Hi all, I’m a newb here, looking for help with an old homemade splitter my dad built probably 40 years ago. Been sitting for maybe 15 years. He built it from scrounged cylinder and valve that came from some kind of heavy industrial machinery. It had an ancient Koehler motor, I think maybe 8hp, and 1056 pump. I couldn’t get the engine running and happened to have a 5.5 Honda sitting around so I swapped it out. I know that is likely part of my problem, but the symptoms seem to point elsewhere. When the ram hits the log, it doesn’t stall, but it doesn’t go to second stage. It just drops some speed and keeps running. From what I’ve read that sounds like a cylinder sealing issue. But before I tear into the cylinder I wanted to rule other issues out if possible. I don’t have pressure gauges but thought there might be some general checks I could do. One thing I thought I’d look at is the valve bypass setting. But this valve is a mystery. Can anyone identify this thing? Only ID I can find on it is 311678, searched online not finding anything. Is the adjuster under the big plug on the side? Any clues are appreciated, also general suggestions for troubleshooting. Thanks.
Help with splitter problems
- Thread starter Soundside
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What do you mean by "drops some speed and keeps running"
Is the ram still moving or no?
Is the ram still moving or no?
When the ram encounters the log it stops. But there is “some” pressure. It pushes the wood hard enough that the wedge enters maybe 1/4”. The engine is definitely feeling a load, and slows a little in response to the load. But it’s like it’s “slipping”. And it doesn’t downshift to the second stage.
I’m second guessing everything now. Among other things….
I noticed some whining from the pump, but been so long since I’ve run it I can’t recall if it had any noticeable whine before. I put a new suction hose on it because I could see the old one collapsing and thought the pump might be cavitating. That seems to have helped a little with the whining. Also drained fluid and added new hydraulic oil. Now second guessing that - there was ATF in the machine, a little stayed behind. Is it okay to have that mixed with the new hyd oil?
I did try adjusting the pump regulating pressure . No change from adjusting in or out a turn or so. I’m also wondering if those old hoses might have gone bad and closed up inside.
I don’t want to play the replacement game if I can narrow things down a little. I have a feeling the only way to do that might be with a gauge.
Soundside Welcome to the forum. First thing you need to do is install a pressure gauge between the pump and control valve to see if you are making any pressure. Could be lot of things from bad pump to relief valve on the control valve not working properly to seals leaking in the cylinder.
Pump comes to mind to me.
Thanks rancher2. I kind of knew that was the answer, but I've been hoping against hope I could do some diagnostics without it. Do you have suggestions on source for gauges?
Also, looking for insights into some of the other implicit issues, and odd things I've noticed. Here's some of my "dumb" questions.
- is it okay to mix fluid types (ATF and aw32)?
- should the pump be totally silent, or is there some inherent whine?
- is the combination of the 5.5 hp engine and the 1056 pump just a non-starter, or can they be configured to work together okay? The spec sheet I've seen says you need 8hp for that one.
- what is a good oil volume to have in the reservoir? I'm wondering if more fluid will help ensure better stability. Are there rules of thumb?
- Questions about this valve - this valve has no detents. My dad engineered this thing with a really clever arrangement of control linkages, to create a "neutral detent" (and auto-reverse, etc.) by use of these linkages, but I've disconnected all the linkages from the valve in order to do the diagnostics. What I've noticed is that there is virtually no "neutral" space in the throw of the valve. In listening to the sound of the engine/pump as you move the valve through its range, it goes immediately from forward to reverse, and even at the spot where it's not moving the ram, it seems to be placing some "load" on the pump (like it's slightly engaged). Is this "normal" in any sense? Does it point to a known issue in the valve? Is this valve familiar looking to anyone?
I suppose I need to attack one issue at a time, and the first thing is to look at the pressure. But looking for wisdom on some of the other stuff.
Thanks!
Might want to install a Hyd gauge on that permanently . Then you will save time trouble shooting if need arises. IDK on your machine what it should read exactly but I think 2000- 3000 would be a good guess. Dead head the piston for a couple seconds and see how much it goes to when mine wore out the reading was 1500 and should be 3000 PSI. I examined all the parts involved and found the cause to be the Lovejoy coupler was set up with no end play and put pressure on the pump shaft and it wore out real fast . Make sure you have a lot of slack in the coupler so it isn't pressing on the pump after a new pump is put on.
Soundside Its hard to say what piece of equipment that valve came off of. Surplus Center in Lincoln Nebraska is a good place to get all you hyd needs. I myself don't like to mix oils. When I work on a splitter it doesn't leave my shop without a gauge Tee in between the pump and valve. You will have to decide what your budget is. You can get a bunch of money tied up pretty quick. But on the other side a lot of homebuilt splitters will out split your basic box store, farm store splitter. Its tough to trouble shoot a piece of equipment over the internet when don't have any gauge set up.
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The 1056 pump is rated 16 gallons per minute on low pressure and roughly 4 gpm on high pressure. The Honda GX160 has 5.5 advertised hp (4.8 hp actual) and is too small for 16/4 gpm pump. If pump, pressure relief valve in control valve and cylinder were working correctly the engine would stall when wedge encountered hard to split wood. You could lower relief valve pressure and lower second stage pressure setting on pump to prevent stalling but maximum splitting force will suffer. ATF and AW32 hydraulic oil mix should not be a factor with your issues. Pump is gear pump and will not be silent.
A method to test internal cylinder seals is to dead head cylinder in forward direction and stop engine. Remove hose from side of cylinder not under pressure. Start engine at idle and dead head in same direction (CAUTION - stand clear of high pressure oil). If you see a stream of oil from the port not under pressure, your cylinder piston seals have failed.
A way to narrow down your issue is to block oil flow to cylinder (both ports), start engine at idle and see if this stalls engine when control lever is engaged or if oil bypasses back to tank via the relief valve. If engine stalled, back off relief valve pressure and test again.
A method to test internal cylinder seals is to dead head cylinder in forward direction and stop engine. Remove hose from side of cylinder not under pressure. Start engine at idle and dead head in same direction (CAUTION - stand clear of high pressure oil). If you see a stream of oil from the port not under pressure, your cylinder piston seals have failed.
A way to narrow down your issue is to block oil flow to cylinder (both ports), start engine at idle and see if this stalls engine when control lever is engaged or if oil bypasses back to tank via the relief valve. If engine stalled, back off relief valve pressure and test again.
Thanks everyone for the responses. For some reason I did not get emails when you responded, but I’ll check my settings. Anyway, I’ve learned a little bit more about this machine. The valve is a Vickers, and by looking up the patent number, it appears to be 1940s design. It apparently does not have a bypass valve. I have read that in this case I should install one externally, but that might get into so much expense that it be easier to put a new control valve on it.
The pump is definitely not going in to high pressure mode. As one of you said, the engine is really not up to the job, but it seems like the pump should still downshift. I have adjusted the pump several times and still can’t get it to go into high pressure low flow mode. Is that because the control valve doesn’t have a bypass?
Strangely enough, it is now splitting wood again. I’m not sure what I did to get it to get over the hump. It’s not by any means perfect, but it seems like it’s running about like it used to, with a little less power of course because of a smaller engine. The weird thing is That the suction line to the pump is collapsing. I changed that suction hose to a more stiff type with the nylon braid, but it still collapses. It does this even when running unloaded.
I finally got a gauge and all of the pieces I need to install it. I’ll be putting it on there tomorrow. But with the valve that does not have any adjustment, I’m not sure what I can do other than just tweak the pump for some pressure that seems like it’s OK.
By the way, it stalls dead when I extend the ram all the way out. Maybe that’s kind of normal, because it’s at maximum pressure? Also, when the ram is returning back in, it puts a lot of stress on the engine. It sometimes kills the engine just because of the load during the return stroke (it moves very fast during the return stroke.).
Lastly, I’m probably asking for way too much of this thing. I’m trying to split logs in excess of 24 inches across. Even when it was running its best 30 years ago, it was really struggling with big lumber like that.
Thanks again.
The pump is definitely not going in to high pressure mode. As one of you said, the engine is really not up to the job, but it seems like the pump should still downshift. I have adjusted the pump several times and still can’t get it to go into high pressure low flow mode. Is that because the control valve doesn’t have a bypass?
Strangely enough, it is now splitting wood again. I’m not sure what I did to get it to get over the hump. It’s not by any means perfect, but it seems like it’s running about like it used to, with a little less power of course because of a smaller engine. The weird thing is That the suction line to the pump is collapsing. I changed that suction hose to a more stiff type with the nylon braid, but it still collapses. It does this even when running unloaded.
I finally got a gauge and all of the pieces I need to install it. I’ll be putting it on there tomorrow. But with the valve that does not have any adjustment, I’m not sure what I can do other than just tweak the pump for some pressure that seems like it’s OK.
By the way, it stalls dead when I extend the ram all the way out. Maybe that’s kind of normal, because it’s at maximum pressure? Also, when the ram is returning back in, it puts a lot of stress on the engine. It sometimes kills the engine just because of the load during the return stroke (it moves very fast during the return stroke.).
Lastly, I’m probably asking for way too much of this thing. I’m trying to split logs in excess of 24 inches across. Even when it was running its best 30 years ago, it was really struggling with big lumber like that.
Thanks again.
Craigmn, how do I tell which hose is not under pressure?
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Since the engine is stalling out there is no need to further test cylinder.
With the cylinder working okay, you are two components away from having a splitter working like it did 30 years ago.
First component needed is a control valve with a relief valve. See example below from Surplus Center eBay listing for a valve for $59.95 plus shipping. Surplus Center also has a website with many hydraulic part options if you prefer to buy direct. The relief pressure is preset a little high 3,800 psi but price is great and is simple to adjust pressure down if needed. Normal operation is for pump to "kick down" to high pressure lower speed when encountering difficult splits but relief valve should open before engine stalls out. If engine stalls, lower relief valve pressure setting until relief opens before stalling.
Second component is a decision based on how important ram speed is to you. Your 16 gallon per minute (gpm) pump needs at least a 240cc OHV engine to give you speed without compromising on splitting force. Your Honda GX160 engine needs to be mated to a 11 gpm pump so you have full splitting force but speed will be 69% (11 divided by 16) what you were used to 30 years ago. The Honda engine is a commercial-grade engine with a great reputation for easy starting, good fuel economy and long life. This option will give you great engine to split 24" diameter rounds if you can live with lower speed. This is your simplest solution. The 11 gpm 2-stage pumps start at $100 and go up from there. Made in the USA pumps are available for a few more dollars if you are looking for better quality.
If speed is more important, a bigger engine will allow you to use your existing 16 gpm pump and enjoy the speed of the original 30-year old splitter. There are no-name 420cc engines on eBay for under $300 but shaft size is different than the 3/4" x 2-5/16" shaft of your current Honda engine so you will need to change Lovejoy couplers and if shaft length is different you will need to change how pump is mounted. Currently, there are some bigger name-brand snowblower engines with the right shaft size that would be easier to bolt on but you will need to modify to add an air filter system as snowblower engines are not equipped with an air filter. See below for a couple snowblower engines with one priced at $224 with free shipping.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/294361667962
https://www.ebay.com/itm/144816457966?hash=item21b7bbc8ee:g:ZocAAOSw2zpj34uI
https://www.ebay.com/itm/285091585550
Husqvarna snowblower engine
With the cylinder working okay, you are two components away from having a splitter working like it did 30 years ago.
First component needed is a control valve with a relief valve. See example below from Surplus Center eBay listing for a valve for $59.95 plus shipping. Surplus Center also has a website with many hydraulic part options if you prefer to buy direct. The relief pressure is preset a little high 3,800 psi but price is great and is simple to adjust pressure down if needed. Normal operation is for pump to "kick down" to high pressure lower speed when encountering difficult splits but relief valve should open before engine stalls out. If engine stalls, lower relief valve pressure setting until relief opens before stalling.
Second component is a decision based on how important ram speed is to you. Your 16 gallon per minute (gpm) pump needs at least a 240cc OHV engine to give you speed without compromising on splitting force. Your Honda GX160 engine needs to be mated to a 11 gpm pump so you have full splitting force but speed will be 69% (11 divided by 16) what you were used to 30 years ago. The Honda engine is a commercial-grade engine with a great reputation for easy starting, good fuel economy and long life. This option will give you great engine to split 24" diameter rounds if you can live with lower speed. This is your simplest solution. The 11 gpm 2-stage pumps start at $100 and go up from there. Made in the USA pumps are available for a few more dollars if you are looking for better quality.
If speed is more important, a bigger engine will allow you to use your existing 16 gpm pump and enjoy the speed of the original 30-year old splitter. There are no-name 420cc engines on eBay for under $300 but shaft size is different than the 3/4" x 2-5/16" shaft of your current Honda engine so you will need to change Lovejoy couplers and if shaft length is different you will need to change how pump is mounted. Currently, there are some bigger name-brand snowblower engines with the right shaft size that would be easier to bolt on but you will need to modify to add an air filter system as snowblower engines are not equipped with an air filter. See below for a couple snowblower engines with one priced at $224 with free shipping.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/294361667962
https://www.ebay.com/itm/144816457966?hash=item21b7bbc8ee:g:ZocAAOSw2zpj34uI
https://www.ebay.com/itm/285091585550
Husqvarna snowblower engine
Craigmn, thanks for your very complete and helpful reply. I really appreciate the time that folks here are giving to help others. Let me give you an update. Today I put the gauge on the machine. I don’t know if that did a lot of good but at least I do see the pressure now. The system will exceed 3000 psi. when deadheaded. But of course, that is short-lived and it stalls out. I am not sure, but I think there is some kind of issue with the pump. Because it still doesn’t seem to me to be dropping into low flow high-pressure mode. But I believe I have found at least a temporary solution And I think this is the way my dad originally had it adjusted when he built it. I have backed out the adjustment screw on the pump almost all the way. It seems to be happy this way, even though it doesn’t appear to be dropping into “low gear“. And that appears to have also fixed another problem. That was that when I put the cylinder into reverse, it bogged the engine down like crazy. You can see the videos below. In the first one, it is doing that. After adjusting the valve, it is much happier. it still pushes upwards of 3000 psi when deadheaded before stalling. if I could get it even lower, I would, but the screw is just about backed all the way out. In short, it is behaving just about as good as it did 30 or 40 years ago.
There is only one odd thing that I’m wondering about at this point. That is that the suction line to the pump is collapsing. Is that an indicator of a problem? Or is it just because it’s a high flow pump and I need stiffer tubing? I think the tank might be a little bit small as well, or maybe I just don’t have enough fluid in it. I believe the tank would probably hold around 5 gallons but it’s only about half full. I’m guessing it’s probably best to keep as much fluid in there as possible, just to keep aeration down, but I don’t see how that can cause the collapsed hose issue. BTW the cap to the tank is vented. I have been thinking about upgrading the control valve and pump, but since it’s working about as good as it ever has, I may just go ahead and use it the way it is. It is operating about like it always has and can work me to death, so I certainly don’t need any more speed, and it busts pretty good size logs.
View attachment IMG_0835.MOV
View attachment IMG_0834.MOV
There is only one odd thing that I’m wondering about at this point. That is that the suction line to the pump is collapsing. Is that an indicator of a problem? Or is it just because it’s a high flow pump and I need stiffer tubing? I think the tank might be a little bit small as well, or maybe I just don’t have enough fluid in it. I believe the tank would probably hold around 5 gallons but it’s only about half full. I’m guessing it’s probably best to keep as much fluid in there as possible, just to keep aeration down, but I don’t see how that can cause the collapsed hose issue. BTW the cap to the tank is vented. I have been thinking about upgrading the control valve and pump, but since it’s working about as good as it ever has, I may just go ahead and use it the way it is. It is operating about like it always has and can work me to death, so I certainly don’t need any more speed, and it busts pretty good size logs.
View attachment IMG_0835.MOV
View attachment IMG_0834.MOV
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The videos are extremely helpful in understanding your issues. My prior recommendations (and likely others) were based on an assumption of much larger hydraulic cylinder. The 16 gpm pump information had me assuming your hydraulic cylinder was close to 5" diameter x 24" long cylinder typically used on 35 ton splitters.
Disregard my prior advice of needing bigger engine as your issue issue is strictly too much oil flow from 16 gpm 2-stage pump. The hoses and cylinder are too small for that much oil flow. The collapsed suction line was caused by trying to suck too much oil through narrow hose (think of sucking thick milkshake through small diameter straw). This oil starvation is called cavitation and is a leading cause of pump failure. Continued use of 16 gpm pump with cavitation condition will cause your pump to fail prematurely. The large diameter of the cylinder rod results in faster return stroke and will make a single stage pump a better option.
Going forward, keep the Honda engine and mate it to a single stage pump rated at around 3 gpm. The engine should have enough power to get pump to full pressure before stalling. I would definitely go with new control valve with built-in pressure relief valve. I would set relief valve pressure at 3,000 psi maximum. Below is an example of a suitable valve from Northern Tool and Equipment that would address your stalling and cavitation issues. Pump should bolt right on in place of your current 2-stage pump.
https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200641987_200641987
Disregard my prior advice of needing bigger engine as your issue issue is strictly too much oil flow from 16 gpm 2-stage pump. The hoses and cylinder are too small for that much oil flow. The collapsed suction line was caused by trying to suck too much oil through narrow hose (think of sucking thick milkshake through small diameter straw). This oil starvation is called cavitation and is a leading cause of pump failure. Continued use of 16 gpm pump with cavitation condition will cause your pump to fail prematurely. The large diameter of the cylinder rod results in faster return stroke and will make a single stage pump a better option.
Going forward, keep the Honda engine and mate it to a single stage pump rated at around 3 gpm. The engine should have enough power to get pump to full pressure before stalling. I would definitely go with new control valve with built-in pressure relief valve. I would set relief valve pressure at 3,000 psi maximum. Below is an example of a suitable valve from Northern Tool and Equipment that would address your stalling and cavitation issues. Pump should bolt right on in place of your current 2-stage pump.
https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200641987_200641987
Thanks Craigmn,
The machine is definitely a hodge-podge from scrounged parts. I'm not sure of the usual specs for cylinders (ID, OD, etc.) but this cylinder has a 2-3/4" OD "piston" or ram. The OD of the cylinder itself is 4". And it has a 24" throw (in the videos I didn't run it through the full cycle). I'm sure it's pretty non-standard compared to what is normally used. When I first realized the size of the pump, I recognized that I had a pretty good mismatch between pump and motor, so I know the pump probably has to go. But right now, it's actually working pretty good. I only use this thing once in a blue moon, so I'll have to decide whether it's really worth the investment to upgrade the pump and valve (because of the configuration, it would also require hoses, changes to mounting of the valve, linkages, etc.). I might just go get an electric splitter and be done with it. Have to give it some thought - it's got sentimental value...
By the way, I think I might be able to improve the cavitation issue. After I drained the fluid from it, it dawned on me that the fitting at the bottom of the tank is probably a significant restriction. Again, I'm slowly learning some details about how my dad built this thing. The fitting has about a 1/2" ID, so I'm going to change it out with a large hose barb that can flow more oil. Also, the tank itself is not ideally mounted. The tank centerline is only about an inch higher in elevation than the pump. So it probably wouldn't hurt to remount the tank so it is a little higher, and I need to keep it full.
I have other odds and ends to deal with as well. This thing has a fairly complex system of linkages that control operations. It's actually quite clever, but a bit of a Rube Goldberg setup. If my dad engineered this himself, then it's just one more thing that he did that I am in awe of. He might have been working from some sort of homebuilder's plan, but I kind of doubt it. Anyway, one of the linkages is busted, and I need to get that fixed and make some adjustments. I can operate it now without that linkage, but it is a little cumbersome.
Thank you for all your thoughtful and informed responses on this. I now feel like I'm much better informed as to what to do to make this machine more workable for the future.
Blessings,
Keith
The machine is definitely a hodge-podge from scrounged parts. I'm not sure of the usual specs for cylinders (ID, OD, etc.) but this cylinder has a 2-3/4" OD "piston" or ram. The OD of the cylinder itself is 4". And it has a 24" throw (in the videos I didn't run it through the full cycle). I'm sure it's pretty non-standard compared to what is normally used. When I first realized the size of the pump, I recognized that I had a pretty good mismatch between pump and motor, so I know the pump probably has to go. But right now, it's actually working pretty good. I only use this thing once in a blue moon, so I'll have to decide whether it's really worth the investment to upgrade the pump and valve (because of the configuration, it would also require hoses, changes to mounting of the valve, linkages, etc.). I might just go get an electric splitter and be done with it. Have to give it some thought - it's got sentimental value...
By the way, I think I might be able to improve the cavitation issue. After I drained the fluid from it, it dawned on me that the fitting at the bottom of the tank is probably a significant restriction. Again, I'm slowly learning some details about how my dad built this thing. The fitting has about a 1/2" ID, so I'm going to change it out with a large hose barb that can flow more oil. Also, the tank itself is not ideally mounted. The tank centerline is only about an inch higher in elevation than the pump. So it probably wouldn't hurt to remount the tank so it is a little higher, and I need to keep it full.
I have other odds and ends to deal with as well. This thing has a fairly complex system of linkages that control operations. It's actually quite clever, but a bit of a Rube Goldberg setup. If my dad engineered this himself, then it's just one more thing that he did that I am in awe of. He might have been working from some sort of homebuilder's plan, but I kind of doubt it. Anyway, one of the linkages is busted, and I need to get that fixed and make some adjustments. I can operate it now without that linkage, but it is a little cumbersome.
Thank you for all your thoughtful and informed responses on this. I now feel like I'm much better informed as to what to do to make this machine more workable for the future.
Blessings,
Keith
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Good luck with whatever direction you decide to pursue. A simple no cost strategy is to run the engine at 1/4 to 1/2 throttle rather than full speed. Engine has maximum torque at this lower speed so splitting power will be the same while lower oil flow will help with your issues..
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