Covid Whistleblowers About Last Year's Fire Assignments

[Goinwheelin]

well, I've been on fire, a lot actually, but fire if it dont kill you just leaves fugly scars maybe some nerve damage in severe cases

Covid on the other hand, isn't like fire at all, you can't see it to avoid it, you don't feel it to flinch away, no smoke so you can't smell it and leave the room.

it just infects you... quietly, then maybe you get symptoms, maybe you don't, maybe you stay home until you feel better, maybe your an ******* and infect 100 other people because you don't believe in science, and masks make your breath stink.

Then if you do survive you are now at permanently reduced lung capacity, possible brain damage, maybe one of your kidneys failed and it had to be removed or worse you're on dialysis until you die, or you're on O2 for the rest of your life.

Another interesting statistic BTW the death rate of people on average is around 2% (1000x that of the flu) However, if you do not have access to medical help, i.e. health insurance the death rate is closer to 10%

What some of you are confusing because of incompetent politicians and heavily biased media, is the death rate of infected folks, and death rate of the entire nation regardless of being infected or not. Both numbers are true, so its not lying, its just not being honest.

I hear ya, but I would rather catch Covid than catch fire. Lol.
With that said, I am talking about wild land firefighters not the entire country. If you look at that demographic by age and health then compare it to the Covid data for that range you will find there are a hell of a lot more things they are more likely to die from than the Covid. That’s my point. If you are under 20 your chances of dying from Covid are statistically zero and the chance doesn’t start to really climb until you get into the 60+ range. The title of the article @slowp shared is misleading click bait. They try to make you think they got fired for whistleblowing but really they got canned because they went about it wrong. Do they have a legitimate gripe? Probably. Did they go about reporting it correctly? No.

 

[madhatte]

Could you post a link to an online version of that handbook? I'd like to read it.
I found these two docs., but I don't think they are what you mentioned
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd644053.pdf
https://www.nifc.gov/nicc/logistics/references/Wildland Fire Incident Management Field Guide.pdf
Maybe one of these?
https://www.fs.fed.us/im/directives/

The second one is it. First two pages are what you're after.

 

[slowp]

I wouldn't call it click bait. Covid, and how it would affect fire fighting was an issue from the get go. The safety first (except if it is too expensive or affects production) ethics of some supervisors is not a new issue. Those folks have always been around and will always be.

I reread the article. The AZ guy did try to go through channels but was ignored. Sounds like he might even have everything documented. The CA guy sounds like he might have tried, but perhaps not hard enough, and not in writing to try to get change to occur.

Read on down and there is a link to an item about trying to obtain the number of Covid cases on fire crews and numbers hospitalized and or dead. They've filed a FOIA request. It also sounds like senators are now involved. Priorities do a quick change when a request for info from a senator arrives.

From the way the FS works, I would expect an out of court settlement of some kind. That is cheaper than going to court and fighting.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

I wouldn't call it click bait. Covid, and how it would affect fire fighting was an issue from the get go. The safety first (except if it is too expensive or affects production) ethics of some supervisors is not a new issue. Those folks have always been around and will always be.

I reread the article. The AZ guy did try to go through channels but was ignored. Sounds like he might even have everything documented. The CA guy sounds like he might have tried, but perhaps not hard enough, and not in writing to try to get change to occur.

Read on down and there is a link to an item about trying to obtain the number of Covid cases on fire crews and numbers hospitalized and or dead. They've filed a FOIA request. It also sounds like senators are now involved. Priorities do a quick change when a request for info from a senator arrives.

From the way the FS works, I would expect an out of court settlement of some kind. That is cheaper than going to court and fighting.

View attachment 897351

Your "management" sounds a lot like mine. Do you guys have a union?

...and what is that in the picture and what are they doing??

 

[slowp]

Your "management" sounds a lot like mine. Do you guys have a union?

...and what is that in the picture and what are they doing??

I did not mean to insinuate that all supervisors are that way. There are more good than bad.

The photo shows a yarder, that has been "walked" on a paved forest road. Tires had to be thrown in front of the tracks and the crew is pulling out lines to rig up the yarder. That was a busy forest road and it was a challenge to log off of.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

The second one is it. First two pages are what you're after.

Well, that was enlightening.
Sounds like Mr. Gold was doing what he was trained to do, according to that handbook, with the exception being, the handbook relates to hazards related directly to firefighting, which seems to be universally agreed upon, and he attempted to apply them to the covid, which is pretty much a nebulous (and very political) topic.
I see a lot of similarities to your outfit and the USPS - handbooks, manuals, talks, articles, posters, etc everything and anything you could want to know about has been written in some form or fashion - the only trouble is they are all, for the most part, subject to interpretation and answers will vary based on who you ask. The postmaster in one office has one set of rules and another office has different rules. Sounds like you guys have the same issue.
The smart thing to do, is "when in Rome, do as the Romans do."

Here's the bottom line though:
“As a public servant you are held to a high standard and your actions are to be above reproach. Your misconduct is unbecoming of a federal employee and has reflected negatively on the Forest Service.”

 

[northmanlogging]

I wouldn't call it click bait. Covid, and how it would affect fire fighting was an issue from the get go. The safety first (except if it is too expensive or affects production) ethics of some supervisors is not a new issue. Those folks have always been around and will always be.

I reread the article. The AZ guy did try to go through channels but was ignored. Sounds like he might even have everything documented. The CA guy sounds like he might have tried, but perhaps not hard enough, and not in writing to try to get change to occur.

Read on down and there is a link to an item about trying to obtain the number of Covid cases on fire crews and numbers hospitalized and or dead. They've filed a FOIA request. It also sounds like senators are now involved. Priorities do a quick change when a request for info from a senator arrives.

From the way the FS works, I would expect an out of court settlement of some kind. That is cheaper than going to court and fighting.

View attachment 897351

This looks like a lot of long angry days. The amount of S that could go wrong on a job like this would have me up nights for months prior to starting, and then zero sleep while actually working.

 

[madhatte]

From the way the FS works, I would expect an out of court settlement of some kind. That is cheaper than going to court and fighting.

Gotta save that court money for timber sale litigation.

Your "management" sounds a lot like mine. Do you guys have a union?

We do, AFGE. Toothless. Mostly useful for making sure the next guy doesn't get a better deal. They have been a disappointment. We can do better but not with that particular union.

Well, that was enlightening.
Sounds like Mr. Gold was doing what he was trained to do, according to that handbook, with the exception being, the handbook relates to hazards related directly to firefighting, which seems to be universally agreed upon, and he attempted to apply them to the covid, which is pretty much a nebulous (and very political) topic.

As Slowp noted, we rolled into the season expecting challenges. Some of them were pretty easy -- spread out during morning briefings and AAR's etc -- and then stories like this one come up. Leadership was not well equipped to handle COVID concerns, and there was not consistent messaging from district to district, much less agency to agency. Hell, my agency was straight up declaring baselessly that we were an "island of safety" in an attempt to head off panic but had the opposite effect of making it very difficult to enforce precautionary rules.

This looks like a lot of long angry days.

I got two words for you: Gub Mint

 

[catbuster]

Never got a shot at a log truck ride. If they’re anything like my lowboy tractor, and I’d guess they come from factory similar as heavy spec tractors, the passenger seat isn’t comfortable and it probably rides terribly when unloaded. The life the truck lives after it leaves the dealer is largely up to the owner & operator. I can safely say I do not have Donettes in my trucks. That high lead job looks like fun. I’d do it just for kicks, it’s good to be challenged every once in a while.

Like I said, our fire crew spent most of last year away from the station except to check equipment and make calls. That’s the upshot of our organization as we’re locally based but have the quals to go work on almost any scale operation in the United States. Unfortunately not every agency has the same organizational structure and flexibility. Back in the day when I was a very young engineer I spent two years with a state agency and they’ve not been nearly as effective to respond to COVID as local agencies in this area.

Federal agencies have to do better. I see GS-3s starting out working the line and getting paid $11.49 an hour and wonder why I’d ever consider getting into it as a federal employee now. That’s less than an intern gets paid at KYTC to do “construction inspection.” It’s an embarrassment, but that’s another discussion for... Maybe some time.

 

[slowp]

When I started out, on a tree planting crew, I was happy. It was about the same effort as my previous work in orchards, and it paid more than minimum wage. I think it paid a whole seventy five cents more and then there were no pears to pick to make less than minimum wage. Our forestry program made a deal where we planted on weekends. We usually had a nice view, etc. That was "the foot in the door."

I didn't go on fires right away. The first season I was told, "We had to hire you. You won't be able to do the work and we won't have to hire women again after this year." Yup. I, and pretty much every other woman on a non office/non lookout job were affirmative action and the FS had been forced to hire us. The men went to fire training, we did not. Two years later, I went to fire school and started going on district fires and then off district a couple years later and so on. I kept on working in timber as my day job. Sometimes, even gubmint has to have a hard kick in the pants.

 

[northmanlogging]

When I started out, on a tree planting crew, I was happy. It was about the same effort as my previous work in orchards, and it paid more than minimum wage. I think it paid a whole seventy five cents more and then there were no pears to pick to make less than minimum wage. Our forestry program made a deal where we planted on weekends. We usually had a nice view, etc. That was "the foot in the door."

I didn't go on fires right away. The first season I was told, "We had to hire you. You won't be able to do the work and we won't have to hire women again after this year." Yup. I, and pretty much every other woman on a non office/non lookout job were affirmative action and the FS had been forced to hire us. The men went to fire training, we did not. Two years later, I went to fire school and started going on district fires and then off district a couple years later and so on. I kept on working in timber as my day job. Sometimes, even gubmint has to have a hard kick in the pants.

I gotta wonder if its reverse psychology, causing those hired by affirmative action to step it up a notch or 3, or is it making the employers have lower expectations? We may never know...

Either way, the hiring practices way back when were stupid.

 

[slowp]

I gotta wonder if its reverse psychology, causing those hired by affirmative action to step it up a notch or 3, or is it making the employers have lower expectations? We may never know...

Either way, the hiring practices way back when were stupid.

All I know is that it was equal to or less physical than orchard and farm work, and the pay was better, along with the hours.

Get this. It is 1995 and I'm at a timber cruising meeting. Overheard a guy say to another guy that women could not work in sale admin. because they don't talk or know about sports. Poor guy. Apparently he didn't realize that understanding contracts and logging system needs might could be a bit more important than How About Those Seahawks.

Was happy at a non FS trail volunteer session for chainsaws to see young women there, and also that some were fallers, and had learned from their dads who were production fallers. It's changed, but slowly, and still has a bit to go.

 

[TBS]

Rios went about it the wrong way by posting everyones work phone numbers and emails, he didn't follow protocol so they removed his automatic rehire option away which means he had to reapply and go through the hiring process again and having a strike against you the prior season gives them a reason to not rehire you.

Gold posted his concerns on facebook after not hearing anything from higher ups and requesting a meeting got what is known as a reprisal and supposed to be protected from that by federal whistleblower laws.


Now for my observation and experiences. The creek fire had I think 14 base camps at one point. Protocols were followed pretty well in the camps from what I saw and we had people from everywhere. Only a minimal numbers of cases with covid like symptoms and cases the usual camp crud that goes around where pretty low. Covid and camp crud have similar protocols that are easy to follow.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw0aVnZzVpZr214Ju12Doz18&cshid=1616865681620
https://www.nwcg.gov/coronavirus
I came home from a fire in 2005 with what ever crap started going through the camp in the 5th day of the incident and when I got home gave it to the rest of the family even though I wasn't sick and most of my crew got sick.

 

[northmanlogging]

All I know is that it was equal to or less physical than orchard and farm work, and the pay was better, along with the hours.

Get this. It is 1995 and I'm at a timber cruising meeting. Overheard a guy say to another guy that women could not work in sale admin. because they don't talk or know about sports. Poor guy. Apparently he didn't realize that understanding contracts and logging system needs might could be a bit more important than How About Those Seahawks.

Was happy at a non FS trail volunteer session for chainsaws to see young women there, and also that some were fallers, and had learned from their dads who were production fallers. It's changed, but slowly, and still has a bit to go.

I've mentioned it before, my mom taught me to run a saw, drive, weld, as well as cook and sew. she drove water truck, dump truck and long haul, pipe line welder and many other hats

dad wasnt a reliable option, until I was already in my teens, but dad (the only one that deserves the title) taught me how to wrench.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

When I started out, on a tree planting crew, I was happy. It was about the same effort as my previous work in orchards, and it paid more than minimum wage. I think it paid a whole seventy five cents more and then there were no pears to pick to make less than minimum wage. Our forestry program made a deal where we planted on weekends. We usually had a nice view, etc. That was "the foot in the door."

I didn't go on fires right away. The first season I was told, "We had to hire you. You won't be able to do the work and we won't have to hire women again after this year." Yup. I, and pretty much every other woman on a non office/non lookout job were affirmative action and the FS had been forced to hire us. The men went to fire training, we did not. Two years later, I went to fire school and started going on district fires and then off district a couple years later and so on. I kept on working in timber as my day job. Sometimes, even gubmint has to have a hard kick in the pants.

And they had the gall to actually tell you that. I would have busted ass even if it killed me, just to prove them wrong.

 

[lone wolf]

And they had the gall to actually tell you that. I would have busted ass even if it killed me, just to prove them wrong.

Woman make good helpers they tend to argue less and work more ,correct me if I'm wrong?

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Woman make good helpers they tend to argue less and work more ,correct me if I'm wrong?

Idk about that in the forestry industry.... I'll let the others comment on that one.
Generally speaking, there are too many variables to generalize.

 

[lone wolf]

Idk about that in the forestry industry.... I'll let the others comment on that one.
Generally speaking, there are too many variables to generalize.

That's been my experience.

 

[2dogs]

Gotta save that court money for timber sale litigation.

We do, AFGE. Toothless. Mostly useful for making sure the next guy doesn't get a better deal. They have been a disappointment. We can do better but not with that particular union.

As Slowp noted, we rolled into the season expecting challenges. Some of them were pretty easy -- spread out during morning briefings and AAR's etc -- and then stories like this one come up. Leadership was not well equipped to handle COVID concerns, and there was not consistent messaging from district to district, much less agency to agency. Hell, my agency was straight up declaring baselessly that we were an "island of safety" in an attempt to head off panic but had the opposite effect of making it very difficult to enforce precautionary rules.

I got two words for you: Gub Mint

Nate there is a pretty cool patch available with a Black Swan with 2020 added in the center. I think it is good representation of last year.

 

[madhatte]

I've been working my entire career in "male dominated" industries and OOHH NOOO there have always been women in the workplace and SHOCK they have always pulled their weight. This is only an issue to backwards idiots who want to keep women down.