Alpine Butterfly let me down- Twice

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preventec47

ArboristSite Operative
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Location
Atlanta, GA
I have been ramping up for a project to pull down 15 or 18 trees from 10 to 18 inchs in diameter. I need to redirect some leaning trees and bought a Wythe 3 ton "more power puller" and while waiting on my 300ft TENEX TEC 1/2" rope, I have been using 120 ft of 5/8"
all nylon braided rope on some smaller trees. On my first two trees I tied my pull rope up into the tree and after anchoring my
Wythe "more power puller" I had to tie an alpine butterfly loop into my pull line to hook up to my 35 ft of amsteel blue rope with a steel
hook coming out of my rope puller. The first tree I pulled down resulted in the alpine loop being jammed hard and I could not untie
with two channel lock pliers. So I had to leave the loop in the rope and I figured I probably tied the knot wrong so for the next knot
I used another method and double checked with rope knot book and once again at around 2500 pounds pull the alpine loop jammed hard . I paid too much money for my new rope to keep putting a bunch of loops into it so I figure I need to
use sticks like for instance golf tees or 20 penney nails into the loop knot as I tie them to assure that I would be able to untie the knots later. I think part of the problem is that the extra elasticity of the nylon rope might be causing the knots to jam and my new
Tennex Tex rope has a medium elasticity and I dont want to take a chance of having knots jam in the rope permanently.
The jammed knots dont much resemble the fresh tied knot and I am unsure where I should place the 20D nails or whatever else
I can find that I will be able to remove from the knot easily. I sure would like some suggestions. Thanks from Atlanta, GA
 
Bowline on a bight is what I use now after having the same problem with alpine butterfly. The alpine will jam in tenex too made the mistake with a winch line. Bowline on a bight is always easy to untie and with the two loops it forms can help add pulleys for more mechanical advantage.
 
I have never had problems like you describe on small trees. How high are you putting your tag lines. Using a different knot might be the best solution. Many times I will use just a wrap which seems to work well and is super easy to unravel. Many times I will use two lines to direct tree specifically to where they need to be which allows haft of the tension needed to get the job done. Thanks
 
Second the suggestion of using a bowline, bowline on a bite, circus bowline or whatever variation of the bowline anytime you’re pulling with mechanical advantage, trucks, winches or anything that’ll pull much harder than a person.

Another thing I’ll often do is a mid-line clove hitch and clip a steel carabiner in the loops. Clip your come along hook to the biner. It does cinch up pretty hard, but once you remove the carabiner it falls apart easily. Super fast and easy to tie too, and a very handy knot/ hitch to know.
 
I almost exclusively use friction hitches to attach winches or block & tackle to a mainline. In some situations I might back up the friction hitch with a midline knot that will only go under tension if the friction hitch slips or fails but that is the exception for me rather than the norm.
 
I have never had problems like you describe on small trees. How high are you putting your tag lines. Using a different knot might be the best solution. Many times I will use just a wrap which seems to work well and is super easy to unravel. Many times I will use two lines to direct tree specifically to where they need to be which allows haft of the tension needed to get the job done. Thanks
What kind of different knot would you suggest ? What exactly do you mean by "wrap" that is easy to unravel ?
Second the suggestion of using a bowline, bowline on a bite, circus bowline or whatever variation of the bowline anytime you’re pulling with mechanical advantage, trucks, winches or anything that’ll pull much harder than a person.

Another thing I’ll often do is a mid-line clove hitch and clip a steel carabiner in the loops. Clip your come along hook to the biner. It does cinch up pretty hard, but once you remove the carabiner it falls apart easily. Super fast and easy to tie too, and a very handy knot/ hitch to know.
I have considered caribiners but concluded that caribiners were designed for body weight loads and not winching loads. I then looked as shackles and quick links
which are easily strong enough but would be too difficult to extricate from a knot.
I am surprised you are able to remove a caribiner from a hard jammed knot.
We need something like a slightly larger golf tee made from the stuff the wedges
are made of.
 
What kind of different knot would you suggest ? What exactly do you mean by "wrap" that is easy to unravel ?

I have considered caribiners but concluded that caribiners were designed for body weight loads and not winching loads. I then looked as shackles and quick links
which are easily strong enough but would be too difficult to extricate from a knot.
I am surprised you are able to remove a caribiner from a hard jammed knot.
We need something like a slightly larger golf tee made from the stuff the wedges
are made of.

I often use quicklinks or shackles though I have plenty of rated carbiners. I just prefer steel when weight is not an issue and I'm not using it for a live load. Though hardware store snap links need not apply. Here was a little experiment I ran on just a stump with a cheap but fairly stout looking hardware store snap link. It opened like it was made of cheese under load.
snap.jpg

Here's a shot of a mainline I rigged into a red oak with a 20" base that was leaning towards the home. Pulled it right over against the lean no sweat. I've used similar but doubled set ups with two main lines for bigger trees. The far side of the block & tackle was attached to the mainline with a 10mm prusik cord using a 7 wrap Autoblock (French Prusik) hitch. The thing I like about friction hitches is they will (should) slip before you reach breaking strength of any other component in the system but properly set up that point is still way over the safe working strength of the ropes involved so it serves as the "weak link" to let you know you are seriously overloading the system before you reach the breaking point any point of the system.
rigged.jpg

Can't see the detail on the far end in the photo above but here is a shot of the prusik that attached the B&T to the mainline. Tough little jokers when you buy good ones, this one has a 5400lb break strength rating.
pruisk.jpg
 
What kind of different knot would you suggest ? What exactly do you mean by "wrap" that is easy to unravel ?

I have considered caribiners but concluded that caribiners were designed for body weight loads and not winching loads. I then looked as shackles and quick links
which are easily strong enough but would be too difficult to extricate from a knot.
I am surprised you are able to remove a caribiner from a hard jammed knot.
We need something like a slightly larger golf tee made from the stuff the wedges
are made of.
There are a few ways to make a wrap that I am aware of. The basic concept is to wrap the line around the tree then tuck one end under the wrap. As the line pulls tight the wrap tightens around the loose end. Until you try it it will mean nothing. I have yet to see one loosen a little. I pull much larger trees out of hung up trees with just one come a long. I often use a 6,000 lb hydraulic jack for extra support. When a tree is hung up I will jack up the base to move where it needs to be. Three of four wraps with a rope even if it is poor will make a tree very sturdy. Angle jack to the direction you need the tree to go. I also have several larger jacks for the more stubborn trees. Thanks
 

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Tenex does not make a good bullrope... poor abrasion resistance and very easy to jam knots up.
Well live and learn. I shopped all over for a week and found 300 ft Tenex Tec for $.72 a foot with free ship and looking at the strength and slightly lower elasticity than the other cheap ropes is why I picked it. There seems to be a big jump from dynamic stretchy ropes from about 1 dollar a foot to the static non stretchy ropes at $5 a foot and more. No in between that I could find. This is for a 15 or 20 tree project so I will attempt to baby the rope regarding abrasion and I will use large plastic ground spikes in the knots to hopefully prevent hard jamming in the mid line loops or any other knots.
 
Well live and learn. I shopped all over for a week and found 300 ft Tenex Tec for $.72 a foot with free ship and looking at the strength and slightly lower elasticity than the other cheap ropes is why I picked it. There seems to be a big jump from dynamic stretchy ropes from about 1 dollar a foot to the static non stretchy ropes at $5 a foot and more. No in between that I could find. This is for a 15 or 20 tree project so I will attempt to baby the rope regarding abrasion and I will use large plastic ground spikes in the knots to hopefully prevent hard jamming in the mid line loops or any other knots.
I still don't understand why you are so against dynamic ropes... It's stored energy.
 
Tenex will jam up pretty bad under a load. An Alpine Butterfly will jam up under a decent load on about any rope though. Tenex Tec is hollow so there's nothing ro keep it from tangling up on itself. I would recommend any other rigging rope over Tenex for this application. I love Tenex and splice a lot of it for slings. It doesn't like knots or dynamic loading though.
 
Doesn't have to be the middle. I use it for a base tie for my climb line. A also use it for a top tie if I'm going to climb Srt then swap to Ddrt to work the tree. I don't do that often but it's good to know.

I also use an AP if I'm setting up a 3 to 1 to pull over a spar or tree. Its a good midline knot for setting the pulley for the 3 to 1 or even just using a truckers hitch.
 
Sure though I had the understanding the advantage of the Alpine Putterfly is it can be tied midline and can be untied after being loaded with say, a climber taking a fall or a long haul of gear up a face. of course very few climbers use hollow core rope like the tenex, right, its for slings. Out of curiosity why would a guy use it in a terminal application and what is "base tie for my climb line" ?

I think the obvious for the OP is once you tie knots and get a come along involved, all bets are off!
 
Yeah. It will untie pretty easy with the climbers weight and a little extra. If you start pulling on an AP with a truck or winch, it's going to bind up on about any type of rope.

A base tie. In Srt (stationary rope technique) you can have either a top tie or a base tie. A top tie, you pull your rope up and over a limb and tie a running bowline and pull it up. Then climb the rope. A base tie, you throw your rope over a suitable limb, back to the ground then tie it at the base of the tree, then climb the rope. I use it a lot when pulling trees over. A lot of times I don't isolate the perfect limb on the first throw but if the limb is strong enough, I'll let the throw bag drop down the backside of the tree then pull the rope back up and over the limb and use a base tie on the back side of the tree. Pull the tree over, untie the base tie and pull the rope out. It takes a longer rope. Usually a 200 ft is more than enough im my area.
 
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