Getting my 25 acre wood lot timbered this winter

[xraydaniel]

I have a timber sale coming up with a selective cut on my plot and a 2-3 acre clear cut. Due to such a wet season it’s happening this winter. I have 10% wetlands in there that are not being touched but some of the fingers running to it do have some seasonal wet areas. It’s about 75 percent hardwood with an Oak/Beech component. A smathering of red maple, black cherry, yellow birch, and smaller amounts of poplar. The softwoods comprise the other 25 percent with ewp, hemlock, and like one or 2 spruces lol. Beeches are mostly all dying with beechbark disease.

Red oaks and Ewp dominate on the highlands and are of excellent quality with about 1k-2k trees per acre if I remember correctly. I have the management plan somewhere around. Current successional forest is about 80yrs old. Last timbering was done around 40’s-50’s maybe around the storm events in this area.

Any thoughts from you guys on recent cuts you’ve seen or done and what mills in the NE Usa are paying for stumpage? I hear they’re hungry for timber. What’s the sentiment like at this stage for timber jobs on smaller wood lots? Would it be better to wait another 1-2 years for another jump in inflation?

Just a few recent pics of a lowland cart path cuz everyone loves pictures. This doesn’t represent the highland stand. There are quite a number of quad oak stump sprouts with 24-30” logs a piece up there. The gift that keeps on giving.

 

[northmanlogging]

the term "timbered" is a new one to me...

Anyway, I'm not an east coast guy, nor do I claim to know much about it, however, skookum is that hardwood prices are down all over, and have been for some time, I don't see them coming up much if at all.

That said, best time to harvest is generally dictated by the trees themselves, markets be damned, especially with hardwoods as they have a limited life span even when healthy. If your beeches are already diseased, its time for them to go while there is still useable wood in them, wait too long and they are completely valueless.

As for finding a local mill, google is your friend, or search for logging/land clearing companies, but get a bunch of quotes if possible, and just cause a guy can be there next week, doesn't necessarily mean he's the best choice, the good loggers will be in demand, they may not be the best bid, but they will likely do a better job and in the end get you more money.

Beware any that offer to buy the timber outright, if you can go with someone that will pay you or better have the mill pay you a percentage or x amount per volume, even if that initial outright payment seems like a lot of money... its probably not what its worth.

 

[Jackbnimble]

I have a timber sale coming up with a selective cut on my plot and a 2-3 acre clear cut. Due to such a wet season it’s happening this winter. I have 10% wetlands in there that are not being touched but some of the fingers running to it do have some seasonal wet areas. It’s about 75 percent hardwood with an Oak/Beech component. A smathering of red maple, black cherry, yellow birch, and smaller amounts of poplar. The softwoods comprise the other 25 percent with ewp, hemlock, and like one or 2 spruces lol. Beeches are mostly all dying with beechbark disease.

Red oaks and Ewp dominate on the highlands and are of excellent quality with about 1k-2k trees per acre if I remember correctly. I have the management plan somewhere around. Current successional forest is about 80yrs old. Last timbering was done around 40’s-50’s maybe around the storm events in this area.

Any thoughts from you guys on recent cuts you’ve seen or done and what mills in the NE Usa are paying for stumpage? I hear they’re hungry for timber. What’s the sentiment like at this stage for timber jobs on smaller wood lots? Would it be better to wait another 1-2 years for another jump in inflation?

Just a few recent pics of a lowland cart path cuz everyone loves pictures. This doesn’t represent the highland stand. There are quite a number of quad oak stump sprouts with 24-30” logs a piece up there. The gift that keeps on giving.

View attachment 938033View attachment 938034View attachment 938035View attachment 938036View attachment 938037

Nice stuff, man. And luvin it.

 

[xraydaniel]

the term "timbered" is a new one to me...

Anyway, I'm not an east coast guy, nor do I claim to know much about it, however, skookum is that hardwood prices are down all over, and have been for some time, I don't see them coming up much if at all.

That said, best time to harvest is generally dictated by the trees themselves, markets be damned, especially with hardwoods as they have a limited life span even when healthy. If your beeches are already diseased, its time for them to go while there is still useable wood in them, wait too long and they are completely valueless.

As for finding a local mill, google is your friend, or search for logging/land clearing companies, but get a bunch of quotes if possible, and just cause a guy can be there next week, doesn't necessarily mean he's the best choice, the good loggers will be in demand, they may not be the best bid, but they will likely do a better job and in the end get you more money.

Beware any that offer to buy the timber outright, if you can go with someone that will pay you or better have the mill pay you a percentage or x amount per volume, even if that initial outright payment seems like a lot of money... its probably not what its worth.

Thanks for the reply. “Timbered” just means a wood lot that’s cut: clear or selective. It could be made up by me! This will probably be a mill tally and I have the option to choose a bulk bid or just simply go with my forester’s choice whom I trust. I’m only asking for the roads to be combed. The plan is to take the low quality timber this time. This company does do that and I like a combed road for future entertainment. Slash can be left on site. I like to forage mushrooms and slash creates great opportunity for that. I’m looking for maximum revinue. We have two options here. Either mill tally or bulk bid. Timber goes to the mill while tallied and check gets cut on actual tally. Whole lot job can be bid for a price but I don’t really trust that way and I don’t want the low bidder nor a guesstimate on stand value. I feel it’s always best to establish a relationship since in another 10 years I will be “timbering” the stand that’s left with an expanded canopy, thickened trunks, and growing money. According to my forester mills are hungry. China was the biggest consumer of NE hardwoods. Look at what the commies are doing now though. Growth is stagnating. Xi is consolidating power. They are barely able to buy enough coal, lng, and oil on the open market to sustain the factory output. It’s not looking good so maybe a year down the road we may face a decreased demand for NE hardwoods. The Ewp here is very nice but a pain in the ass to get an engineer to certify it all for a build.

 

[xraydaniel]

the term "timbered" is a new one to me...

Anyway, I'm not an east coast guy, nor do I claim to know much about it, however, skookum is that hardwood prices are down all over, and have been for some time, I don't see them coming up much if at all.

That said, best time to harvest is generally dictated by the trees themselves, markets be damned, especially with hardwoods as they have a limited life span even when healthy. If your beeches are already diseased, its time for them to go while there is still useable wood in them, wait too long and they are completely valueless.

As for finding a local mill, google is your friend, or search for logging/land clearing companies, but get a bunch of quotes if possible, and just cause a guy can be there next week, doesn't necessarily mean he's the best choice, the good loggers will be in demand, they may not be the best bid, but they will likely do a better job and in the end get you more money.

Beware any that offer to buy the timber outright, if you can go with someone that will pay you or better have the mill pay you a percentage or x amount per volume, even if that initial outright payment seems like a lot of money... its probably not what its worth.

I also want to add that I agree in the sensitivity of hardwoods here. We are one crisis away from devastating the mast tree species. What I have left for beech can be culled. There are some well endowed beeches there but the bulk of that species is only good for slash and spray. They may be better left for snags so birds can thrive or I can also collect lion’s mane from them. I do care a lot about habitat and forestry products as I am a hunter gatherer type

 

[northmanlogging]

Thanks for the reply. “Timbered” just means a wood lot that’s cut: clear or selective. It could be made up by me! This will probably be a mill tally and I have the option to choose a bulk bid or just simply go with my forester’s choice whom I trust. I’m only asking for the roads to be combed. The plan is to take the low quality timber this time. This company does do that and I like a combed road for future entertainment. Slash can be left on site. I like to forage mushrooms and slash creates great opportunity for that. I’m looking for maximum revinue. We have two options here. Either mill tally or bulk bid. Timber goes to the mill while tallied and check gets cut on actual tally. Whole lot job can be bid for a price but I don’t really trust that way and I don’t want the low bidder nor a guesstimate on stand value. I feel it’s always best to establish a relationship since in another 10 years I will be “timbering” the stand that’s left with an expanded canopy, thickened trunks, and growing money. According to my forester mills are hungry. China was the biggest consumer of NE hardwoods. Look at what the commies are doing now though. Growth is stagnating. Xi is consolidating power. They are barely able to buy enough coal, lng, and oil on the open market to sustain the factory output. It’s not looking good so maybe a year down the road we may face a decreased demand for NE hardwoods. The Ewp here is very nice but a pain in the ass to get an engineer to certify it all for a build.

Mill tally, would be the best way to procede, bulk sales are sketchy at best.

A good forestry plan is worth the money invested, and worth a "poor" harvest if it leads to a good harvest later. Much of that will depend on the logger doing the work too.

 

[northmanlogging]

As for China market, at least out here on the wet coast, several mills closed after the trade war in Aug. of 2018, China just stopped buying from us, turned several ships away and refused to pay for them. The market has come back some, but at least 1 of those mills is never going to reopen. Damage done.

 

[xraydaniel]

Very sad to hear.

 

[fruitcakesa]

Since I do my own forest management, ie: I do the cutting, skidding and selling to mills, I am not current on stumpage pricing.
I can say that softwood prices in my area are up and straight through pricing is high with competing mills almost bidding against each other. According to the log buyer for the mill that is getting my timber, stocks of pine sawlogs are currently very low thus the good pricing.

 

[Brufab]

If only popple was worth much I have so much of that on hand. Trouble is can't stockpile any because it rots so fast and it doesn't burn that good compared to everything else I can harvest.

 

[Brufab]

I also noticed in response to the beech in the op that the Hampton bay unfinished cabinets at home depot are beech now. When I refinished my kitchen in my primary home it was red oak. I bought some cabinets for my vacation home and they are now beech..... interesting to say the least

 

[Lee192233]

My grandmother in-law had her 10 acre woodlot "selective cut" about 5 years ago. Maple, oak and beech. My take away is don't let a "forester" from the mill set up the sale and select the trees. They high graded it and took all the big trees and left small trees. Any big trees that are left are crooked or are hollow.
When I was scrounging some firewood there were 3 large cherry trees that were taken that weren't even on the cut list.
Best to have an independent or state forester set up the sale.
Good luck with the sale.

 

[Jhenderson]

I recommend an independent forester( not a mill forester) to mark the job and run the sale. Be sure to include payment for needless damage to leave trees ( 3 times the value and leave the tree) and go look at the job the winning bidder is doing now to see if you want them on your property. The money will be long gone while you look at your woods and wish someone else did the job if you’ re not careful.

 

[Brufab]

The guy I had come through and look spent alot of time looking and explaining everything to me. I learned something new. I have alot of pignut hickory. They would tag every tree they were going to take and write up the bid/contract. I had the option of keeping any tree I wanted. Most of the oak is kinda goofy alot grow crooked because they are on high banks along a river and fighting for sun. And alot of maples are under water for half the year. He was pointing out why to take this tree and not that tree. Primary goal was to make some $ for trees that were not ever going to burn for firewood and improve overall health of the stand and for wildlife management.

 

[xraydaniel]

All great points gents. My forester is an independent one and we’ve walked it a few times with in depth discussions. The goal is in great detail in the management plan. Take away the low quality, leave the white oaks, leave the thermal cover of hemlocks, leave the high quality for a future accretive selective cut, clear cut a small area, and comb the logging roads after it’s finished. Walk the lot after the job is done to confirm a proper job was performed. I will be pretty aggressive with making sure my forester does a proper job of follow up and oversight. He gets 10% more of the sale. I am a pretty knowledgeable jack of all trades. I can tell when a tree needs to be taken vs one that is damaged and will not be worthy of the future, as well as which ones needs to grow for another 10-30 years.

Two options I retain and that is a bid or go with my forester’s choice company whom he works with often. It’s a tough call because on one hand you have to put your full faith in your forester to be independent and unbiased and on the other hand a bid process may gain more money but the company which picks up the job may perform at a rate of diminishing returns. It ain’t easy when your not connected intrinsically to the industry.

 

[Brufab]

The guy said alot of maple goes to the cabinet making industry??? I was surprised the red/white oak wasn't in high demand.

 

[xraydaniel]

The guy said alot of maple goes to the cabinet making industry??? I was surprised the red/white oak wasn't in high demand.

Apparently oak is more 80’s 90’s style while lighter colored hardwoods like beech and maple are more popular now.

 

[northmanlogging]

The guy said alot of maple goes to the cabinet making industry??? I was surprised the red/white oak wasn't in high demand.

maple, beech, and Alder (PNW weed) are easily stained to be whatever wood you want them to be, annnd they all grow like weeds so they are relatively cheap compared to stuff like Cherry, or Walnut.

 

[northmanlogging]

All great points gents. My forester is an independent one and we’ve walked it a few times with in depth discussions. The goal is in great detail in the management plan. Take away the low quality, leave the white oaks, leave the thermal cover of hemlocks, leave the high quality for a future accretive selective cut, clear cut a small area, and comb the logging roads after it’s finished. Walk the lot after the job is done to confirm a proper job was performed. I will be pretty aggressive with making sure my forester does a proper job of follow up and oversight. He gets 10% more of the sale. I am a pretty knowledgeable jack of all trades. I can tell when a tree needs to be taken vs one that is damaged and will not be worthy of the future, as well as which ones needs to grow for another 10-30 years.

Two options I retain and that is a bid or go with my forester’s choice company whom he works with often. It’s a tough call because on one hand you have to put your full faith in your forester to be independent and unbiased and on the other hand a bid process may gain more money but the company which picks up the job may perform at a rate of diminishing returns. It ain’t easy when your not connected intrinsically to the industry.

If your Forester is getting 10% of the sale, and you intend to do mill tally, then taking their suggestions on who should log it has considerably more weight, if the logger they suggest is going to get the most profit, everyone benefits

 

[xraydaniel]

If your Forester is getting 10% of the sale, and you intend to do mill tally, then taking their suggestions on who should log it has considerably more weight, if the logger they suggest is going to get the most profit, everyone benefits

Thank you for the confident reply northmanlogging.