Figuring log weight?

[pdqdl]

Just a quick question: You are looking at going down an ugly, gravel covered slope. If you try going down it in a very slow gear and subsequently break traction on your drivers, you will be obliged to either push the clutch or risk a jack-knife. There will be no way to keep your driveline helping out if gravity overcomes your traction.

Do you go into that slope "mostly brakes" with your tranny in what you hope is the correct exiting speed, or do you just push the clutch and max out the braking when your driver traction breaks loose, steering for your life?

 

[lwmibc]

The trailer can always hold itself as well as the tractor with its own brakes; you balance braking between trailer only with the hand valve, and the entire combination with brake pedal; the driveline is always providing braking to the ability of the engine braking, both compression ('Jake') and exhaust if equipped. Never in any circumstances would you release the clutch on a steep grade.

The simple answer is that you just don't start down any slope you don't know that you can handle, and any slope you determine how to handle it before you start down--remember you had to get up it empty to get the load. On those that seem questionable to your ability, you just start with a lighter load until you can feel your way in to what is safe, and direct the loader operator to load the way you want it in how much weight is on trailer axles vs tractor axles. All logging trucks have a scale under each log bunk with a digital readout in the cab; the driver calls the shots on how much weight goes where.

Because of the dangers there are regulations about grades on logging roads. Anything over 16% for a certain length, about 100 meters IIRC, requires special permission and inspection. The 30% grades I describe were short, just long enough to get off the landing.

That particular one had an added twist in that it immediately went into a 120º left turn onto the logging road, with a cliff on the outside of the turn; there was zero margin for error, and one had to squeeze the road edges both on the outside of the turn with steering tire and inside with trailer tires to get around it with the combination I was driving. The Fraser glaciation has left us with some ugly terrain to haul logs out of--but still I'm glad I was not the faller, he had to walk it all. Carrying a chainsaw.

At 30% it's small wonder that I remember it so well; having the video helps. But after I worked out the way to attack it I came out with full gross every time, which with the configuration I was driving was 49,100 kg, or 108,000 lbs.

Brakes btw are adjusted daily without exception, sometimes more than once. Efficiency of the entire mechanical linkage is at maximum only when at proper adjustment and you often want every little bit you can get. The air system that runs them, you just don't move if there's a flaw of any kind.

 

[lwmibc]

I should mention that the video is on an old computer, and in a large file that has to be sized down, plus I am not at home these days; working on a new property where we're building a log home for our last one. It may take me a while.

 

[Old-Feller]

I don't mind admitting when I'm wrong, If that really does measure 30% you have "Bawlz" The size of basketBAWLZ!!

And you're a good driver to BOOT!

 

[pdqdl]

The trailer can always hold itself as well as the tractor with its own brakes; you balance braking between trailer only with the hand valve, and the entire combination with brake pedal; the driveline is always providing braking to the ability of the engine braking, both compression ('Jake') and exhaust if equipped. Never in any circumstances would you release the clutch on a steep grade.

The simple answer is that you just don't start down any slope you don't know that you can handle, and any slope you determine how to handle it before you start down--remember you had to get up it empty to get the load. On those that seem questionable to your ability, you just start with a lighter load until you can feel your way in to what is safe, and direct the loader operator to load the way you want it in how much weight is on trailer axles vs tractor axles. All logging trucks have a scale under each log bunk with a digital readout in the cab; the driver calls the shots on how much weight goes where.

Because of the dangers there are regulations about grades on logging roads. Anything over 16% for a certain length, about 100 meters IIRC, requires special permission and inspection. The 30% grades I describe were short, just long enough to get off the landing.

That particular one had an added twist in that it immediately went into a 120º left turn onto the logging road, with a cliff on the outside of the turn; there was zero margin for error, and one had to squeeze the road edges both on the outside of the turn with steering tire and inside with trailer tires to get around it with the combination I was driving. The Fraser glaciation has left us with some ugly terrain to haul logs out of--but still I'm glad I was not the faller, he had to walk it all. Carrying a chainsaw.

At 30% it's small wonder that I remember it so well; having the video helps. But after I worked out the way to attack it I came out with full gross every time, which with the configuration I was driving was 49,100 kg, or 108,000 lbs.

Brakes btw are adjusted daily without exception, sometimes more than once. Efficiency of the entire mechanical linkage is at maximum only when at proper adjustment and you often want every little bit you can get. The air system that runs them, you just don't move if there's a flaw of any kind.

I think your conflict with some of the other guys would have been avoided if you had said "30% grades I describe were short" in the beginning.

I wasn't aware that the driver had control over the gross wt., nor that you had truck scales. I figured that they just loaded you up and told you to manage it. That makes a big difference. I never assumed they would have on-board scales on account of the rough terrain and the probability of the scales being broken or inaccurate all the time.

 

[lwmibc]

I accept the criticism, but in truth the consequences of an error on 30% with that kind of load is instant; how long it is is quickly irrelevant. You're right, but it is a lack of knowledge of what hauling logs professionally really is that is as much of someone calling BS on someone else's description of his experience.

The response of 'bawls' made me stop and think for a bit, is that correct? I would answer that it is not balls that is required, it is careful analysis, excellent maintenance (I did all my own, wouldn't let anyone else touch the truck) and attention to conditions; a build-up of experience. I wonder if balls might be why so many logging truck drivers are killed. Statistically it is one of the most dangerous jobs around, but I can't say I ever had a close call. Maybe 'Think', not boldly go where most fear to tread, is the best way to handle the job?

The scales are mostly used for getting maximum load without being overweight, and they are electrically a PITA, you're seemingly always fixing them. They are a strain-gauge device with electronics measuring change in resistance of an element buried in steel bars, very low currents have to be measured. You'd be amazed how far into frame and air lines you have to bury sensitive wires to prevent a loader operator from finding them with a stick and busting them off. And even I'm amazed at how good you get at assessing a load by eye when the scales aren't working...because it happens so often.

I even figured out that instead of setting the scales at zero when empty, I could set them at 'minus' the weight that I could carry on each bunk. Then while loading I never had to do any arithmetic in calculating how much room I had left; I just read it off the display as it counted down to zero. 'Ask a lazy guy how to do something efficiently'.

(If you get chicken and are always carrying light loads you'll soon be doing other work somewhere else, of course. Truck and driver have to earn their keep.)

BTW, I started hauling logs with a '72 Kenworth with a 12V71 Detroit; extendable jeep frame and a 2-axle pole trailer. Company president said 'If you can drive that thing, you can drive anything'. My hearing supports that I did it, despite wearing noise-cancelling headphones in it whenever I could.

We often encountered pole logs in TFL42, they are handled specially due to the value. Longest one I hauled was 108'. That requires a pilot car of course, and magnifies just how absent of logic some people in cars can be.

 

[Old-Feller]

You definitely sound like you know what you are talking about, As I driver I never encountered that type of grade even as a heavy hauler. As a Mechanic I did not like detroits much, I worked for Caterpillar in the Engine shop for a number of years. Mostly over the road trucks and mining equipment. Like I said, I will admit when I am wrong and I believe you, My apologies.

 

[Old-Feller]

Did you have a 6 and a 4 behind that 12V71 or a 5 and 4?

 

[lwmibc]

Did you have a 6 and a 4 behind that 12V71 or a 5 and 4?

Neither; 13 speed road-ranger.

When I retired I was driving a Western Star with an 18 speed and Detroit 60. Of the common modern (at the time) 3 engines I have to say I liked the Detroit 60 the most, even if it did inexplicably make 2-piece pistons into 3-piece ones--at 1600 rpm. Twice; Detroit just shrugged.

I can't really say why, it just seemed to pull the best for my driving style. I ran it between 1300 and 1600 rpm.

The 12V71 had amazing low-end torque for a 2-stroke; I did the low-bedding for the company too using that truck, heaviest piece was 95,000 lbs, an old yarder built on a tank chassis. It was always a surprise when it idled up a steep switchback dragging the empty low bed trying to keep the drivers from breaking traction; having only driven a 6-71 Detroit before then I was used to one becoming a Briggs at 1200.

We later got a Madill swing yarder on rubber, but called you heavy-haulers to move that one when off forestry roads; that needed way more axles than we had. It motored itself down to pavement where it got picked up.

BTW, one of the snakiest things to drive down a steep grade on a logging road is an empty tandem gravel truck, the drive axles will start to hop in a heartbeat and they're all you've got for traction. I did that once; demanded that something of a load be put in it every time after. (We also bid on and built logging roads when winning a contract.)

That's why I thought twice about 'bawls'; being scared sh!tless (full?) a time or two may be a better teacher. At least you can wash it out afterwards while you go over what went wrong. If I have any special quality that led to living to retirement it was recognizing right when something going wrong was just starting, and reacting fast-as-the-sphincter in stopping it from developing any further. That morphed into having the constant thought in mind of 'what could possibly go wrong in the next second or two and what am I going to do about it if it does'. That's why I reacted to the OP the way I did, my apologies if it came out too strong--but he had no idea what could go wrong if he didn't even know what his load was nor have any idea of how to handle it when something did go wrong; I hope he can learn from this.

The constant awareness of what-can-go-wrong worked. It still works, I also fly and its just as important there.

 

[pdqdl]

Well that's all fun reading. Really!

The OP seemed to think that we were busting his bawlz with all our comments about braking and my comments regarding his overheat issues. As the currently uncontested leader of this thread in trucking experience for mountains, steep hills, and overheating engines, what say you on that specific topic?

BTW: A bit strong; I think the OP just quit listening to the critics. I thought you were kinda funny.
https://www.arboristsite.com/threads/figuring-log-weight.360737/post-7756799

 

[Old-Feller]

I knew you would have been running an 18 speed in your later days, But I assumed the deep under in the Brownies would have benefited you in the old days on those steep pulls/ I had a 1978 Pete 359 with a 3406-A with a 6 and 4, A 16 tire cozad and a jeep for it when needed.

Did you need to be pulled up those steep grades by a loader when empty? We would lock the diffs and put the truck in 8th gear on a 13 speed and lug up steep dirt roads, But the real steep ones we had to be pulled in by a loader, This was going into mines out in the desert.

The brownie in that truck was a twin counter-shaft spicer. That was early 90's when I was doing that work.

 

[lwmibc]

First the reply to pdqdl; I typed it when I came in for lunch but forgot to send.

Never, ever, had an overheated engine; there was a poster who was dead right when he said to back off the throttle--but that probably wouldn't have helped anyway if OP was grossly overloaded. As I said there are gauges for that with sensors in engine, transmission, and all differentials in a logging truck; it's the driver's responsibility to keep them all in the green. His too in his pickup.

You copied and pasted the correct part of his post; 4 trips with warnings on all of them that something was not right and he still didn't know how heavy his load was for the fifth and did it again. To also be honest, this was in my mind when typing my first response--



My interpretation is that what he was doing was a highly irresponsible act and a serious danger to both himself and others. I don't want to read of him being killed because I stayed silent with my hands and experience in my pockets, much less taking out somebody completely innocent of his follies. He needs to take this much more seriously. You know, sort of like that kid in South Park coming out of the confessional.

 

[lwmibc]

The company already had the '72 Kenworth when I joined them, it came ordered with the 13 speed. It had Detroit lockers in both diffs; sometimes a good thing, sometimes bad. It worked well when the axles were lightly loaded, but with a very heavy load yes I had to be towed around climbing corners occasionally; wouldn't turn.

Getting towed up steep grades was standard fare in logging, but almost always because of some special situation like the trailer was down because I had been doing some work on it; couldn't afford to always have someone running down to tow the logging truck up. An empty logging truck does quite well with the trailer loaded on the back.

Western Star had all 3 standard locks; both diffs and the power divider.

The Kenworth was sold about 2008 when it was replaced by a fairly new Volvo; I helped transfer the logging rigging, thought I'd die drilling frame holes with a magnetic drill. Had it all done by 2 pm, starting at 6. An interesting job.

And the Kenworth went down to the mid-western states somewhere, a company that supplies movie props bought it. It was a classic; maroon, long-nose and original.

I did drive the Volvo occasionally (it was the President's truck), and although it had a superior cab for driver comfort I never really felt I could 'make it work' like the WS. Sort of like a bona fide old Land Rover vs a cushy Range Rover.

BTW, in my younger days my best time for chaining up 4 sets of triples was 13 minutes, parking brake on to parking brake off. 'It's all in the way they're hung on the racks.' No drag chains that time though; it was on a crane truck--when also working in mining, but in the mountains of BC, not a desert.

 

[pdqdl]

First the reply to pdqdl; I typed it when I came in for lunch but forgot to send.

Never, ever, had an overheated engine; there was a poster who was dead right when he said to back off the throttle..

That was me. The OP went on to tell me I fell flat on my face with those instructions, and pretty much dissed the rest of the advice he had been given.

 

[Campbellcontractlogging]

Logging trucks don't start their loaded trips on highways; they start at landings at the ends of logging roads up in mountains where the trees are. I can understand your scoffing at my claim if your total driving experience is on highways, but I can actually furnish you with a video of the landing as my brother was along for a ride to that cut block; I wouldn't allow him in the cab when I came out of the landing. I was concerned enough to know what I had to contend with that I had put a long 2X4 on the ground before the first load and measured the slope with an inclinometer; it slightly exceeded 30%.

He filmed me coming out from where I picked him up once off the landing; I have the video.

Any of you who want to call BS--I'll take you up on a bet. The landing and the logging road coming out of it is still there, it's on the north side of Red Mountain above the Mission and District Gun Range northwest of Mission, BC. If it measures 30%, you pay; if less, I pay. Any takers? This is indeed a money-where-your-mouth-is opportunity.

I have definitely seen some steep gradients that our trucks run in the ozark mountain range it is absolutely true that ware I live is nothing compared to Washington orgon and BC for that matter and he’s right about ware the trucks start on landings and I’ve seen skidders multiple times hafto push or winch trucks up hills shts crazy to see the stuff log truck drivers run on.

 

[northmanlogging]

just got done with a job that started on a 30% grade... d5 dozer got us to flat ground, then it was jakes on to the pavement and hope you make the switch back...


good times

 

[northmanlogging]

I accept the criticism, but in truth the consequences of an error on 30% with that kind of load is instant; how long it is is quickly irrelevant. You're right, but it is a lack of knowledge of what hauling logs professionally really is that is as much of someone calling BS on someone else's description of his experience.

The response of 'bawls' made me stop and think for a bit, is that correct? I would answer that it is not balls that is required, it is careful analysis, excellent maintenance (I did all my own, wouldn't let anyone else touch the truck) and attention to conditions; a build-up of experience. I wonder if balls might be why so many logging truck drivers are killed. Statistically it is one of the most dangerous jobs around, but I can't say I ever had a close call. Maybe 'Think', not boldly go where most fear to tread, is the best way to handle the job?

The scales are mostly used for getting maximum load without being overweight, and they are electrically a PITA, you're seemingly always fixing them. They are a strain-gauge device with electronics measuring change in resistance of an element buried in steel bars, very low currents have to be measured. You'd be amazed how far into frame and air lines you have to bury sensitive wires to prevent a loader operator from finding them with a stick and busting them off. And even I'm amazed at how good you get at assessing a load by eye when the scales aren't working...because it happens so often.

I even figured out that instead of setting the scales at zero when empty, I could set them at 'minus' the weight that I could carry on each bunk. Then while loading I never had to do any arithmetic in calculating how much room I had left; I just read it off the display as it counted down to zero. 'Ask a lazy guy how to do something efficiently'.

(If you get chicken and are always carrying light loads you'll soon be doing other work somewhere else, of course. Truck and driver have to earn their keep.)

BTW, I started hauling logs with a '72 Kenworth with a 12V71 Detroit; extendable jeep frame and a 2-axle pole trailer. Company president said 'If you can drive that thing, you can drive anything'. My hearing supports that I did it, despite wearing noise-cancelling headphones in it whenever I could.

We often encountered pole logs in TFL42, they are handled specially due to the value. Longest one I hauled was 108'. That requires a pilot car of course, and magnifies just how absent of logic some people in cars can be.

So its not just my scales that are a PITA lol... ironically the most exposed are my trailer scales, and I rarely have a problem them them, the truck scales have been a thorn in my ass since I bought the truck
luckily, most times I can load the trailer up to weight with short logs shoved to the trailer and the truck is generally pretty good... if you squint...
Being a self loader its a banner day to get a full load anyway as most of the gyppos around here can't seem to figure out how to cut 2 more trees down in a week...

 

[Campbellcontractlogging]

So its not just my scales that are a PITA lol... ironically the most exposed are my trailer scales, and I rarely have a problem them them, the truck scales have been a thorn in my ass since I bought the truck
luckily, most times I can load the trailer up to weight with short logs shoved to the trailer and the truck is generally pretty good... if you squint...
Being a self loader its a banner day to get a full load anyway as most of the gyppos around here can't seem to figure out how to cut 2 more trees down in a week...

Damn that sucks me and my crew cut 3 full 92 thousand pound loads a day it’s hard to find someone that will haul it.

 

[northmanlogging]

Damn that sucks me and my crew cut 3 full 92 thousand pound loads a day it’s hard to find someone that will haul it.

meh, I haul a lot for tree services, so some of the times thats just all the wood they have.
there are plenty of other crews that have acres to cut, and can only manage a load or 2 every week, with 3-5 people working their asses off in the attempt too...
By rights should be 1 load per person per day, some of these chuckleheads are lucky to get that in a week.
I'll note most of these folks rarely last more then a few weeks, then disappear.

 

[Campbellcontractlogging]

meh, I haul a lot for tree services, so some of the times thats just all the wood they have.
there are plenty of other crews that have acres to cut, and can only manage a load or 2 every week, with 3-5 people working their asses off in the attempt too...
By rights should be 1 load per person per day, some of these chuckleheads are lucky to get that in a week.
I'll note most of these folks rarely last more then a few weeks, then disappear.

I cut and trim 1.5-2 loads a day my partner dose 1-1.5 so your right I don’t understand what some folks doing in the woods same stuff happens around here.