Dangerous barber chair felling ash infected with emerald ash borer

[Fireman Bill]

First, I don't consider myself an "expert" qualified to really teach anything, just someone who has dealt with this unique situation and developed a plan that has worked for decades. Had some nasty surprises along the way as well....ended up doing this:

I've been felling ash like that for years and years Two things I do is first ignore the experts who have never done much of them and resort to test book answers designed for pine and healthy hardwoods. That will get u hurt. First I clean the root flares, I do a face cut 10-15 percent of the tree diameter, I bore cut from the face taking out at least 2/3rds of the hinge and take out as much of the heart as I can from the front but don't break thru to the sides or back just yet. REASON is too much hinge promotes the barber chair. So less is better but absolutely need ENOUGH to direct the tree.. It's a balance only experience can give. I then bore cut from the side (sides if its a larger than 30 inch tree ) in the "game of logging" style leaving just enough hinge to direct the tree and a little hold wood in the back so the tree doesn't go just yet. Using this "game of logging approach allows you to carefully and thoughtfully bore cut and "size" the hinges before releasing the tree, a critical point as yet again too much hinge promotes the barber chain and too little is dangerous. On the large "dead" sometime add a wedge during that process so the tree doesn't "crush" and pinch your saw. Step back...evaluate, make damn sure u have a clear escape route away from where things might come tumbling down from the dead branches above. Once the escape plan is internalized, release the tree and escape...fast.

I'll post a couple of videos that kind of show what I've been doing and one in particular shows why

First Here were some I did last weekend that were barber chairs wanting to happen:

Really good job man. Your patience keeps you safe.

 

[kenmbz]

Really good job man. Your patience keeps you safe.

I like the side cuts. I have been using similar face cuts and bore cuts with success.
I am amazed how many of these Ash snap 20-40 feet up while falling.
I have 3 more Large Ash, think I may let nature take them down as too many large branches.

Thanks for sharing the videos, shows a lot of good techniques in action.

 

[GrizG]

The neighbor's ash trees are still falling onto my family's property... Note the shed in the background of the one photo... one of their trees smashed that. Their insurance covered it as we had given them written notice of the hazards via certified mail. A tornado and microburst hit out area recently and this is what I found today when I went to check that property. For scale, the maple is about 34-36" dbh. The ash that hit it ash broke off about 12' above the ground. Note all the big dead ash on the neighbor's property... they refuse to do anything about it so I'll keep submitting claims to their insurance company for the damages until they are canceled. As a bank VP and bank lawyer couple they don't give a rat's ash about anyone but themselves!

 

[kenmbz]

The neighbor's ash trees are still falling onto my family's property... Note the shed in the background of the one photo... one of their trees smashed that. Their insurance covered it as we had given them written notice of the hazards via certified mail. A tornado and microburst hit out area recently and this is what I found today when I went to check that property. For scale, the maple is about 34-36" dbh. The ash that hit it ash broke off about 12' above the ground. Note all the big dead ash on the neighbor's property... they refuse to do anything about it so I'll keep submitting claims to their insurance company for the damages until they are canceled. As a bank VP and bank lawyer couple they don't give a rat's ash about anyone but themselves!

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This is pretty sad, earlier this year I took down 12 large Ash on my border as I did not want to impact my neighbors.
That they don't care is bad enough, but knowing their tress could hurt/damage you or your property is nuts for them not to just pay someone if they can't do the removal themselves.

 

[GrizG]

This is pretty sad, earlier this year I took down 12 large Ash on my border as I did not want to impact my neighbors.
That they don't care is bad enough, but knowing their tress could hurt/damage you or your property is nuts for them not to just pay someone if they can't do the removal themselves.

I took down about 50 ash on our property and our two neighbors next door probably took down as many. It's the "behind us" neighbor who is a problem. They've been a problem with projects in our area too demanding illegal quid pro quo arrangements that took years and millions of dollars in additional expenses to squash in court. Some people just s... I know a lot of people who pulled all their accounts out of that bank.

 

[newforest]

I live where EAB has been around for a long time as the origin point is less than 200 miles away.

A couple years ago now I had to work on a long dead Ash that was imminently possibly going to damage a shop building I was renting; my elderly landlord no longer had the initiative to do anything about it.

2 friends of mine, one a hand-cut logger for veneer grade material and the other a 2 decades experienced climber/arborist, neither of whom are afraid of some pretty hairy cuts high off the ground, refused to touch the tree without starting with a lift to take it apart from the top down. All 3 of us agree that the best solution with dead Ash is to a) leave them be if at all possible and let Nature do the job, or b) maybe carefully knock another tree into them to hopefully break all the unseen weak points and get it off true vertical as much as possible. Dang trees always tend to grow real straight.

Before we could get ground conditions (snow) and a lift and the free time organized, my landlord died and I could no longer rent the building anyway. The heirs decided to bring in Joe Bob’s Tree Service with a strong rope and a pick-up truck. It worked fine and Joe Bob went on to pull over more Ash trees elsewhere I guess. But none of the 3 of us would have volunteered for any amount of money to make that particular severing cut with all those random chance branches over our heads.

 

[sand sock]

your open face cut , was to shallow. i think they say it needs to be 25% now. it used to be 1/3. there is trees where you would even go just short of 50%. they want you to use wedges and stop lean backs. i get it and its a good practice and tool in your toolbox.

i think the problem was your relief cut was about a half inch to high. when it started to all, it ripped vertical. becasue you werent chasing the cut. as fast as it should of been. if the open face closes. you can barber chairs all day long. so many things could of happened

 

[weimedog]

My last big dead leaner ash tree job..

 

[woodfarmer]

If the OP is still experiencing barber chairs I hope he quit!

 

[Lightning Performance]

The neighbor's ash trees are still falling onto my family's property... Note the shed in the background of the one photo... one of their trees smashed that. Their insurance covered it as we had given them written notice of the hazards via certified mail. A tornado and microburst hit out area recently and this is what I found today when I went to check that property. For scale, the maple is about 34-36" dbh. The ash that hit it ash broke off about 12' above the ground. Note all the big dead ash on the neighbor's property... they refuse to do anything about it so I'll keep submitting claims to their insurance company for the damages until they are canceled. As a bank VP and bank lawyer couple they don't give a rat's ash about anyone but themselves!

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Have only read the first and last page here but will get back to reading the rest sometime soon.
Being in central NY last month was stunning to see dead and dying ash everywhere. You guys and gals up their definitely have got your work cut out on those hedge row leaners and broken tops still hung up there!

Did a bunch of dead or dying ash trees this past two years mostly in the spring but will be back at them soon enough. The ones on a farm sight semi cleared area were the worst. Several were so far gone they got pulled over with only a very tiny face notch of maybe 20% because they had no wood on the back cut side. If they were not where they were it was mostly lift work imho. Ain't no climbing these unless you have a death wish. Anything I had in front of me was intertwined and a mostly full dead canopies on ninety foot plus rotten and dry ash or hard maple. Had to line up a five tree drop because everything had to go in one pop, fun stuff to me and interesting. So a few big ones over 2.5ft wide almost chaired, one did, and no doubt they all would have being leaners and dead dry but I bore cut them from the face after my notch was in on all but one that I forgot to knock the guts out of first. Got the pics from that mess that went right instead of wrong. The ones leaning back being pulled over by rope were actually safer to get a rope loaded down to avoid the chair and things going off backwards. Some were leaning back into fences and need to go out into the open pasture grass. I'm sure this thread has plenty of vile dead standing leaners in it. Maybe I'll add few mistakes, or considered mistakes I made, to sweeten the deal here. Being a one man band 99% of the time makes for some interesting rigging bet on that. Rope, cable, lugalls, wedges, chokers, blocks, bore cuts and more is always in my self taught arsenal of how not to get injured or dead. Still liking this above ground thing or not being ash for as long as possible

 

[GrizG]

My last big dead leaner ash tree job..

The last time I saw an ash in that condition was 5+ years ago... it still had a bit of life in it! The standing ash around me now are too dangerous to cut. All the small branches have fallen off and the big ones and tops are still falling. The last one I cleaned up, a few months ago, broke off about 12-15' off the ground. It was 20+ inches in diameter at that height. There were actually 2 ash that fell that time from the neighbor's property onto my parents' property. The neighbor refuses to do anything about them... a couple years ago one smashed the shed and our insurance collected full damages from the neighbor as they'd been advised via certified letter that there were hazard trees. You can see dead and leaning ash in the background... all are in the 80-90 foot tall range. The neighbor is a lawyer (his wife is a bank VP) so I didn't simply go over and drop the trees as those people are constantly in legal battles. I return their trees to their property after I buck them... too far gone for firewood!

 

[weimedog]

I'm fortunate as I still have a 10-12 acre stand of bug free Ash. My forester keeps telling me to drop them NOW. I've been mixing them in with other trees. I got as much as $900 a thousand for the better tree's in the last lot. Other tree's where a lot less. Good Cherry down in the 650-700 range.

Where I was cutting down in Kentucky was as you described. Really too dangerous for the sane types. Too far gone for good firewood. Some where breaking mid tree and folding back. I'm an old fart. That gets my attention. I did video some of the "better" tree's as posting some of the crumbles isn't a good way to present anything but being stupid.

 

[anynameyouwish]

As promised, here are some measurements on the stump that allowed me to calculate the face cut angle, and the hinge width as a percentage of DBH.

The face cut target is 20° and the the hinge width target is 80%.

Without claiming that game of logging is always the correct way to take down a barber-chair prone recently-dead ash tree -- or hopefully without risking being called an ashgol -- I think it's fair to say that at least I cut close to the target and close to my intent.

Also included are two shots that show that if there was any lean it was minimal (look at the angle of the barber chair) and that the smaller trunk probably was not a factor in the felling of the larger trunk.

Curious to know if this stimulates any more thoughts.

Otherwise, this has been really fun and information and I thank you all.

Some thoughts on your pictures from someone who took the GOL levels 1-4 and has been doing this stuff for a year and half. I'm definitely not an expert but here goes..

- As others have said, your face notch seems a bit too shallow. Assuming a perfect circle, 80% of DBH translates to going 1/5th of the way in. For irregular trees, I tend to do 80% DBH OR 1/5th of the way in whichever is greater. No harm in going a bit further in than you need, especially because it changes the center of gravity (better for felling).

- I generally discount the bark in the calculations, and make sure that "1/5th of the way in" means 1/5th in from all parts of the front. In your 4th picture, if you move the tape to the right where there's a "dip" and leave out the bark, you're at around 2 inches, which is definitely less than 1/5th.

- For a 17" tree, 1/5th of the way in comes to 3.4 inches. So, putting this together with the previous point, your notch was IMO short around 1.4 inches.

- On discounting the bark: I pay special attention to this when deciding how much holding strap to leave. If you leave an inch and the bark is half inch deep you've effectively left only a half inch.

Again, not an expert; I've learned quite a lot from this thread!

 

[GrizG]

Some thoughts on your pictures from someone who took the GOL levels 1-4 and has been doing this stuff for a year and half. I'm definitely not an expert but here goes..

- As others have said, your face notch seems a bit too shallow. Assuming a perfect circle, 80% of DBH translates to going 1/5th of the way in. For irregular trees, I tend to do 80% DBH OR 1/5th of the way in whichever is greater. No harm in going a bit further in than you need, especially because it changes the center of gravity (better for felling).

- I generally discount the bark in the calculations, and make sure that "1/5th of the way in" means 1/5th in from all parts of the front. In your 4th picture, if you move the tape to the right where there's a "dip" and leave out the bark, you're at around 2 inches, which is definitely less than 1/5th.

- For a 17" tree, 1/5th of the way in comes to 3.4 inches. So, putting this together with the previous point, your notch was IMO short around 1.4 inches.

- On discounting the bark: I pay special attention to this when deciding how much holding strap to leave. If you leave an inch and the bark is half inch deep you've effectively left only a half inch.

Again, not an expert; I've learned quite a lot from this thread!

I suspect that that the root of the problem with that stump was the face cut was done at about 20° instead of 30°. Not sure where the 20° came from... cutting mistake, misunderstanding of the process?? At about 30° and 80% the other issues wouldn't have been issues. Not that GOL is a perfect solution. I've had hinges break right off on dead trees and they didn't fall where gunned. It happens!

 

[GrizG]

I'm fortunate as I still have a 10-12 acre stand of bug free Ash. My forester keeps telling me to drop them NOW. I've been mixing them in with other trees. I got as much as $900 a thousand for the better tree's in the last lot. Other tree's where a lot less. Good Cherry down in the 650-700 range.

Where I was cutting down in Kentucky was as you described. Really too dangerous for the sane types. Too far gone for good firewood. Some where breaking mid tree and folding back. I'm an old fart. That gets my attention. I did video some of the "better" tree's as posting some of the crumbles isn't a good way to present anything but being stupid.

I'm surprised you haven't had problems yet... I saw a video you did at the saw shop in Shokan. I live east of there and I don't think there is anything alive but the occasional stump growth! Thus far I haven't seen new saplings around me... I"m hoping EHD killing a lot of the deer helps the situation as they had decimated the woods.

 

[anynameyouwish]

I suspect that that the root of the problem with that stump was the face cut was done at about 20° instead of 30°. Not sure where the 20° came from... cutting mistake, misunderstanding of the process?? At about 30° and 80% the other issues wouldn't have been issues. Not that GOL is a perfect solution. I've had hinges break right off on dead trees and they didn't fall where gunned. It happens!

The GOL method says to cut the notch at 70-90 degrees. OP posted pictures on p. 5 of this thread where they said the notch was at around 70 degrees (or 20 degrees, depending on how you measure it). So at least as far as GOL goes they did it right. But as you say, it can happen no matter what you do. I'm going to avoid dead Ash from now on..

 

[GrizG]

The GOL method says to cut the notch at 70-90 degrees. OP posted pictures on p. 5 of this thread where they said the notch was at around 70 degrees (or 20 degrees, depending on how you measure it). So at least as far as GOL goes they did it right. But as you say, it can happen no matter what you do. I'm going to avoid dead Ash from now on..

Geez... my allergies are bad this morning and clearly messing with me! I looked at the drawing in the earlier post through runny blurry eyes and saw 18° and screwed it up from there! LOL Thanks for catching that... good thing I'm not trying to fell trees today! Rather I'm going to stick to raking up chestnut burrs and if the allergy meds work I'll mow the lawn today.

 

[anynameyouwish]

Geez... my allergies are bad this morning and clearly messing with me! I looked at the drawing in the earlier post through runny blurry eyes and saw 18° and screwed it up from there! LOL Thanks for catching that... good thing I'm not trying to fell trees today! Rather I'm going to stick to raking up chestnut burrs and if the allergy meds work I'll mow the lawn today.

LOL have fun!

 

[rwoods]

Nothing to be learned here about falling but thought some may enjoy seeing a couple of pictures of some ash I cut several months ago and am just now getting around to hauling to the wood lot.

Saturday, I pulled this log off a bank. It was too heavy for my wheel tractor to skid but just right for the little crawler.


Previous Saturday - ready to be strapped - first of several loads to head down the hill to the woodlot. Average round trip took close to 3 hours though only 15 miles or so.


Be safe,

Ron

 

[camel2019]

So have we decided what is the best plan of attack on these trees yet. I’m going to be talking a few dead ash on a open field edge for a buddy of mine sooner then later most are small. theirs 1 largish tree that has some lean to it and moves quite a bit in the wind. This will all be cut bucked and hand split so he can heat his house for the winter he broke his ankle and about the only assistance he can give me is from the truck.