Fuels: pump gas vs alkylate vs aviation.

[Aviacs]

Aviacs, you state: "there is no such thing as lead-free avgas".
Then what is G100UL, or UL94 ?

Good for you!

I've seen a few reports, G100UL was only announced this summer.
But to most of us, it is mythical stuff.

It does appear there is some availability for UL94 in California.
I'd be happy to see it spread everywhere - Swift's website shows graphics of how bad leaded is for most of our engines, not to mention the rest of us healthwise.

Here's another point - It's not yet clear that most of us can legally just call up the fuel truck and request UL. The FAA appears to be issuing the STC's (paperwork) on a type-by-type airframe and engine basis. It could be a few years before everyone is in. (To be clear, no one really checks what you put in your tanks. But it can be an insurance factor for even a minor accident, or an added issue for an enforcement action for some other cause) As mentioned my first post, we who run 93 unleaded mogas have to buy an STC saying we can if we want to. The STC cost/license fee pays whoever did all the testing and jumped through all the hoops to prove to the FAA that whatever is safe in every imaginable scenario.

That said, i fail to see how it will benefit chainsaws over unleaded mogas.
As a flying club, we will probably continue to seek out 93 unleaded mogas based on price comparison, and it is what i will run im my airplane unless the av-specific fuel is cheaper. Thanks for bringing it to my attention that the option may soon be available in some places that decide to put in another set of pumps. At some point, no doubt, leaded will be phased out, and none too soon. The "meantime" however, for most of us, will probably be a few years or more.

smt

 

[bwalker]

I remember when I could drive my 68 Camaro onto the airport and get 100LL, no more after 9/11. That was an 11:1 motor that had been decked and heads surfaced.

You can still do so in Montana.

 

[Aviacs]

There's a lot of small airports, that if they still have fuel pumps, you probably can.
Most are getting fenced in (Feds, due to 9/11; not state) but its like any niche community.
Call up and ask. It might depend how far the pumps are from a gate for their convenience and insurance. Some will be jerks about it & probably laugh for emphasis, some will say "How much do you plan to buy, " "let us know when you want to be here". Some might even like your car. Serious gearheads all tend to gravitate.

I still don't see an advantage for leaded 100 octane avgas, over the unleaded mogas available at auto fuel plazas for 100 octane or more.
Well maybe the avgas is cheaper at that point (100+) but i tend to just buy the 93 for chainsaws.....and sometimes airplanes.

smt

 

[bwalker]

There's a lot of small airports, that if they still have fuel pumps, you probably can.
Most are getting fenced in (Feds, due to 9/11; not state) but its like any niche community.
Call up and ask. It might depend how far the pumps are from a gate for their convenience and insurance. Some will be jerks about it & probably laugh for emphasis, some will say "How much do you plan to buy, " "let us know when you want to be here". Some might even like your car. Serious gearheads all tend to gravitate.

I still don't see an advantage for leaded 100 octane avgas, over the unleaded mogas available at auto fuel plazas for 100 octane or more.
Well maybe the avgas is cheaper at that point (100+) but i tend to just buy the 93 for chainsaws.....and sometimes airplanes.

smt

During the daytime the gates are wide open. You can drive your truck right out onto the tarmac and fill up.

 

[RockMHershey]

If you can buy non-ethanol pump gas then I say count your blessings. All the pump gas in central KY have 10% ethanol. Well there is one holdout gas station in Lexington (Dixon's Service) that is reported to still sell real gasoline.

If you can buy non-ethanol pump gas then I say count your blessings. All the pump gas in central KY have 10% ethanol. Well there is one holdout gas station in Lexington (Dixon's Service) that is reported to still sell real gasoline.

I checked with our ASPEN-US rep and you can mix the Amsoil 2 cycle with the ASPEN 4 without any issues. SAFE let me know if I can be of assistance in guiding you to an ASPEN dealer, most likely where you purchase your equipment.

 

[Aviacs]

During the daytime the gates are wide open. You can drive your truck right out onto the tarmac and fill up.

My point was, this option might exist more places than people think. Usually small airports/non metro areas.
However, if you are intimidated, simply call and ask. Some won't bother to be "inconvenienced". Some will see it as community outreach.
AFA pumping fuel into whatever, it really boils down to the FBO ("Fixed Base Operator = "the entity that sells fuel and services airplanes on the airport") and their personal interest in selling gas as well as participating in the wider non-av community. Or the level of inconvenience depending where they or the county chose to site their fuel farm.

Since most of us that fly are small tradesmen - electricians, upholsterers, teachers, lots of farmers, a few loggers, carpenters, machinists, mechanics, masons, truck drivers, nurses, engineers, a few doctors and maybe a dentist, small town store owners, etc, & live in the sticks or small towns, we'd like to see airports more open to the community. Keeps people from getting mad at us supposedly "rich guys" and our "expensive toys" (cheaper than big boats in many cases; usually much cheaper than RV campers) & trying to close the airports down. The other side of the coin is that for most public use airports, the feds provide free grants to keep them open, often millions of $$$ over every 12 yr plan counting lights, guidance systems, and paving. So they do come with some rules about things like fencing, mowing, snow clearance, non-storage of non-av vehicles, drone free areas, etc.

And still, all that said, and hoping you come out to the airport and get a big welcome, i see absolutely no advantage to leaded avgas in any vehicle or saw over high test unleaded, EtOH free, mogas. If the G100UL comes to an airport near you, it surely won't hurt your saw or car, but at that point it's down to price between it and non-EtOH mogas at local pumps.

smt

 

[bwalker]

My point was, this option might exist more places than people think. Usually small airports/non metro areas.
However, if you are intimidated, simply call and ask. Some won't bother to be "inconvenienced". Some will see it as community outreach.
AFA pumping fuel into whatever, it really boils down to the FBO ("Fixed Base Operator = "the entity that sells fuel and services airplanes on the airport") and their personal interest in selling gas as well as participating in the wider non-av community. Or the level of inconvenience depending where they or the county chose to site their fuel farm.

Since most of us that fly are small tradesmen - electricians, upholsterers, teachers, lots of farmers, a few loggers, carpenters, machinists, mechanics, masons, truck drivers, nurses, engineers, a few doctors and maybe a dentist, small town store owners, etc, & live in the sticks or small towns, we'd like to see airports more open to the community. Keeps people from getting mad at us supposedly "rich guys" and our "expensive toys" (cheaper than big boats in many cases; usually much cheaper than RV campers) & trying to close the airports down. The other side of the coin is that for most public use airports, the feds provide free grants to keep them open, often millions of $$$ over every 12 yr plan counting lights, guidance systems, and paving. So they do come with some rules about things like fencing, mowing, snow clearance, non-storage of non-av vehicles, drone free areas, etc.

And still, all that said, and hoping you come out to the airport and get a big welcome, i see absolutely no advantage to leaded avgas in any vehicle or saw over high test unleaded, EtOH free, mogas. If the G100UL comes to an airport near you, it surely won't hurt your saw or car, but at that point it's down to price between it and non-EtOH mogas at local pumps.

smt

When I have filled up with AV gas at the airport there has been no one there. Gates open drive on in and get it done.
Now, In Montana you can drive around with a loaded and uncased rifle on the dash of your truck so we haven't gave up as much of our freedoms as most states. Not long ago there was no speed limit and you could drink and drive legally until the Feds put a stop to that.

 

[Husky77]

Would be really bad to confuse jet fuel with avgas. "Jet fuels" are kerosene, some highly refined.

at last

 

[OM617YOTA]

I collect camp stoves, kerosene lamps, and lanterns. Jet-A is a good source of high quality kero, although higher in sulfur than I would prefer.

 

[sgbotsford]

Some people confuse jet fuel with avgas. From what I understand, avgas is made of a composition more suited to engines that use spark plugs, and contains mostly alkylate.


.

Jet fuel is basically kerosene. There is an additive that decreases it's tendency to form a mist and turn into a fireball. It might work in a warm diesel engine. I think any gas engine would get unhappy. Diluted with regular gas, I would expect it to smoke and fowl the plugs.

 

[OM617YOTA]

Have burned plenty of Jet A in my Yota. A gasser wouldn't be happy at all, but no issue with a diesel.

 

[Aviacs]

When I have filled up with AV gas at the airport there has been no one there. Gates open drive on in and get it done.
Now, In Montana you can drive around with a loaded and uncased rifle on the dash of your truck so we haven't gave up as much of our freedoms as most states. Not long ago there was no speed limit and you could drink and drive legally until the Feds put a stop to that.

There were still a few stations like that around NY and PA right up until recently.
I can think of 2, but don't want to say in case it has changed. Drive in, use CC.
My awareness if more from fueling an airplane, though.

AFA firearms, i grew up in MD and no one thought anything about it.
During hunting season, lots of kids had long guns in their lockers, with ammo. Either coming in from a morning out, or getting a head start on the remaining daylight at the end of the day. There were occasional pistols, but mostly people kept it sensible. There was a certain pride about being responsible in that area, if not in others.

Oh, yeah, about those chainsaws....


smt

 

[sgbotsford]

There were still a few stations like that around NY and PA right up until recently.
I can think of 2, but don't want to say in case it has changed. Drive in, use CC.
My awareness if more from fueling an airplane, though.

AFA firearms, i grew up in MD and no one thought anything about it.
During hunting season, lots of kids had long guns in their lockers, with ammo. Either coming in from a morning out, or getting a head start on the remaining daylight at the end of the day. There were occasional pistols, but mostly people kept it sensible. There was a certain pride about being responsible in that area, if not in others.

Oh, yeah, about those chainsaws....


smt

This is the way it should be. I have 4 teens who work on my tree farm. 3 hunt. Two with bows.

In Canada you can carry an unloaded long arm in your vehicle -- unloaded.

I'm starting into this. I have a .22 with scope and a Lee Enfield .303 from WWII. Some deer that have been eating my birch may have regrets.

***

Flip side: Some cases of a troubled teen who have killed a bunch of their classmates and teachers.

Where is the balance? My not very humble opinion:

* Canada requires a full day course before you can buy a gun or ammo. Another course for hunting.
* Getting a handgun here is a LOT harder.
* US makes it too easy for both.
* But Canada doesn't permit handguns in situations where one is clearly an advantage. E.g. backpacker in bear country.

I'd like to see a balance where to get a permit to get/use any firearm you have to demonstrate that you can use if safely/

 

[bwalker]

This is the way it should be. I have 4 teens who work on my tree farm. 3 hunt. Two with bows.

In Canada you can carry an unloaded long arm in your vehicle -- unloaded.

I'm starting into this. I have a .22 with scope and a Lee Enfield .303 from WWII. Some deer that have been eating my birch may have regrets.

***

Flip side: Some cases of a troubled teen who have killed a bunch of their classmates and teachers.

Where is the balance? My not very humble opinion:

* Canada requires a full day course before you can buy a gun or ammo. Another course for hunting.
* Getting a handgun here is a LOT harder.
* US makes it too easy for both.
* But Canada doesn't permit handguns in situations where one is clearly an advantage. E.g. backpacker in bear country.

I'd like to see a balance where to get a permit to get/use any firearm you have to demonstrate that you can use if safely/

I'll go along with you ideas if you explain how any of that non sense will impact mass shootings.

 

[Mad Professor]

This is the way it should be. I have 4 teens who work on my tree farm. 3 hunt. Two with bows.

In Canada you can carry an unloaded long arm in your vehicle -- unloaded.

I'm starting into this. I have a .22 with scope and a Lee Enfield .303 from WWII. Some deer that have been eating my birch may have regrets.

***

Flip side: Some cases of a troubled teen who have killed a bunch of their classmates and teachers.

Where is the balance? My not very humble opinion:

* Canada requires a full day course before you can buy a gun or ammo. Another course for hunting.
* Getting a handgun here is a LOT harder.
* US makes it too easy for both.
* But Canada doesn't permit handguns in situations where one is clearly an advantage. E.g. backpacker in bear country.

I'd like to see a balance where to get a permit to get/use any firearm you have to demonstrate that you can use if safely/

There were still a few stations like that around NY and PA right up until recently.
I can think of 2, but don't want to say in case it has changed. Drive in, use CC.
My awareness if more from fueling an airplane, though.

AFA firearms, i grew up in MD and no one thought anything about it.
During hunting season, lots of kids had long guns in their lockers, with ammo. Either coming in from a morning out, or getting a head start on the remaining daylight at the end of the day. There were occasional pistols, but mostly people kept it sensible. There was a certain pride about being responsible in that area, if not in others.

Oh, yeah, about those chainsaws....


smt

We used to bring our guns to school too. Hunt on the way their and the way home. Principal never got shot.

Also used to have rifle racks in the pickup trucks for those and shotguns. Some dumbass states want you to have them locked up in the trunk now, or locked in a hard case.

We have a Constitution, it should be Constitutional carry in all 50, unless you are a certified (by courts/medical staff not just "red flagged") nut case.

 

[Aviacs]

A few notes on the fuel questions:
I checked on Av forums, and there does not seem to be any "procedural" prohibition about pumping Avgas into "whatever".
As i surmised upthread, it is pretty much the FBO choice or policy. Not state or fed regs.

However, and it is a big one: Avgas & Jet A is just like "offroad diesel" - no road taxes paid.
So an FBO or theoretically the customer, could run afoul of all the fuel taxing agencies.
Some local police jurisdiction hears about it, and they could cause a lot of paperwork and potentially fines.
Also, these days, this stuff is all over the net. (sources, prices)
Bwalker and some of the Avfuel options around here are more or less working on a don't know, don't ask, don't tell with drive-up CC purchases.
But there comes a point where they probably say "hey, lets cut out that risk".

AFA Jet A in piston vehicles - seems to be a regular Q on some Av forums.
This one is not just about road taxes, (which scenario also applies.)
Jet A is ultra clean, with some other attributes re: gel point, etc.
However, since it is intended for turbine apps, it does not have the lube package that piston vehicles run best on.
Consensus is that it is a poor option to run in a piston diesel, at least don't run it straight. (Thielart, and the very few other Av-diesel piston engines were designed from clean sheet paper, to run on Jet A without the lube additive package, and may have othe lube provisions included or specified)

AFA the OP - "many" FBO's would probably pump into your container (not vehicle) "for the airplane or ultralight you have tied down at your farm field" However, all things considered, there really is no technical advantage over non-ethanol, unleaded 93+ octane Mogas from the local road fuel plaza or jobber outlet.

smt

 

[OM617YOTA]

My local airport told me that they're not allowed to run any of their vehicles on Jet A due to the tax issue. Never mind that they're only used on the airport property, which is private property, maintained and paid for by the airport and not out of road taxes, and the vehicles aren't registered or tagged for use on public roads.

 

[Mad Professor]

A few notes on the fuel questions:
I checked on Av forums, and there does not seem to be any "procedural" prohibition about pumping Avgas into "whatever".
As i surmised upthread, it is pretty much the FBO choice or policy. Not state or fed regs.

However, and it is a big one: Avgas & Jet A is just like "offroad diesel" - no road taxes paid.
So an FBO or theoretically the customer, could run afoul of all the fuel taxing agencies.
Some local police jurisdiction hears about it, and they could cause a lot of paperwork and potentially fines.
Also, these days, this stuff is all over the net. (sources, prices)
Bwalker and some of the Avfuel options around here are more or less working on a don't know, don't ask, don't tell with drive-up CC purchases.
But there comes a point where they probably say "hey, lets cut out that risk".

AFA Jet A in piston vehicles - seems to be a regular Q on some Av forums.
This one is not just about road taxes, (which scenario also applies.)
Jet A is ultra clean, with some other attributes re: gel point, etc.
However, since it is intended for turbine apps, it does not have the lube package that piston vehicles run best on.
Consensus is that it is a poor option to run in a piston diesel, at least don't run it straight. (Thielart, and the very few other Av-diesel piston engines were designed from clean sheet paper, to run on Jet A without the lube additive package, and may have othe lube provisions included or specified)

AFA the OP - "many" FBO's would probably pump into your container (not vehicle) "for the airplane or ultralight you have tied down at your farm field" However, all things considered, there really is no technical advantage over non-ethanol, unleaded 93+ octane Mogas from the local road fuel plaza or jobber outlet.

smt

There is an advantage in storage life with 100LL over non-E10. I'll agree you don't need/want the lead, or need 100 octane.

Concerning JetA. I'm not sure why a diesel needs a "lube package" in the fuel. P/C and valves are lubricated by crankcase oil. Unless Jet A somehow rinses the oil off? That said, the military approves use of Jet A in it's piston vehicles.

I'm hitting the airport this week as FJB prices have not got there yet. It's ~ 80 cents more than non-E10 91

 

[OM617YOTA]

Many older diesels have the fuel system lubed by fuel. Modern diesels probably don't care about fuel lubricity, but older ones DEFINITELY do.

 

[aokpops]

Felling like getting some bad notifications. Just buy a battery saw. To be honest I never had any fuel issues in years. I run V'Power from shell in all 2 strokes just started a Husqvarna 298 that set for about 5 years. Anyone that let a 298 set for long knows the battle. Never drained the fuel just used what was in the tank. Got a 272 thinking it has not been started in 10 years. I bought the 372 in 2013 in that time I never got the 272 off the shelf.