I’ve cut hundreds of ash in the last few years and never had this happen. A little complacency maybe. I’ve never been a huge fan of bore cutting as never felt it was necessary and now I know why. You can see in the ash with the butt facing the picture the hinge is not cut through. The last one I did, i went higher on the back cut than maybe necessary but wasn’t going to have that happen again
Felling a Windblown Hung up tree
- Thread starter Tyler Vosters
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Let's get orientated here with some explanations. The tension is at 180° opposite the lean. The crack looks to be at 90° (which makes sense) that's the direction it is prone to splitting even if it didn't have a split
So by moving the undercut off the lean then the tension is where the top of hinge is now.
When cutting the tree the top of the hinge is now the high side. Opposite the direction of fall is the safe side. It is the only spot you should be working from. So with this there is no need for a triangle back cut or a bore cut.
You have a very high chance of getting the saw pinched in the bore cut or finishing out the cut.
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My concern is the condition of the roots behind the split? Looks like the tree is dead from looking at the lifting bark at the front
You get oxegen exchange from the open crack which invites rot I wouldn't work from the tension back side nor does it make working under the front a great option Don't even think about the pond side.
If you go 90° off the lean (as it looks to be what you pencilled in in your second illustration) you only have one safe side that you can work from with this unstable tree.
The whole tree will have to be cut with your tip so you want it to self feed. Set the undercut too far and you are doing a blind undercut through pinch points reaching in from the safe side unless you crawl under the front.
Also if you move the undercut too far to the side then you put to much tension on the top of hinge and sometimes tear out the back of the tree or you lose the natural swing and break the holding wood. Very well may happen anway with Ash. Probably as soon as it starts going it will rip off like a bandage to the lean direction. Which is fine.
You can do that as an option anyway once you cut the back cut then just thin the top some more and let it peel off with the lean.
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Undercut/Cut height?
Pros 'N' cons
A danger tree is usually at a comfortable waist height. Often you can get above the rot as well you are a smaller target standing erect and looking up,,also you are in the best position to exit
In this case there is nothing overhead unless the back roots pull out and go into a barber chair.
Another point concerning this tree is the compession is greatest at the bend. (Pinch concern)
-Fibires are also strongest at the bottom if rot is not present
Generally speaking, if you do get pinched or need to redirect the tree then you have room to do that without working too high.
- if you need to slice a tree off the stump then that is much safer lower to the ground.
Things for us all to consider.
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I would take a knee and get below the bend
Go at least greater than 45° to the pond side by reaching under. The more you can offset the U/C then the less you are taking out of the bottom (pinch point) 45 will mitigate the barber chair potential.
Slowly take the low side of the undercut out up to the split
Do the flat cut and hack out the angle cut as you inch in or inch in by alternating two saw kerfs wide. Just a chicken §hit little U/C is good enough. If it starts pinching instantly then chop the bottom in with an axe and clean it up with the saw
Now cut the top of the undercut in with the saw slowly. The lower part of the back split section may be compressed also. Take your time.
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Got the undercut in?
It's the hard part sometimes.
You can get pinched easy in the back cut if you get too excited The bottom of the tree and maybe the bottom of the split are your pinch points here
If it starts to lean outwards to the pond and then you will even get pinched above your undercut if you tip is sticking out . Don't over commit too far to the edge or the split or the bottom
Do it all with the tip by starting with the outer top closest to where you should be standing (safe side) Bring top section down close to the split go deeper and bring some more down.
Cut a bit of the outside split down with the tip if it seems good.
You are bringing the back cut in on an angle then bring the middle down then outside bottom should be ready to open up some.
You should clear out that snow and do a root inspection to see what you are dealing with.
You are going to take the small tree out in the water first and work under this tree???
I wouldn't suggest doing that.
I will also likely stop a barber chair if the back section roots poped out. The most dangerous barber chairs are when the tree is standing up a lot more.
If you and the tree are still standing then maybe we could modify that plan a bit.
Excellent explanation!
Thanks friends. I can write jokes at free will, I can 'talk off the cuff' in writing but the hardest thing I has ever had to write about in my entire life is This kinda stuff above^^^ it should be the easiest to me...no?
I should stick to improve
Much easier!
Well I think this post jinxed me. This ash had a crease in it but I needed to fall it in a certain direction. Face cut to the right of its lean 45* from the crease but apparently not enough. I heard it crack and got the heck out of there. Brought it down with another tree. Literally the first barberchair I have ever had with Ash. Probably should have bored this one.
Crease looks to be pretty rotted. Looks like you knew so as there are twp plunges into the crease
That tree was a good candidate for a few wraps of chain above your cuts
Ye, there was a nice maple and oak I didn’t want to hit so I didn’t want to send it 90* to the lean. See the ash in the background to the right, I used it to knock this one down.
Looks like you dutched it, and it stalled, at least partially contributing to the chair.
Ya stayed safe thats half the battle though.
I've said it before & I'll say it again , this fellow needs some instruction before he becomes a statistic, when you look back at the pictures he's posted, most of them have a Dutchman & the hinges cut completely away.
I very rarely bypass my face cut if that’s what your referring to. I nipe the ears on the sides which you can see by the triple hinge. I cut in a Hardwood bush where the canopy often causes trees to get hung up which is what happened here Northman. They just can’t build up much momentum. I’m trying to fell trees between what little space there is to preserve the younger maple and oak trees, not easy to do. None of these ash are straight, they often have a sweeping lean and can have another top lean. I use the triple hinge and a swing Dutchman and wedges often to try to get trees to drop where I want often 90 to 180* opposite the lean.
Bewildred, I do appreciate your concern. This is how I’ve always handled these ash, out of the hundreds I have cut have only had these couple bad ones in the last week or so. I had a strong feeling this barberchair might happen and took extra precaution. I run a fast saw right until the tree is on its way over. I take felling and my safety very seriously. I’ve been Cutting for 40 years, Ive been with pros and learned a lot. Some of the newer techniques I have tried have only come in the last couple years due to the information on sites and video, of course not all good at times.
in the pictures I posted in the other logging thread you can see hinge and a larger tree that was bore cut too.
Bewildred, I do appreciate your concern. This is how I’ve always handled these ash, out of the hundreds I have cut have only had these couple bad ones in the last week or so. I had a strong feeling this barberchair might happen and took extra precaution. I run a fast saw right until the tree is on its way over. I take felling and my safety very seriously. I’ve been Cutting for 40 years, Ive been with pros and learned a lot. Some of the newer techniques I have tried have only come in the last couple years due to the information on sites and video, of course not all good at times.
in the pictures I posted in the other logging thread you can see hinge and a larger tree that was bore cut too.
Dutching a chair prone tree into the hold wood, even a little bit, is a bad idea.
As for the triple hinge, I have my doubts as to its effectiveness, especially on a chair prone tree. You are essentially giving the chair a head start.
As for the triple hinge, I have my doubts as to its effectiveness, especially on a chair prone tree. You are essentially giving the chair a head start.
Ok, I reread my post. That was harsh. Sorry! Really. But the fact of the matter is that every cut I see is a fail if you were being tested to go to work professionally.
I think that's what the pros on this thread (several) are trying to tell you nicely.
I deleted my way too harsh post...
I think that's what the pros on this thread (several) are trying to tell you nicely.
I deleted my way too harsh post...
You shouldn't be using dangerous technique to over come tight falling spaces, if a tree is in the way you remove it first so you make space for it to land without getting hung up, you create more long term damage to the other trees by falling others into them , plus end up with hung up trees all over the place , which is the second most dangerous thing to have going on in a logging operation"
That's not what I meant.
@woodfarmer
Let’s look at a few aspects of falling trees from a thousand-foot perspective. It may not be popular, but I quite frankly don’t care if it keeps somebody from getting hurt or killed.
First off, opening up is one of the most important parts of your day. It’s harder in deciduous forests than evergreen forests, trust me, I’ve done both. If you can’t find a good direction for the tree you want to fall, you must make a space for it to go. Sometimes you’ll have to take a tree you planned on leaving. If you’re selectively cutting, well, you’ll explain it to whoever is in charge and move on.
Secondly, as some others have noted, leave your hinge alone. Do not nip the edges, cut a dutchman, triple hinge, blah blah. A lot of the things you’ll see on the internet are not strictly sound. I saw a video with Scott Wadsworth (The Essential Craftsman) taking down several oaks and he nipped the edges because the first few had chaired on him. Geez. I’ll listen to the guy discuss carpentry and concrete all day, but that scared me. People will listen, too, because the guy is who he is. A lot of the stuff on the internet is not well explained... At all. I’ll leave it at that.
Third... Deciduous trees are not Douglas Fir. They’re not even Madrone (Arbutus to you BC folk). They are much less forgiving to **** ups and the stuff you’ll see the left coast/inland northwest guys doing. Leave the triple hinge to trees with strong fibers and that are big enough to do it. Better yet, forget about it entirely. If you see a deciduous tree with any sort of defect, it’s in your best interest to just send it in the direction of the lean.
Let’s look at a few aspects of falling trees from a thousand-foot perspective. It may not be popular, but I quite frankly don’t care if it keeps somebody from getting hurt or killed.
First off, opening up is one of the most important parts of your day. It’s harder in deciduous forests than evergreen forests, trust me, I’ve done both. If you can’t find a good direction for the tree you want to fall, you must make a space for it to go. Sometimes you’ll have to take a tree you planned on leaving. If you’re selectively cutting, well, you’ll explain it to whoever is in charge and move on.
Secondly, as some others have noted, leave your hinge alone. Do not nip the edges, cut a dutchman, triple hinge, blah blah. A lot of the things you’ll see on the internet are not strictly sound. I saw a video with Scott Wadsworth (The Essential Craftsman) taking down several oaks and he nipped the edges because the first few had chaired on him. Geez. I’ll listen to the guy discuss carpentry and concrete all day, but that scared me. People will listen, too, because the guy is who he is. A lot of the stuff on the internet is not well explained... At all. I’ll leave it at that.
Third... Deciduous trees are not Douglas Fir. They’re not even Madrone (Arbutus to you BC folk). They are much less forgiving to **** ups and the stuff you’ll see the left coast/inland northwest guys doing. Leave the triple hinge to trees with strong fibers and that are big enough to do it. Better yet, forget about it entirely. If you see a deciduous tree with any sort of defect, it’s in your best interest to just send it in the direction of the lean.
to be fair, the triple hinge, does have a use, but its not in hard woods, its in sketchy brittle janky assed junk wood like cottonweeds and poplars, or maybe some of the softer pines. And that is only if your are asking more of it to turn and swing than is wise or warranted, never ever use it on a hard leaner, chair prone timber like alder or ash, or a tree that is already compromised.
Also I might add, the "triple" hinge is meant to compliment a siswheel or block face, it doesn't do **** on a normal slope/pie type face cut, and siswheel is really only used for swinging trees way passed the point of sanity or logic.
What I and others told the OP was to cut it sideways to the lean, and the crack that was obvious in the original picture, face it back it and send it, NO ONE mentioned any other fancy foot work, What the OP did was cut it nearly on plain with the crack, and weaken what ever wood was already there,.
As for nipping the "sap wood" i.e. cutting the sides of the hinge, it is taught in several books, usually by MFers that do not cut timber for a living, it does not prevent a chair as they claim, if anything it could contribute to a chair, the only thing nipping the sides is good for is to reduce fiber pull on spensive timber, and even then it doesn't do much.
I hear you guys load and clear, I will stop with the fancy s**t.
Now, where is the OP with his tree?
Now, where is the OP with his tree?
oh S, it looked so much the same lol, sorry for the mix up but yeah don't do that
Tyler Vosters
ArboristSite Lurker
Thanks for all the input again. Sorry I've been busy setting up my new sawmill! I have not done anything to the leaning ash yet. Waiting for a little snow on the ground and for the pond water to freeze. Won't be long and I'll be attempting to take it down. I will post when I do. I just want to do it as safely as possible so I appreciate the comments.
