Chip and bucket truck mods

[mikewhite85]

Hey guys. Thought I'd see if you guys have any thoughts on some potential trucks mods/builds I'm considering.

I recently bought 2 trucks to expand our crew and capabilities:
f650 dump truck with 16/ bed
f750 bucket with 75' elevator boom
I have both at a fabricator shop now to clean them up.

In addition to this we already have:
f650 60' forestery bucket
f350 12' Dump (almost always overloaded with chips)
F450 flatbed with mini skid ramp, tool boxes, and transfer tank- to haul dump trailer. Sometimes use to haul both mini skid and tractor simultaneously.
f350 crew cab flat bed. often in tandem with 16' ultility trailer to haul mini skid and stump grinder.


Originally I had thought I would just turn the 650 into a 16' chip dump truck and use the f750 as is but then I started thinking...

I have one CDL driver on our team, who is also the main bucket guy. I found out the f750 weighs 25,600 empty. So I could classify it as 26k under cdl if my drivers have air brake endorsements. I don't think I'd do this since 2 guys wet will weigh over 400 pounds in the cab. I'm not sure if I've ever seen an elevator truck under CDL. But it was a thought...

THAT SAID, I had an idea. Tell if I'm crazy or not.

What if we take the 3000 pound or so 11' chip bed off of the f750 and weld it to the f650 dump? Then we could create a mini skid platform on the dump between the cab and the dump bed.

Then we could install a light weight flat bed on the f750 bucket where the chip box was previously. I could leave the dump hoist underneath and could use it to haul plywood- or even put some small log bunks on the side to haul the occasional saw log. Without the chip box I'd have at least a couple thousand pounds to play with under 26k.

So basically, we would have a sick chip truck with mini skid platform AND an under CDL elevator truck that could haul light loads.

Does that makes sense? What do you guys think? Have you guys done any similar projects?

 

[pdqdl]

You said:

...I found out the f750 weighs 25,600 empty. So I could classify it as 26k under cdl if my drivers have air brake endorsements. I don't think I'd do this since 2 guys wet will weigh over 400 pounds in the cab. I'm not sure if I've ever seen an elevator truck under CDL. But it was a thought...

No, you can't.

It makes no difference whatsoever how much the truck actually weighs. The thing that counts is what the manufacturer printed on the plate inside the driver's door. This is what is called the GVWR. Even if you strip that truck down to an 8,000lb sports model, it's Gross Vehicle Weight Rating will remain unchanged. Similarly, you can pile all sorts of equipment onto that truck and it might tip the scales at 32K on an under 26K GVWR. I don't think, however, that you can find an under-CDL truck with air brakes on it. I'll bet the GVWR of your truck is somewhere close to 30K (12k front axle, 18K rear axle)

In the final analysis, you would be wasting your time moving equipment around to manage the truck's weight for CDL considerations alone, when the actual weight has no bearing on the GVWR of a truck. You'd do all that work, and nothing would have changed with respect to the driver's license required for each truck.

As to getting an air brake endorsement on a non-cdl license? I don't think that is possible, but I might be wrong.

 

[pdqdl]

I suspect that the one CDL driver on your team isn't you, otherwise you would probably have known the stuff in my previous post.

Get the book and study up. Put a chipper on the back of that CDL truck, practice your pre-trip inspections, and learn how to get that CDL license yourself. It really isn't that hard to do.

Once you become expert at getting the license, now you can train your other guys to get their own license, and you don't have to sweat the details about getting a driver. With more than one CDL driver, you won't be handicapped so badly with your work assignments to the crew and you won't be quite as likely to put up with misconduct from a bad-actor with the only CDL on your team (should you ever have that problem).

BTW: Don't EVER hire a CDL driver without getting a drug test before you let them sit behind the wheel. That comes with a $2000 fine from the USDOT, should they ever audit you.

 

[mikewhite85]

Wise words.

I'll leave the bucket as is, aside from cosmetic repairs. I suppose we'll all have to start working on that CDL.

Question, is a class A required for any combination above 26k? I've heard that you can have a 26k truck and as long as the trailer is less than 10k you're ok with a class C. For example, do you technically need a class A to tow a 6500 pound chipper behind a 26k F650?

Still deciding what to do with that f650 dump. I could fabricate a mini skid platform between the cab and a 12 dump bed- OR just create a 16' chip box. I'l definitely be skirting the line on overweight with a full load of chips.

 

[pdqdl]

Class A is any combination of a vehicle over 26k OR any trailer over 10k. Even a child's wagon strapped to the back of a Class B vehicle make it Class A.

My one ton truck towing a 10,001 GVWR trailer is also a class A combination. Now that particular combination doesn't require air brakes, which would leave you unable to drive your over 26k Class B truck.

 

[tree MDS]

Dude, that’s completely wrong.

For starters my international 4300 chip truck is 25,500 gvw (or whatever), air brakes, and you can tow any trailer you want with just a med card (as long as it’s under 10,000 pound gvw). No air brake endorsement nothing. The trailer being 10k or over is what makes it class A. Any Joe Blow Cumberland Farms retard with a regular drivers license can tow my 6800lb chipper with that truck with just a med card and regular license (not that that’s the goal lol). The catch is you have to be at least 18,, not 14 Lol.

The loophole is that you can tow a trailer over 10k as long as the combined weight is under 26,000 (maybe technically 26,001, I forget offhand).

I hope I said that as NICELY as possible!!

 

[tree MDS]

And you can tow any trailer up to 10,000 gvwr in a class B truck (if you have a class B) without a class A.

 

[lone wolf]

Dude, that’s completely wrong.

For starters my international 4300 chip truck is 25,500 gvw (or whatever), air brakes, and you can tow any trailer you want with just a med card (as long as it’s under 10,000 pound gvw). No air brake endorsement nothing. The trailer being 10k or over is what makes it class A. Any Joe Blow Cumberland Farms retard with a regular drivers license can tow my 6800lb chipper with that truck with just a med card and regular license (not that that’s the goal lol). The catch is you have to be at least 18,, not 14 Lol.

The loophole is that you can tow a trailer over 10k as long as the combined weight is under 26,000 (maybe technically 26,001, I forget offhand).

I hope I said that as NICELY as possible!!

Well that's interesting.

 

[tree MDS]

Wise words.

I'll leave the bucket as is, aside from cosmetic repairs. I suppose we'll all have to start working on that CDL.

Question, is a class A required for any combination above 26k? I've heard that you can have a 26k truck and as long as the trailer is less than 10k you're ok with a class C. For example, do you technically need a class A to tow a 6500 pound chipper behind a 26k F650?

Still deciding what to do with that f650 dump. I could fabricate a mini skid platform between the cab and a 12 dump bed- OR just create a 16' chip box. I'l definitely be skirting the line on overweight with a full load of chips.

No.

 

[pdqdl]

Dude, that’s completely wrong.

For starters my international 4300 chip truck is 25,500 gvw (or whatever), air brakes, and you can tow any trailer you want with just a med card (as long as it’s under 10,000 pound gvw). No air brake endorsement nothing. The trailer being 10k or over is what makes it class A. Any Joe Blow Cumberland Farms retard with a regular drivers license can tow my 6800lb chipper with that truck with just a med card and regular license (not that that’s the goal lol). The catch is you have to be at least 18,, not 14 Lol.

The loophole is that you can tow a trailer over 10k as long as the combined weight is under 26,000 (maybe technically 26,001, I forget offhand).

I hope I said that as NICELY as possible!!

<Erroneous statements have been deleted>

You are right. I stand corrected!
If your truck combination is OVER 26k (GCWR), then it's class A or B according to the GVWR of your "towed vehicle". Your truck combination is under 26k GVWR, so without an over 10k trailer, it's at most a class B license, and possibly just a class E "for hire" license required (with medical, as you mentioned). ONLY, however, if the Gross Carrier Weight Rating (both vehicles) is less than 26,001lbs.
So your 17,000lb GVWR Ford F-450 plus your dumping trailer with a GVWR of 10k (under 10,001 lbs!) still requires a class B CDL. Add an air brake endorsement if your truck has 'em.

Not clearly stated: I don't think the Federal DOT regulates below 26k. Your state may vary, but Missouri requires a "for hire" license, even if you are driving your own car to deliver pizza. As I recall, Kansas does not have any such requirement, so that will be a local item to discover for each state.

Air brakes are a separate endorsement, regardless of the GVWR or the class of license, as you somewhat suggested. In my experience, most trucks with air brakes are over 26k GVWR, but that's not a rule of any sort. Quite frankly, I don't know if any air brake endorsement is required on an under 26k truck. I've never read anything in the driver's guides about that.

 

[pdqdl]

In your state: "A combination vehicle with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 or more pounds, provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds. "

Read up here: https://portal.ct.gov/-/media/DMV/20/29/CTCDLDriverManualFINAL122015pdf.pdf

This might help:
It's no wonder folks have a hard time figuring these rules out.
Notice that step one on this chart from the Mo. CDL handbook calls for an answer to less than 26k GCWR, yet following that no answer, they point straight at the "is it over 26k GVWR" question. I don't think it is possible to say "no" to the under 26k GCWR and still say "yes" to over 26K GVWR.

 

[ClimberBusinessman]

You're right, you can have a 10k gvwr trailer and a 26,000k rated truck and be under CDL.

"Question: A driver operates a tractor of exactly 26,000 pounds Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR), towing a trailer of exactly 10,000 pounds GVWR, for a GCWR of 36,000 pounds. Hazardous materials and passengers are not involved. Is it a Commercial Motor Vehicle (CMV)s and does the driver need a CDL?

Guidance: No to both questions. Although the vehicle has a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of 36,000 pounds, it is not a Commercial Motor Vehicle (CMV) under any part of the definition of that term in 49 C.F.R.§383.5, and a CDL is not federally required."

https://www.in.gov/bmv/registration-plates/vehicle-registrations/commercial-vehicle-information/

However, if you go over 10k rating on trailer, you have to have a CDL unless the total can kept under 26,000k. For a truck, you can never exceed 26,000k rating without a CDL. However, getting a CDL these days does unfortunately require truck driving school. This is a new rule the DOT did a year or two ago.

Wise words.

I'll leave the bucket as is, aside from cosmetic repairs. I suppose we'll all have to start working on that CDL.

Question, is a class A required for any combination above 26k? I've heard that you can have a 26k truck and as long as the trailer is less than 10k you're ok with a class C. For example, do you technically need a class A to tow a 6500 pound chipper behind a 26k F650?

Still deciding what to do with that f650 dump. I could fabricate a mini skid platform between the cab and a 12 dump bed- OR just create a 16' chip box. I'l definitely be skirting the line on overweight with a full load of chips.

 

[pdqdl]

From your link: (for a Class A CDL) "A gross combination weight rating or gross combination weight of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more), whichever is greater, inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds), whichever is greater."

That sounds like it goes back to my original statement of "any" combination of 26k+ and any trailer. Confusing, eh?

And in my state ANY combination with a 10k trailer is CDL A required. MORE confusion, as that is in direct conflict with your state's rules.

Now I'm not saying you are wrong, but it sounds like Indiana wrote their rules wrong. At no point does that text refer to Gross Carrier Weight Rating by that term, so they clearly are not following the federal guidelines very precisely.

 

[tree MDS]

I think you guys are making this too complicated.

I could have a guy with a regular license and med card tow my lift and trailer with a 14k gvwr with a one ton or 3/4 ton , as long as the gvcwr doesn’t go over 26000lbs. At least that’s the way I understand it.

I don’t do it that way, but as a tree guy, knowing the dmv loopholes is kinda part of the deal imo.

 

[pdqdl]

Possibly. If your 14k GVWR trailer is being towed by anything bigger than a 12,001k truck, you just crossed over into CDL country. If you can get by with a lighter truck, you are in business.

I began all the CDL learning process many years ago. There I was, bumbling down the highway towing my 21k rated trailer with my one-ton. No problem, right? Mr. DOT pulled me over, read the GVWR on the trailer, and then started writing me up. He told me in no uncertain terms that with that 10k trailer, I had to have a CDL.

So I took the ID tag off the trailer! That held 'em off for a couple more years, but they got to the point where they weren't accepting the absence of an ID tag as a reason to not enforce the GVWR rules. I ended up going down to the license bureau to take the CDL test on the last permissable date to "grandfather" a chauffeur's license into a CDL. Unfortunately, even though it was the last legal day to take the test, the examiner refused to let me have it. So... I had to do all the same exams that they make you take now.

 

[tree MDS]

A “Cheauferer’s license”. Lol. Nice try.

 

[tree MDS]

Getting my class A was single-handedly the best move I ever made for my little company.

It allowed me to buy the equipment I wanted, not the equipment I was allowed to drive/tow.

 

[sean donato]

<Erroneous statements have been deleted>

You are right. I stand corrected!
If your truck combination is OVER 26k (GCWR), then it's class A or B according to the GVWR of your "towed vehicle". Your truck combination is under 26k GVWR, so without an over 10k trailer, it's at most a class B license, and possibly just a class E "for hire" license required (with medical, as you mentioned). ONLY, however, if the Gross Carrier Weight Rating (both vehicles) is less than 26,001lbs.
So your 17,000lb GVWR Ford F-450 plus your dumping trailer with a GVWR of 10k (under 10,001 lbs!) still requires a class B CDL. Add an air brake endorsement if your truck has 'em.

Not clearly stated: I don't think the Federal DOT regulates below 26k. Your state may vary, but Missouri requires a "for hire" license, even if you are driving your own car to deliver pizza. As I recall, Kansas does not have any such requirement, so that will be a local item to discover for each state.

Air brakes are a separate endorsement, regardless of the GVWR or the class of license, as you somewhat suggested. In my experience, most trucks with air brakes are over 26k GVWR, but that's not a rule of any sort. Quite frankly, I don't know if any air brake endorsement is required on an under 26k truck. I've never read anything in the driver's guides about that.

State regulations are a nightmare to figure out.
Most recently I have been told here in PA. I need to combination weight my pickup for any trailer over 10k lbs regardless if the gcwr is under 26klbs even though I have my class A cdl. So technically my 14klb dump trailer behind my f250 is illegal even though its strictly for personal use, I'm not over any gvwr or gcwr, and have a class A cdl. On the rare occasion the dump is fully loaded im right over 20klbs.
Also here at least you can have the gvwr and gcwr lowered to under cdl weight, but as far as I know you still need the air brake endorsement to drive it.

 

[pdqdl]

I'm not sure what you are saying. It sounds like you are suggesting that you cannot exceed your GVWR with your actual gross weight.

I've never come across that, and I have been scaled with my trucks at about 10,000 lbs over the trucks GVWR. Exceeding the GVWR is not one of the five ways to get an overweight ticket.

 

[capetrees]

Dude, that’s completely wrong.

For starters my international 4300 chip truck is 25,500 gvw (or whatever), air brakes, and you can tow any trailer you want with just a med card (as long as it’s under 10,000 pound gvw). No air brake endorsement nothing. The trailer being 10k or over is what makes it class A. Any Joe Blow Cumberland Farms retard with a regular drivers license can tow my 6800lb chipper with that truck with just a med card and regular license (not that that’s the goal lol). The catch is you have to be at least 18,, not 14 Lol.

The loophole is that you can tow a trailer over 10k as long as the combined weight is under 26,000 (maybe technically 26,001, I forget offhand).

I hope I said that as NICELY as possible!!