Commercial wood chippers and hearing protection - and update on topping

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TonyGTrees

ArboristSite Lurker
Joined
Oct 28, 2021
Messages
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Location
Bedford Hills, NY
Hello All

I was observing a tree crew recently using a screamingly loud commercial wood chipper on the property where I rent a home. It surprised me that no one was wearing hearing protection. The crew members are mostly or entirely immigrants who speak every broken or no English. But I went out and tried to communicate with them. I had put on my own protective ear muffs and kept pointing to them and saying "protection." One of them answered, "In the truck" and thanked me. But he and the others kept working, guiding these huge branches or trunks into the machine, which was painfully loud with my protection.

I called the company owner who said that they have protection. But he said wood chippers are very dangerous and his workers feel safer working without it. Is this acceptable? Is it his responsibility to make sure they are using hearing protection, or is it okay that they don't? Do you or your crews ever forgo hearing protection when using a wood chipper? Is there ever a good reason not to wear it?

Incidentally, this is the same company that, in a post here in October (https://www.arboristsite.com/threads/commercial-wood-chippers-and-hearing-protection.359076/), I said was topping Norway spruces on a property where I'm renting a house.

The company just re-topped one and topped another towering spruce that's right next to the property owner's home, removing just the apical meristem, as far as I can tell. I asked the company owner about this, too. He answered: "I don't like topping any trees, but I have to keep my guys working." He added that if a tree gets too tall and the homeowner won't remove it, topping is better than doing nothing - which I know is not the industry position on this.

Now my landlady is angry at me for repeatedly warning her about the harmful effects of topping, as I learn more about it, and urging her to find another tree service, preferably one with a credentialed certified or consulting arborist. "Stay out of my business. I'm letting them do what they want to do," she told me. Oh, well, at least I'll be able to sleep at night if something bad happens. (None of these topped trees are in range of the house I rent, fortunately. But there is a beautiful Norway spruce right outside that she hasn't topped, at least not yet.)

Thank you!

Anthony Giorgianni
 
I worked with large commercial chippers for many years, and hearing protection is a must. There is no reason not to use it. The employer must provide necessary protective equipment by law. Employees are not really required to use it, but I think if an OSHA inspector were to visit he would be doing some writing....Sorry to say but some people are just stupid.....and some employers take advantage of immigrants who have questionable status, and pay them a minimum wage without any training.
 
We certainly see patterns in lower quality companies...often more than one of the following apply:
*Bad practices (topping)
*No PPE - even if on the truck, use isn't enforced
*Poorly maintained equipment (excessively loud chipper may be...but there are some with very nice equipment too)

That is all regardless of citizenship status of their labor. I've seen plenty of companies that are the owner and his kids doing that. A few years ago I was at an auction where 2 brothers had a well-established (variable quality work...) tree business with nice equipment that was being sold off because of personal issues between them. A friend who was very familiar with them texted me while I was there 'there should be plenty of gently used PPE'.

I've got no problem with folks using LEGAL labor of any stripe. But many of the bad actors described above also pay cash, no workers comp, have no or inadequate liability insurance, and do use illegal labor.

What's it mean to you? I'd wonder about how much the landlady cares about maintaining a quality property. When I see things like that I think "I know trees pretty well. And the one thing that I know, I see being managed very poorly. That leads me to assumptions about the way other things are managed that I might not know as much about..." You've let he know your concerns. Probably fruitless to keep harping on those. But is that reflective of the bigger picture in a place you went to remain?
 
We certainly see patterns in lower quality companies...often more than one of the following apply:
*Bad practices (topping)
*No PPE - even if on the truck, use isn't enforced
*Poorly maintained equipment (excessively loud chipper may be...but there are some with very nice equipment too)

That is all regardless of citizenship status of their labor. I've seen plenty of companies that are the owner and his kids doing that. A few years ago I was at an auction where 2 brothers had a well-established (variable quality work...) tree business with nice equipment that was being sold off because of personal issues between them. A friend who was very familiar with them texted me while I was there 'there should be plenty of gently used PPE'.

I've got no problem with folks using LEGAL labor of any stripe. But many of the bad actors described above also pay cash, no workers comp, have no or inadequate liability insurance, and do use illegal labor.

What's it mean to you? I'd wonder about how much the landlady cares about maintaining a quality property. When I see things like that I think "I know trees pretty well. And the one thing that I know, I see being managed very poorly. That leads me to assumptions about the way other things are managed that I might not know as much about..." You've let he know your concerns. Probably fruitless to keep harping on those. But is that reflective of the bigger picture in a place you went to remain?
Thank you for that, Joe is it?

I have to say the bright spot in all this is you and the many others in your profession who get the word about bad practices, including topping, even if it means giving up work.

Having researched this subject in-depth (I'm a consumer journalist), I'm impressed by all the warnings out there not only from university forestry departments, environmental groups and agencies, but also from tree care companies and industry groups such as ISA.

Among the dozens of warnings I found was this from the Tree Care Industry Association: ""Avoid companies that advertise topping, an injurious and unacceptable practice."

And this from a Nashville tree care company: "Some people get downright angry when we tell them we do not want their business if they ask us to top their trees…if any company tells you that topping is the best option for your trees (no matter what the reasoning they give), turn around and run."

Similarly, I recently spoke to a local certified arborist who told me about another property owner who wanted him to top her Norway spruces. When he refused, she vowed to find a company that would! (I did find one just company, in your state, that IS recommending topping under certain circumstances.)

Of course I did send all these warnings to my landlady, who, by the way, owns another property, in Broward County, Fla, which says: "Never top a tree or allow anyone to top one of your trees. Topping is equivalent to butchering a tree. Competent arborists do not top trees. Topping is considered tree abuse and is a violation of Article Fourteen Broward County Code."

I don't think she doesn't care about this 4.5-acre property. I think she simply has been duped by the former owner of the company, who apparently would persuade customers to do all kinds of unnecessary work, according to one of his former employees and the new owner, and then "bilk them for it," as the new owner told me. Every year, he would recommend cutting down more trees, including many that seemed perfectly fine. When I asked him about it, he got really angry and obnoxious. But the new owner, as I explained, seems to have issues, too.

It just seems that the landlady, whom I consider a friend, has such faith in the former owner (who l suspect is the one who put this topping idea in her head), that she is unwilling to hear anything else, no matter what the source. It reminds me of my of my sister, who would get angry when I warned her to get a COVID vaccine and wear a mask. She died of COVID last Christmas Eve, after signing herself out of the hospital, probably figuring she'd so everybody how inconsequential COVID is.

I guess all this shows that you can only try. And if people get angry, if they won't believe science, so be it.

I'm doing what I can, talking to our town conservation board about adding a topping ban to the town's tree ordinance, which currently is being rewritten. And I'll post a warning on our local Nextdoor message board. Maybe I'll write a story about how to choose a tree care company that won't recommend unnecessary work or even put your property and life at risk. I may even reinstate the negative review I gave my landlady's tree service (I removed it at the new owner's request.) No one at that company seems to be an accredited certified or consulting arborist. And it's not a member of the TCIA. If the landlady tops the towering spruce next to the house I'm renting, I won't feel safe living here.

Sorry to go for so long. Keep up the great work you're doing. From your website, I see you have an impressive background in this stuff (ISA Master Arborist, Tree Risk Assessment Qualified Arborist, SAF Certified Forester, and BBB A+ accredited, with zero complaints. Wow!) This wealthy area of New York and Connecticut could use your ethics and know-how!

Thank you again!

Anthony Giorgianni
 
Thanks for your kind words @TonyGTrees!

There are a lot of good tree companies. You just don't notice their work as readily because you drive by a property they just left and the things in the yard still look like trees! The bad ones stand out because topped trees look so out of place.

I've said this before too: don't call it butchering. That insults a whole profession. Butchers know what they are doing! Tree toppers generally don't.
 
I worked with large commercial chippers for many years, and hearing protection is a must. There is no reason not to use it. The employer must provide necessary protective equipment by law. Employees are not really required to use it, but I think if an OSHA inspector were to visit he would be doing some writing....Sorry to say but some people are just stupid.....and some employers take advantage of immigrants who have questionable status, and pay them a minimum wage without any training.
Thanks for the response. That's pretty much what I thought. I see this from OSHA's pamphlet on wood chippers:

"OSHA Standard 1910.95 (i) (l) requires hearing protection to be worn when sound levels exceed certain limits (generally, a daily average of 85 or 90 decibels, depending on the circumstances)."

I'm sure the sound level is above that. I hate that these workers are jeopardizing their hearing.

Regards,
Anthony Giorgianni
 
They definitely should be using hearing protection - they'll realise that one day. As a young man, I drove thousands of hours in tractors, same again with chainsaws, angle grinders, strimmers, hedgecutters, you name it, and never wore earmuffs. But back then, nobody told you to - so at least I had an excuse! They get warned today, but won't listen.

Got a young guy doing basic manual work for me occasionally here. I bought him a proper hard hat with earmuffs and told him always to wear it in appropriate situations, which include doing anything beneath trees. Beyond that, I figure it's up to him to make the choice. He's an adult and it's his head. I can't always be checking on him.

People are so cavalier about loud noise - until they get tinnitus and can't hear what people are saying to them. By then it's too late. Exactly what happened to me...
 
They definitely should be using hearing protection - they'll realise that one day. As a young man, I drove thousands of hours in tractors, same again with chainsaws, angle grinders, strimmers, hedgecutters, you name it, and never wore earmuffs. But back then, nobody told you to - so at least I had an excuse! They get warned today, but won't listen.

Got a young guy doing basic manual work for me occasionally here. I bought him a proper hard hat with earmuffs and told him always to wear it in appropriate situations, which include doing anything beneath trees. Beyond that, I figure it's up to him to make the choice. He's an adult and it's his head. I can't always be checking on him.

People are so cavalier about loud noise - until they get tinnitus and can't hear what people are saying to them. By then it's too late. Exactly what happened to me...
Thanks Dudders!

The company was back this week for the first mowing of the season. And I noticed that the two employee were using a riding mower and gas-powered leaf blower and weed trimmer, no hearing protection there either. I went out again with my ear muffs, pointing to the ear muffs and the workers' ears, trying to communicate with them. Given the language barrier, I'm not sure I got through.

I just spoke to a tree service employee from a different company that was working across the street. One of the workers told me that wearing ear protection, as well as chaps when using a chain saw, is mandatory at that company. Employees caught violating the rule can be fired.

Thanks again!
 
I guess the bottom line is that you can’t really force anyone to use hearing protection or follow good business practices. I have hearing loss and tinnitus, but the last time my hearing was checked, it came out as near perfect. I hate crowded areas like most bars and stuff because I spend more time going “huh?” than not. That gets old in a hurry. My dad has worse hearing than me and actually can’t hear a lot of sounds anymore. Because of that he’s been a huge advocate for protecting your hearing, which for the most part I’ve tried. Mistakes, however, have been made. The last straw was a few years back when I made the mistake of firing a .44 mag in front of an open barn door. That was absolutely the worst mistake I ever made. Pretty sure my eardrums met in the middle of my head, it hurt, a lot, and I pretty much completely lost hearing for about a week. Thankfully it came back enough that I haven’t noticed my hearing being any worse than it was, but I’m way more cautious about loud noises now. I had figured it was one shot out in the open just to try it, no worries, but didn’t count on the sound being magnified by the proximity of the barn. I’ll still do something like fire up a chainsaw after tuning it up or the like without hearing protection, but if it’s going to be running any length of time, I’ll put ear plugs in. It’s just not worth it.

Seems too like there’s a lot of poorly run businesses anymore. I’ve been collecting tree gear for awhile partly because I’ve had a long running interest in climbing and mostly because I don’t trust any of the local arborists. Haven’t found one yet that is honest and seems to know what they are doing. The last one to come through clearing along the power lines went through a lot of effort to assure us that they would do a nice job and failed miserably. I said that on my property, with the exception of a couple trees, take the rest to the ground. I don’t want them topped and I don’t want every branch cut back to the trunk all on one side. It looks like poo when that’s done and I’m trying to clean up the property. They said no problem, they would clear it and run a machine over the brush and stumps and leave it so I could mow it. Perfect. Or not. The machine never got ran, there’s stumps sticking up almost a foot, couple trees got topped, and a couple have been stripped back to the trunk (completely side walled) and it looks terrible. They also won’t answer or return calls. Granted, I didn’t exactly pay for it, but it was lies and a mess that I’m left with. A different tree company came through several years ago and did a worse job. A third company did the sewer line right of way and it was the same deal, lies and a mess. That’s three of the four biggest companies in this area. My parents tried calling some of the smaller companies around here to take care of a couple trees a few years back for their property and a couple tried just giving a quote over the phone and the couple that did come out were more interested in other trees or things on the property than talking about what they actually wanted down or trimmed. That leaves a bad taste. So now I have my own gear.
 

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