm also completely willing with walking away from it if I don't feel confident that I can do it safely. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[crammit442]

IF I had to do this I'd be inclined to make a small humboldt with a snipe to let it frop to the ground and bore cut leaving plenty of hinge wood if it is able to hinge in that state.
Start applying a pressure and just trip the back cut and run away.
My primary concern is that the tree is tall and there are lots of places for it to get snagged and hung up in, its not an easy drop when you combine the state of the tree and proximity to lines and houses.
Is there some cable or rope already in that tree? It looks like there is something hanging out of it.

I also thought that a Humboldt might be the desired face cut, thinking it would encourage the tree to drop down and forward as it comes off the stump. If I used a standard face cut it would be because I can better see and more accurately place the angled cut mostly because the tree is small enough that I need to get it right the first time so I don't cut it too deep. The first time I saw a picture of the tree I also thought there was already a line in it too, but it's just a long leg of the vine in the top of the tree. The possible snags look worse than they are. I would have done this a few months ago before the trees greened up, but there was a pontoon boat on blocks for the winter right in the landing zone. Hopefully I can get some pictures that better show the corridor where it needs to fall. I've read about and watched lots of more advanced face cuts, but I'm not comfortable practicing on this particular tree. I've cut mostly downed/storm damage trees and have become pretty good at reading tension and compression loads. While that's plenty hazardous, it's rarely a danger to nearby structures. I really appreciate all the input so far. I'll try to get a couple more pictures up later today.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Can you climb a nearby tree high enough?
Jeff

 

[crammit442]

Can you climb a nearby tree high enough?
Jeff

That's definitely a possibility. I just talked to my brother who's up there now and he feels confident that there are enough limbs stubs to catch a throw line. The pics are a little deceptive in that the nearby trees aren't actually that close. I should have a couple more pics shortly. Thanks!

 

[crammit442]

Here are a few more pictures that hopefully better show the lane I have for dropping the tree. The power lines in the foreground are not the ones I'm concerned about, although they will be de energized while I'm working. I'm not going to do anything today because it's blowing pretty good up there.

 

[The Lorax]

It looks a little better from that angle, If you leave a reasonably high stump say 3ft or so, put in your Humboldt and then cut another steeper angle from the outer 1/3 of the face cut downwards it will encourage the tree to drop off the stump once the face closes.
I would think that jarring movement would also help the tree break up and reduce the risk of the branches hanging up.
Its hard to judge just how sound or unsound the wood is from a screen.

 

[crammit442]

It looks a little better from that angle, If you leave a reasonably high stump say 3ft or so, put in your Humboldt and then cut another steeper angle from the outer 1/3 of the face cut downwards it will encourage the tree to drop off the stump once the face closes.
I would think that jarring movement would also help the tree break up and reduce the risk of the branches hanging up.
Its hard to judge just how sound or unsound the wood is from a screen.

Thanks again for all the input. Are there any hazards associated with cutting at 3 ft or so? It's been wet and windy for several days and is supposed to be through Wednesday. Depending on the weather, I may try to cut it Thursday or Friday. When I do go, I'm going with every intention of cutting the tree. That said, unless I feel good about it once I'm on site, I'll walk away with no shame at all. I don't think this tree is likely to chair, but should I put a few ratchets for the first ten or twelve feet up the tree to help keep it together until it falls? At the risk of jinxing myself, I probably will get video or at least pics of the process to show here when I finish. Thanks again!

 

[The Lorax]

Thanks again for all the input. Are there any hazards associated with cutting at 3 ft or so? It's been wet and windy for several days and is supposed to be through Wednesday. Depending on the weather, I may try to cut it Thursday or Friday. When I do go, I'm going with every intention of cutting the tree. That said, unless I feel good about it once I'm on site, I'll walk away with no shame at all. I don't think this tree is likely to chair, but should I put a few ratchets for the first ten or twelve feet up the tree to help keep it together until it falls? At the risk of jinxing myself, I probably will get video or at least pics of the process to show here when I finish. Thanks again!

If putting a few ratchets around the tree makes you feel better then I would.
High stumping it is no different to regular but the length of fall is reduced by the length of the higher stump.
Only difference is that if the butt end hits the ground hard it may break the top of the tree off and the tree might shatter if its really bad.
I wouldn't go near a snag like that if there is any wind, its not worth it.
Bring an axe and bang the trunk to check for soundness before making any cuts.
Good luck.

 

[arathol]

Thanks again for all the input. Are there any hazards associated with cutting at 3 ft or so? It's been wet and windy for several days and is supposed to be through Wednesday. Depending on the weather, I may try to cut it Thursday or Friday. When I do go, I'm going with every intention of cutting the tree. That said, unless I feel good about it once I'm on site, I'll walk away with no shame at all. I don't think this tree is likely to chair, but should I put a few ratchets for the first ten or twelve feet up the tree to help keep it together until it falls? At the risk of jinxing myself, I probably will get video or at least pics of the process to show here when I finish. Thanks again!

The problem isn't likely to be a barber chair. If its stone dead and dried out, it may not fall as you would expect when doing any sort of normal felling cut. In fact, it may not fall over at all if the wood in the hinge is dry and brittle. Wood in a long dead pine tree doesn't bend much at all, it just snaps like a match stick. Don't be tempted to keep cutting the hinge smaller to get it to go, that may be a recipe for failure. If you have a rope on the tree, when you try to pull it over it could very easily just snap off at the hinge and fall in any direction. Or, it may snap off anywhere between the roots and where the rope is tied once pressure is applied. If that happens, the top could come down in pieces, raining wood all over the place....not good. Or, it may just fall exactly where you want it to. Dead trees like this can be very unpredictable. You need to be very careful with something like this....
One other thing to note- that tree might be full of borers and other insects, making it even more unstable. All that bark laying in piles looks like the work of pileated wood peckers. They strip off large pieces like that to expose the bugs under it.

 

[crammit442]

The problem isn't likely to be a barber chair. If its stone dead and dried out, it may not fall as you would expect when doing any sort of normal felling cut. In fact, it may not fall over at all if the wood in the hinge is dry and brittle. Wood in a long dead pine tree doesn't bend much at all, it just snaps like a match stick. Don't be tempted to keep cutting the hinge smaller to get it to go, that may be a recipe for failure. If you have a rope on the tree, when you try to pull it over it could very easily just snap off at the hinge and fall in any direction. Or, it may snap off anywhere between the roots and where the rope is tied once pressure is applied. If that happens, the top could come down in pieces, raining wood all over the place....not good. Or, it may just fall exactly where you want it to. Dead trees like this can be very unpredictable. You need to be very careful with something like this....
One other thing to note- that tree might be full of borers and other insects, making it even more unstable. All that bark laying in piles looks like the work of pileated wood peckers. They strip off large pieces like that to expose the bugs under it.

I really appreciate all the advice I've gotten. It's interesting that you mention wood peckers. There are actually a lot of them up there. I normally see some really small ones, but there are also some that are are probably 2/3 the size of a crow. It's pretty quiet there during the week and I always hear/see them. I guess I'm going to go up and knock the bark off at the cutting area and sound the tree with my axe before going any further. It needs to come down sooner than later, but I'm not committing to cutting it until I decide whether I can do it safely. If I don't feel comfortable I'm going to go ahead and tell the family to call the man.