cambistat questions
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mckeetree
Addicted to ArboristSite
I have had mixed results with that product. We did some test groups of trees at our expense early on to get an idea of what we could claim were expected results. It works pretty well on Oaks that are going to be exposed to construction stress if used pre-construction. You do need a license to use it.
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PurdueJoe
ArboristSite Operative
While I was interviewing with some companies up in Chicago they showed me some oaks they treated with cambistat and it seemed to work very well when compared to the neighboring properties that didn't treat. By well meaning the treated trees had little to no die back and the untreated trees had up to 4 feet of tip die back.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
One problem is that the trees still need water. If they are going to be drought stressed then there is not real reason to pay the price.
mckeetree
Addicted to ArboristSite
I have looked for the last hour trying to find some pictures I have that were taken four years apart of some trees we treated with paclobutrazol but could not lay my hands on them. I will find them tomorrow and scan them.
Last week at the ISA conference I had the privilege to spend an evening discussing the benefits of Paclobutrazol. The produce is called ShortStop, and is the same as Cambistat. Same active ingredient, but I believe this product is less expensive and more concentrated.
Two of the gentleman each had twenty some years each studying Paclobutrazol. One was a research scientist from Dow Chemical Company, the other is a field researcher and proprietor of ShortStop. Two other gentleman were from Green Pro Solutions, marketors of ShortStop and other PHC products. And, let’s not leave out the wife of the field researcher who was also very knowledgeable of the use and benefits of Paclobutrazol. We had a wonderful dinner together.
We discussed in length the working of Paclo down to the cellular level, how it worked, etc.. I’m very impressed with the potential of this chemical and plan on using it much more. Research is now being done with application rates on shrubbery. I highly recommend ShortStop (Paclobratzol) for use as a tree growth regular.
Here is some contact information on ShortStop (Paclobutrazol).
Proprietor: Mark 877-902-7467, [email protected]
Distributors: Gary and Keith Maurer , 866-609-4172, www.greenprosolutions.com
Two of the gentleman each had twenty some years each studying Paclobutrazol. One was a research scientist from Dow Chemical Company, the other is a field researcher and proprietor of ShortStop. Two other gentleman were from Green Pro Solutions, marketors of ShortStop and other PHC products. And, let’s not leave out the wife of the field researcher who was also very knowledgeable of the use and benefits of Paclobutrazol. We had a wonderful dinner together.
We discussed in length the working of Paclo down to the cellular level, how it worked, etc.. I’m very impressed with the potential of this chemical and plan on using it much more. Research is now being done with application rates on shrubbery. I highly recommend ShortStop (Paclobratzol) for use as a tree growth regular.
Here is some contact information on ShortStop (Paclobutrazol).
Proprietor: Mark 877-902-7467, [email protected]
Distributors: Gary and Keith Maurer , 866-609-4172, www.greenprosolutions.com
mckeetree
Addicted to ArboristSite
The main thing about using those products is to get a feel for the correct application rates. Most provide a chart that is specific to the type and size of the tree or trees to be treated but there are other factors to be taken into consideration like the overall condition of the tree, soil type and condition of the root flare to name a few. Otherwise you may look at the tree in a year and say "Lord o' misery, what have I done to this tree?"
PurdueJoe
ArboristSite Operative
Great time for this thread. I just sold a job for treatment for a PGR with Cambistat in mind but after doing some research found shortstop and was wondering how it compared. If its the same active chemical with the same concentration but costs less I'm all over it. I can't wait for Tree-age's patent to wear off, great product but very pricey.
Yes, ShortStop is the same active ingredient- Paclobutrazol. I believe it is a higher concentration. They also have done the research and have a rate sheet.
Thanks everyone for the good info, unfortunately I am not licensed to use this product. Something else to work on putting under my belt. I'm not a big believer in chemicals and just stick to doing my thing with the saws. I have customers asking me about this product so I thought I'd get some info. A customer of mine was told to use cabistat by another arborist on her spruce trees to keep them from growing any larger. How hard is it to get my herbicide and pesticide license?
It's not that hard. You need to take the core exam (which is closed book) and then the Category 6 for Trees and Shrubs (which is open book). The core is tougher because it's a lot of memorizing rates, formulas, and basic techniques and principals of all facets of pesticide application. It really just comes down to studying a lot. Read all the books that come with the study packet and bookmark key sections for the open book part.
It is my understanding large spruce trees over 6 inches diameter are not effected much by Paclo.
Chris Francis
Obsessed with trees
Shortstop v. Cambistat
I have used both products (Shortstop and Cambistat) quite extensively. There seems to be no noticeable difference between the two. Both actually have the exact same amount of active ingredients: 22.3% paclobutrazol. The paclobutrazol is the magic maker. Rainbow claims that the Cambistat has some inactive ingredients that help with the uptake of the AI, but I haven't seen anything to confirm that. Customer service for both products is exceptional; Rainbow does have a slightly more professional image, but there are significant cost savings with the Shortstop. I like the basal application method: I take a little trowel, small shovel, or air excavation tool to make a small trench around the base, then it is basically like pouring milk around the tree.
Labels:
http://63.76.74.84/images/products/Shortstop_Container_Label.pdf
http://www.cttreewardens.org/resources/cambistat/labelMSDS/CambistatLabel.pdf
Paclobutrazol-containing products are considered pesticides, therefore a pesticide license is required to apply commercially, but it is not regulated - meaning there should be no problem with a homeowner making his own application, that is if (s)he can find the product for sale somewhere. Now, what pesticide is it? Insecticide: no, although treated trees are better able to fight off insects or recover from damage. Fungicide: actually it was developed to treat fungal problems, but was shelved because it stunted the growth of plants treated; so there are some fungicidal properties, but that is not why it is commonly used. Herbicide: maybe; even though we normally think of an herbicide as something that kills weeds, but the definition commonly includes those that inhibit growth as well. Bacteriacide: there again, there are some antibacterial properties, but likely because the tree's health and defensive system improves. But after all that rambling, the EPA lists various types of pesticides, and among them are:
Plant growth regulators - Substances (excluding fertilizers or other plant nutrients) that alter the expected growth, flowering, or reproduction rate of plants. So, it is not a miracle cream, but it is pretty dawg gone close. And there really are few negative side effects, mostly slightly smaller leaves and a darker green appearance.
Here is a question though, in comparing the two:
Why do the two products have different application rates and instructions?
I treated a 44" laurel oak (Quercus hemisphaerica) today with Shortstop TGR. I looked on the application chart for Shortstop, but for grins, I glanced at the Cambistat application rate chart as well. Here is what I found (sorry, I don't have a link to the charts, but follow along):
Cambistat = Category F (highest one), rate is 8,798 ml RTU (ready-to-use), and label says to take a 25% deduction for stress (construction damage, etc...) and an additional deduction for missing canopy (pruning, broken branches, dead branches, etc...)
Shortstop = Category 3.5 (one away from the highest), rate is 7,700 ml RTU, but the label has no instructions for reducing the rate for stress or canopy loss (although I have talked to the developer, who said to take a deduction for canopy loss, but not for stress).
I noticed quickly that if the Shortstop rate was the maximum, it would have been 8,800 ml RTU, which is really close to the Cambistat rate. Then again, if you take the Cambistat rate (8,798) and take the 25% deduction for stress (which this tree had from construction damage - the installation of an irrigation system (that's a whole 'nother topic), then you would be at 6,600 RTU; then take another 15% deduction for canopy loss, due to dead branches and pruning - which this tree had, you would be at 5,609 ml RTU.
I feared overtreatment, but did not want to undertreat, so I went by the Shortstop rate (after all, that was the chemical I was using), then took a total 25% deduction for combined stress and missing canopy; which put me at 5,775 ml RTU. I felt pretty comfortable with that number because it was close to the number I would have arrived at using the rates and calculations for Cambistat.
So, if you get Aleve or generic naproxen sodium, the instructions will be the exact same. Better yet, if you compare Round-Up to many of the generic glyphosates (as long as they have the same percentage of active ingredients), the application rates should be the same, although I have noticed significant differences in suggestions for cut stump treatments, but I digress. Why the difference in these two chemicals that are designed to do the same growth regulation?
I have used both products (Shortstop and Cambistat) quite extensively. There seems to be no noticeable difference between the two. Both actually have the exact same amount of active ingredients: 22.3% paclobutrazol. The paclobutrazol is the magic maker. Rainbow claims that the Cambistat has some inactive ingredients that help with the uptake of the AI, but I haven't seen anything to confirm that. Customer service for both products is exceptional; Rainbow does have a slightly more professional image, but there are significant cost savings with the Shortstop. I like the basal application method: I take a little trowel, small shovel, or air excavation tool to make a small trench around the base, then it is basically like pouring milk around the tree.
Labels:
http://63.76.74.84/images/products/Shortstop_Container_Label.pdf
http://www.cttreewardens.org/resources/cambistat/labelMSDS/CambistatLabel.pdf
Paclobutrazol-containing products are considered pesticides, therefore a pesticide license is required to apply commercially, but it is not regulated - meaning there should be no problem with a homeowner making his own application, that is if (s)he can find the product for sale somewhere. Now, what pesticide is it? Insecticide: no, although treated trees are better able to fight off insects or recover from damage. Fungicide: actually it was developed to treat fungal problems, but was shelved because it stunted the growth of plants treated; so there are some fungicidal properties, but that is not why it is commonly used. Herbicide: maybe; even though we normally think of an herbicide as something that kills weeds, but the definition commonly includes those that inhibit growth as well. Bacteriacide: there again, there are some antibacterial properties, but likely because the tree's health and defensive system improves. But after all that rambling, the EPA lists various types of pesticides, and among them are:
Plant growth regulators - Substances (excluding fertilizers or other plant nutrients) that alter the expected growth, flowering, or reproduction rate of plants. So, it is not a miracle cream, but it is pretty dawg gone close. And there really are few negative side effects, mostly slightly smaller leaves and a darker green appearance.
Here is a question though, in comparing the two:
Why do the two products have different application rates and instructions?
I treated a 44" laurel oak (Quercus hemisphaerica) today with Shortstop TGR. I looked on the application chart for Shortstop, but for grins, I glanced at the Cambistat application rate chart as well. Here is what I found (sorry, I don't have a link to the charts, but follow along):
Cambistat = Category F (highest one), rate is 8,798 ml RTU (ready-to-use), and label says to take a 25% deduction for stress (construction damage, etc...) and an additional deduction for missing canopy (pruning, broken branches, dead branches, etc...)
Shortstop = Category 3.5 (one away from the highest), rate is 7,700 ml RTU, but the label has no instructions for reducing the rate for stress or canopy loss (although I have talked to the developer, who said to take a deduction for canopy loss, but not for stress).
I noticed quickly that if the Shortstop rate was the maximum, it would have been 8,800 ml RTU, which is really close to the Cambistat rate. Then again, if you take the Cambistat rate (8,798) and take the 25% deduction for stress (which this tree had from construction damage - the installation of an irrigation system (that's a whole 'nother topic), then you would be at 6,600 RTU; then take another 15% deduction for canopy loss, due to dead branches and pruning - which this tree had, you would be at 5,609 ml RTU.
I feared overtreatment, but did not want to undertreat, so I went by the Shortstop rate (after all, that was the chemical I was using), then took a total 25% deduction for combined stress and missing canopy; which put me at 5,775 ml RTU. I felt pretty comfortable with that number because it was close to the number I would have arrived at using the rates and calculations for Cambistat.
So, if you get Aleve or generic naproxen sodium, the instructions will be the exact same. Better yet, if you compare Round-Up to many of the generic glyphosates (as long as they have the same percentage of active ingredients), the application rates should be the same, although I have noticed significant differences in suggestions for cut stump treatments, but I digress. Why the difference in these two chemicals that are designed to do the same growth regulation?
Ed Roland
Addicted to ArboristSite
Cambistat and shortstop are 22.3% ai and Profile 2sc is only 21.8 % ai. Yet, all labels tell us 1 gal ai to 12 gal water for dilute mixture.
but, Rainbows Cambistat Tree Reference List tells us
"DO NOT USE this rate chart for other growth regulators products. Different active,
concentration amounts and inert ingredients could deliver undesirable results."
Not negatives at all. These are desirable effects of treatment.
Iustinian
ArboristSite Operative
We've used them on oaks
We've used them on mostly very mature white oaks, and bur oaks with decent success, but I agree with the previous posters, that its more effective pre-construction damage.
In one particular situation, we had a wealthy customer with a driveway being poured all the way around a giant bur oak. We've been doing cambistat treatments on it and its doing great.
One thing to remember though, if you're going to prune, do it BEFORE the treatment, because if I remember right, one of the ways it works is by slowing down the terminal buds - so if you prune those off, its going to render your cambistat treatment useless.
We've used them on mostly very mature white oaks, and bur oaks with decent success, but I agree with the previous posters, that its more effective pre-construction damage.
In one particular situation, we had a wealthy customer with a driveway being poured all the way around a giant bur oak. We've been doing cambistat treatments on it and its doing great.
One thing to remember though, if you're going to prune, do it BEFORE the treatment, because if I remember right, one of the ways it works is by slowing down the terminal buds - so if you prune those off, its going to render your cambistat treatment useless.
Chris Francis
Obsessed with trees
TGR Questions
You have about a month. This is from Rainbow's website:
When should I apply Cambistat relative to pruning?
Depending on the desired results:
* For optimum growth control, Cambistat should be applied 60 – 90 days prior to pruning while the tree is actively growing.
* For a more natural look, apply Cambistat at the time of pruning or up to 30 days after pruning.
Info for Homeowners • TreecareScience.com
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It takes a while for the chemical to translocate through the plant. But, yes, if you wait too long, you can prune the product out of the tree because it stores in the tips of the branches, where it works its magic.
You have about a month. This is from Rainbow's website:
When should I apply Cambistat relative to pruning?
Depending on the desired results:
* For optimum growth control, Cambistat should be applied 60 – 90 days prior to pruning while the tree is actively growing.
* For a more natural look, apply Cambistat at the time of pruning or up to 30 days after pruning.
Info for Homeowners • TreecareScience.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It takes a while for the chemical to translocate through the plant. But, yes, if you wait too long, you can prune the product out of the tree because it stores in the tips of the branches, where it works its magic.
Intrigued, I've been doing a little reading.
I found this: it is a basic research (sort-of) report on paclobutrazol. Curiously, it sports an advertisement for a tree growth regulator at the end of the article, so I question the neutrality of the publisher. http://www.sepro.com/documents/Profile_article.pdf
I also found this little gem: WEED DEALINGS - KEEP YOUR PACLOBUTRAZOL OFF MY NUGS | VICE
Apparently the professional cannabis growers have been using paclobutrazol bearing products to enhance the marketability and profits of their weed.
I found this: it is a basic research (sort-of) report on paclobutrazol. Curiously, it sports an advertisement for a tree growth regulator at the end of the article, so I question the neutrality of the publisher. http://www.sepro.com/documents/Profile_article.pdf
I also found this little gem: WEED DEALINGS - KEEP YOUR PACLOBUTRAZOL OFF MY NUGS | VICE
Apparently the professional cannabis growers have been using paclobutrazol bearing products to enhance the marketability and profits of their weed.
Chris Francis
Obsessed with trees
Tree Growth Regulator Point Clear, AL
The stuff is not a cure-all, but it is as close as it gets. Bear in mind, it does not "save" all trees either. I have never had to remove one that I treated, but I have an appointment this week with a client that had a rotten laurel oak that needed to come down, but he was reluctant to remove it 2 years ago, so he had me prune out the dead and treat it with TGR. I told him then it was a long shot, but he was willing to try it and hang onto his tree for as long as possible. Now, I am thinking the tree will have to be removed this time around, but I haven't seen it yet; word on the street is that it looks really rough though.
Baldwin & Mobile County Alabama
The stuff is not a cure-all, but it is as close as it gets. Bear in mind, it does not "save" all trees either. I have never had to remove one that I treated, but I have an appointment this week with a client that had a rotten laurel oak that needed to come down, but he was reluctant to remove it 2 years ago, so he had me prune out the dead and treat it with TGR. I told him then it was a long shot, but he was willing to try it and hang onto his tree for as long as possible. Now, I am thinking the tree will have to be removed this time around, but I haven't seen it yet; word on the street is that it looks really rough though.
Baldwin & Mobile County Alabama
treevet
Addicted to ArboristSite
It being approved by the EPA may be enough to satisfy them. Here is a nice informational regarding tgr's although nothing further than that re what you are curious about...
https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/FNR/FNR-252-W.pdf
https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/FNR/FNR-252-W.pdf
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