Alpine Butterfly let me down- Twice

[benjo75]

Back to the original post. This is one of Patrick's vids. It might help in your situation.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

Sure though I had the understanding the advantage of the Alpine Putterfly is it can be tied midline and can be untied after being loaded with say, a climber taking a fall or a long haul of gear up a face. of course very few climbers use hollow core rope like the tenex, right, its for slings. Out of curiosity why would a guy use it in a terminal application and what is "base tie for my climb line" ?

I think the obvious for the OP is once you tie knots and get a come along involved, all bets are off!

He's been reinventing the wheel this whole project.

 

[preventec47]

I still don't understand why you are so against dynamic ropes... It's stored energy.

yes absolutely, Stored energy like GUNPOWDER. an embarrassing story.....
several years ago my mom wanted me to dig up a bush in front of her house
and I had stumbled across a section of big rope at a garage sale approx 1.25 inch
dia that was synthetic and had a core and cover. I had used it several times for
towing stuck vehicles out of ditch etc. So I tied it around the bush and the trailer hitch on my Dodge Ram 1500. I tried to gently pull the bush after digging around the
roots etc but it would not budge so I started getting little running starts with about 50 feet between the bush and the truck.. Finally at about ten mph the jerk worked.
There was a gradual slowing down as the rope stretched like a rubber band and
At exactly the same time as the bush was yanked out, the rope broke at the knot
on my trailer ball. There was a sound of an explosion like a gun shot and then
crashing glass. The fifty feet of rope had shot over the bush and through
all three front facing windows of my moms living room taking out the window
framing as well. THIS is why I am against dynamic rope.

 

[preventec47]

He's been reinventing the wheel this whole project.

Tenex will jam up pretty bad under a load. An Alpine Butterfly will jam up under a decent load on about any rope though. Tenex Tec is hollow so there's nothing ro keep it from tangling up on itself. I would recommend any other rigging rope over Tenex for this application. I love Tenex and splice a lot of it for slings. It doesn't like knots or dynamic loading though.

OF all the cheap ropes available, this chart is the reason why I picked the Tennex TEC
https://www.samsonrope.com/resources/arborist/rigging-line-comparison
Tennex TEC was simply the strongest rope in the chart and if I remember the conversion with the factory rep it had lower elasticity than of any of the ropes shown.

Apparently due to the other factors mentioned it appears that others consider it a bad choice. I still dont know what a better choice would have been with my budget.

 

[preventec47]

And an alpine butterfly is for climbing and mountaineering. Why are we tying knots in the middle of ropes again? did I miss something?

I have a rope puller and I am pulling down trees. I need a way to connect my rope puller rope that terminates with a metal hook to the pull rope tied high up in the tree.

 

[preventec47]

There are a few ways to make a wrap that I am aware of. The basic concept is to wrap the line around the tree then tuck one end under the wrap. As the line pulls tight the wrap tightens around the loose end. Until you try it it will mean nothing. I have yet to see one loosen a little. I pull much larger trees out of hung up trees with just one come a long. I often use a 6,000 lb hydraulic jack for extra support. When a tree is hung up I will jack up the base to move where it needs to be. Three of four wraps with a rope even if it is poor will make a tree very sturdy. Angle jack to the direction you need the tree to go. I also have several larger jacks for the more stubborn trees. Thanks

Yes of course, your "WRAP" is referred to as "Round Turn" in some of the rope books
and with several round turns around an object that the rope can grip to (strangles as it tightens) , all you need to tie the rope off is two or three loose half hitches. There is almost zero tension when you finally get to the knot.

 

[preventec47]

He's been reinventing the wheel this whole project.

Jolly Logger, I dont understand your negative insinuation. I have a project, so far
I have spent about a thousand dollars on equipment and I have made what I thought to be some good choices. I am extremely pleased with the 3 ton Wythe "more power puller" come along winch, I have a robust snatch block and several half inch quick links and a 3/4 inch shackle. My rope just arrived yesterday. I have watched at least thirty you tube videos and been to more than a dozen arbor supply websites.
I have not seen where what you call the "wheel" is nicely laid out with all the details.
Right now I seem to be stuck on how to connect metal hook to the pull line.
This might be the solution to my problem as I cannot figure out how to insert sticks or pins into an Alpine Butterfly loop when tying the knot to make it easy to untie after
big loads on the knot.

It sure seems to me that some kind of hardware device ought to exist
that could be connected to a rope that would allow attachment like what I need
without having to tie knots mid line.

 

[501Maico]

Jolly Logger, I dont understand your negative insinuation. I have a project, so far
I have spent about a thousand dollars on equipment and I have made what I thought to be some good choices. I am extremely pleased with the 3 ton Wythe "more power puller" come along winch, I have a robust snatch block and several half inch quick links and a 3/4 inch shackle. My rope just arrived yesterday. I have watched at least thirty you tube videos and been to more than a dozen arbor supply websites.
I have not seen where what you call the "wheel" is nicely laid out with all the details.
Right now I seem to be stuck on how to connect metal hook to the pull line.
This might be the solution to my problem as I cannot figure out how to insert sticks or pins into an Alpine Butterfly loop when tying the knot to make it easy to untie after
big loads on the knot.

It sure seems to me that some kind of hardware device ought to exist
that could be connected to a rope that would allow attachment like what I need
without having to tie knots mid line.

I wouldn't use a alpine butterfly which is best for right angle loads. The directional knot like shown in the video works well and it won't bind up under load.
Also, yanking a bush out with a moving truck and pulling over a tree are very different.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

That should work, as an evolution to fig.8,9,10 (Life on a Line) strategies.
This pulls more properly along the length of the rope by design,
where a B'Fly really is designed to not pull eye, or pull less than mains/ends
AND at perpendicular angle to rest of rope.
Any pull to eye, BALANCED to each end, knot staying centered. not distorted to one side.
.
In the end seems to me B'Fly not designed for this usage;
and actually mostly does better than it should in this usage;
because it is so good,
not failing as does so bad, is really pulled wrong and doing all it can!
.
Usually can get B'Fly straightened out by giving a more major pull end2end to re-align B'Fly to Natural position/parts alignment. Then work out.
As a pre-fix can put removable stick or pin in so can't seat as tight.
ALSO, if dress/seat ropeParts tight, so it can't get a running start on a jam, especially to errant position;
because is already well seated, seems to help..
Just as would be best to align and seat well in other materials of wood, plastic, metal..;
to really give tool a chance to shine.

 

[windblown]

Right now I seem to be stuck on how to connect metal hook to the pull line.

It sure seems to me that some kind of hardware device ought to exist
that could be connected to a rope that would allow attachment like what I need
without having to tie knots mid line.

There are a few. You could use a progress capture pulley or gibbs for example to attach anywhere you wanted and move it as desired but they are pricey and very hard on ropes when heavily loaded, not recommended. Here is a video of the technique I mentioned earlier. They are using a fiddle block to pull the tree but the device used to create the force doesn't matter. You can attach your hook from your winch in the same way. The details of the rigging set-up start at about 3:50 in the video. The bottom line is if you are seriously loading up a mainline/bullrope then a midline knot is going to be troublesome regardless of the rope type used.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

yes absolutely, Stored energy like GUNPOWDER. an embarrassing story.....
several years ago my mom wanted me to dig up a bush in front of her house
and I had stumbled across a section of big rope at a garage sale approx 1.25 inch
dia that was synthetic and had a core and cover. I had used it several times for
towing stuck vehicles out of ditch etc. So I tied it around the bush and the trailer hitch on my Dodge Ram 1500. I tried to gently pull the bush after digging around the
roots etc but it would not budge so I started getting little running starts with about 50 feet between the bush and the truck.. Finally at about ten mph the jerk worked.
There was a gradual slowing down as the rope stretched like a rubber band and
At exactly the same time as the bush was yanked out, the rope broke at the knot
on my trailer ball. There was a sound of an explosion like a gun shot and then
crashing glass. The fifty feet of rope had shot over the bush and through
all three front facing windows of my moms living room taking out the window
framing as well. THIS is why I am against dynamic rope.

No, this is why you don't buy bullrope at garage sales... and yanking a bush has nothing to do with pulling trees.

 

[preventec47]

There are a few. You could use a progress capture pulley or gibbs for example to attach anywhere you wanted and move it as desired but they are pricey and very hard on ropes when heavily loaded, not recommended. Here is a video of the technique I mentioned earlier. They are using a fiddle block to pull the tree but the device used to create the force doesn't matter. You can attach your hook from your winch in the same way. The details of the rigging set-up start at about 3:50 in the video. The bottom line is if you are seriously loading up a mainline/bullrope then a midline knot is going to be troublesome regardless of the rope type used.

That video was pretty impressive and the caribener and micro pulley would be easy
to acquire but I have no idea what kind of rope would be needed with the two small
eyelets that wrapped around the pull rope and then hooked into the caribener.
Since my pull rope is intended to be the half inch Tenex Tec ...... where would I acquire the short rope needed as used in the video ? The iceing on the cake in that video is that they were able to pull out all the loose rope and tension it all before using up the slack in the pulley block system. I will be using two pulleys which ends up being a 3 to 1 advantage I think.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

Jolly Logger, I dont understand your negative insinuation. I have a project, so far
I have spent about a thousand dollars on equipment and I have made what I thought to be some good choices. I am extremely pleased with the 3 ton Wythe "more power puller" come along winch, I have a robust snatch block and several half inch quick links and a 3/4 inch shackle. My rope just arrived yesterday. I have watched at least thirty you tube videos and been to more than a dozen arbor supply websites.
I have not seen where what you call the "wheel" is nicely laid out with all the details.
Right now I seem to be stuck on how to connect metal hook to the pull line.
This might be the solution to my problem as I cannot figure out how to insert sticks or pins into an Alpine Butterfly loop when tying the knot to make it easy to untie after
big loads on the knot.

It sure seems to me that some kind of hardware device ought to exist
that could be connected to a rope that would allow attachment like what I need
without having to tie knots mid line.

Overwhelmingly it was recommended you go with a masdaam... you went with the more power puller, causing your attachment problems. No one recommended tenex, yet here you are. How is that not reinventing the wheel?

 

[windblown]

That video was pretty impressive and the caribener and micro pulley would be easy
to acquire but I have no idea what kind of rope would be needed with the two small
eyelets that wrapped around the pull rope and then hooked into the caribener.
Since my pull rope is intended to be the half inch Tenex Tec ...... where would I acquire the short rope needed as used in the video ? The iceing on the cake in that video is that they were able to pull out all the loose rope and tension it all before using up the slack in the pulley block system. I will be using two pulleys which ends up being a 3 to 1 advantage I think.

The smaller rope with the sewn eyelets is commonly called a Prusik cord and are available premade in various lengths and diameters. I use 10mm diameter but am using a slightly thicker bull rope. You may need to go down to 8mm to get a good grip on 1/2" line, it depends some on how stiff the prusik cord and bull rope are, and how slick the covering is etc. My advice if you want to go that route is to get a 10mm and an 8mm diameter cord and do some on the ground testing first. Something around 30" to 36" should work to let you get enough wraps for a good grab.

There are several different ways to skin this cat. The Auto-block (French Prusik) shown in the video has a (undeserved IMHO) reputation for slipping easier than some other friction hitches but those making that claim tend to only use 4 wraps. 7 to 8 wraps creates a much stronger grip. I'd trust a 7 wrap auto-block over a std 3 or 4 wrap prusik. The Klemheist is another directional friction hitch that works well if enough wraps are used but for this one particular use I think the auto-block works great and it's pretty foolproof and quick to set up.

 

[northmanlogging]

Use this all the time, pulling with a 20000# winch, never had it not come loose, though like any knot it can weaken the rope at the knot.

Its not "tested or OSHA approved" as I'm pretty sure this is from the damaged brain of a gyppo logger and punk rock "icon" but it does work well



Its basically just a mid line clove hitch tied to itself, make your loops like you would a normal clove, the take the top and pull it down and back up through the loops, hopefully the video shows it better, though I do tend to ramble.

 

[northmanlogging]

It has slipped one time, but all it did was tighten down on the shackle, and that was with a 3-1 hooked back to the skidder and pulling pretty hard... things got squirrelly but the knot held and the tree went mostly were it was supposed to.

 

[preventec47]

Overwhelmingly it was recommended you go with a masdaam... you went with the more power puller, causing your attachment problems. No one recommended tenex, yet here you are. How is that not reinventing the wheel?

I could not get comfortable with the idea of a friction based come-along tensioned on a tree leaning in the wrong direction that needs to be pulled backwards. Plus the
More Power Puller is a real winch with more pull power than the Maasdam Puller. It is true that with the Massdam puller you could pull the entire length of the rope without connection ..... Your comments convinced me I would be ok with the Alpine Butterfly as a connection between the Wythe Puller and my pull rope so that is one reason why I bought it. Turns out your comments were bad advice and I should have asked you if you had ever actually tried what you were suggesting. Regardless I am very appreciative regarding your many helpful suggestions and the permanent loops
are in what I call a practice nylon rope. The cost of the lesson was pretty small.
I dont recall any suggestions for my main new pull rope so I picked the Tenex Tec
based on factory strength and stretch specs and cost and was told by factory rep
that it was braided which sounded fine to me AND the factory describes it as a WINCH rope. That sounded awfully good. No where did I see that the Tenex TEC rope was a hollow braided tube. The new rope was delivered last night and I just opened the box this morning.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

I never recommended an alpine butterfly on 3 strand or tenex.

 

[Harmon]

Ive heard the tenex makes pretty good winch line, tho its got nothing on the amsteel blue, which is also hollow braid. Dont tie knots in your winch line is still a rule. Easy to splice, though.

Now come alongs come along in all different sizes, and instead of knots and friction hitches if a guy realllllly wants to pull trees agin their lean with come alongs, maybe he needs 2 of them? You could ratchet up a bunch of pull, and when your spool gets full up start pulling with the next one? could be fun?

Also, there are metal devices a guy could use midline instead of a knot or friction hitch. Your porta wraps, and various rigging figure 8s. It might be wrong, but it could work. More so than golf tees in a alpine butterfly. But, $$$

 

[benjo75]

That's what I was thinking. A large port a wrap. We've pulled trees over with it. Buried the bucket truck two days ago. No good place on the back of the tractor to connect the rope. Connected the port a wrap to the tractor with a big clevis, set the tractor on the pavement, took up the slack and tied the rope to the port a wrap and pulled it out using two 3/4 stable braid. It was buried all the way around.