Hi All, First Timer, First Pro Saw

[SuburbRedneck]

Hi All, First Timer, First Pro Saw:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:
Long post but I hope it will eventually help other newbies too.
Thank you for all the free advice I have already read from everyone’s posts…. Feel free to hack and slash what I have to say I’m here to lean and won’t take it personal. I have much experience with welding, cars, 2-stroke engines (tools and motorcycles), and the general experience to regrind wood and steel drill bits correctly the first time by hand. I see being called a redneck a badge of honor because they make the best crazy drinking buddies.
Spent most of my spare time over the last 2 weeks learning all the things I really need to know to effectively/efficiently operate my first pro saw a used MS660. I wanted twice the power of my trusty old j3816 john deere (2.3hp) with a MS440 but I got a good deal on the 660. I will have a sharp learning curve with three times the power. The 660 came with a 32” B/C which I immediately changed out for a 20” B/C. When I’m comfortable with the 20” and need the 32” I plan on using it. I’ve got some questions at the bottom but did I leave anything important out or misunderstand things learned?

Before anyone starts in on the obvious - Yes the j3816 (Homelite) is a low quality saw… as bad as I treated it the first few YEARS it still starts right up easy and does what it was originally designed to do. It has about 90 cords of use with many VERY SLOW full 16” depth cuts

Good bookmarks and specific learned knowledge from arboristsite.com
• Stihl MS391, my first saw, help me accessorize it (Great first timer advice)
o http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/169759-5.htm
• The Lonely Island - Jizz In My Pants (LOL tears in the eyes):hmm3grin2orange:
o The Lonely Island - Jizz In My Pants - YouTube
• A Tale of Three Saws (Very long read but worth it - realized I will probably only polish the ports, change air filter, mod muffler, and tune up. Everything else isn't cost/time efficient for more power)
o http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/137051.htm
• Woods Porting The MS660......Tricks And Tips
o http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/208704.htm
• NWP piston for 066
o http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/125483.htm
• A word about splitting large firewood rounds by hand (Purchased fiskar X27 and 90deg twist wedge)
o http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/206403.htm

Other ‘New’ Knowledge gained (from numerous arboristsite.com posts and other sites):
• Wow moment - Damit :msp_mad: never realized how much a small amount dirt would affect blade sharpness. Only use to look out for rocks or nails in the bark.
• Chaps are a necessity for my pro saw upgrade especially with a 32” bar… So I bought a pair of chaps
• If you have the money, nothing Stihl sells is poor quality or bad (bar lube, 2-stroke oil, guide bars, chains, chainsaws, and accessories). As a non-professional (low quantity) I will just buy Stihl, take the guess work out of part manufactures, and spend the extra 20% to 50%.
• Northern tool chain grinder is good enough (practice on a crap chain first)… So I bought one… Make sure the rake is lowered ‘proportionally’ to the tooth cut back or you won’t cut deep enough
• I will keep hand filing my chains also because even pro woodsmen use hand files to touch up
• Safety chains aren’t really safer AT ALL if you don’t know how to use a chainsaw (as you all would say “Al Gore BS”)
• Plunge cuts aren’t much more difficult with a full chisel chain compared to a safety chain
• Try HARD to find a good repair shop because certifications don’t mean diddly squat when it comes to quality workmanship
• Ignition upgrades on an unmodified chainsaw are just as useless as on an unmodified car

Downloaded or Compiled Documents:
• bar oil.txt
• chain.txt
• Estimating Leaning Tree Failures.pdf
• How to Use Felling Wedges.docx (bigger saw=felling bigger trees = more danger/damage)
• Husqvarna OEM Chainsaw Bars.docx
• j3816 john deere chain saw operator manual.pdf
• j3816 john deere chain saw.txt
• northern tool chain grinder.pdf
• OREGON BAR PART-NUMBERING SYSTEM.pdf
• OREGON Maintenance and Safety Manual.pdf
• short list of handy accessories (Whitespider).docx
• Stihl 660 Chainsaw.docx
• Stihl 660 Chainsaw.pdf
• Stihl Chain Saw Safety Manual.pdf
• Stihl Saw Chain (and Bar) Selection & Identification.pdf

Questions::msp_confused:
1. For a non-professional are there any significant functional difference between chain gauges of 0.050 and 0.063?
2. Is there any significant cutting speed increase by upgrading from a 3/8 to a 0.404 chain pitch?
3. Is this correct? Long term (+3 months) chainsaw storage is just:
a. Standard Cleaning
b. Fuel - Pour out until the fuel tank empty and run saw until stops on its own
c. Bar lube – Fill reservoir to top
d. B/C – Spray with WD-40
4. When I take any engine out of storage I always use new gas and spray WD-40 in the spark plug hole(s) before first start up… Is there anything else to do with a chainsaw before first start up?
5. Blocking is just the act of sawing a trunk into firewood length sections which then need splitting?
6. Why the hell is the EPA concerned with chainsaw efficiency? A 100 long hall truckers probably put out more harmfully emissions in a year than all the chainsaws in the lower 48 combined!!!! Is that an Al Gore era thing too?

 

[Deets066]

Holy crap, how long did it take you to type all of that!?

 

[Stihl 041S]

Notice it doesn't say"sent from my iPhone"

Welcome

 

[bryanr2]

Uh, that would have taken me all day to type and I am a pretty wordy person. Excellent first post. Had to rep ya. Others I am sure will do the same.

 

[nitro]

welcome...

i hope you realize that C A D is incureable and we assume no responsability for your addiction



HI, my name is Tom and im a chainsaw addict...

 

[SuburbRedneck]

Tks, yea long time hunt and pecking keyboard

Yea, it took a while to type but most of it was copy and paste from other notes I have taken over the past couple of weeks. The documents list was also copy and paste with a freeware program that reads whats on the hard drive. I just love tools learning, using, TV 'How Its Made'… just never made the time for chainsaw learning.

When I was learning chainsaw stuff I got more excited because I couldn't think of a more powerful common use standalone handheld tool with no cable/hose (electric, pneumatic, or hydraulic) attached. Except of course guns and other explosive based tools that expend enormous power in a fraction of a second.

 

[SuburbRedneck]

thread break out?

Should I break out each question as a new tread and link the threads back here? Tks

 

[hangfirew8]

Questions::msp_confused:
1. For a non-professional are there any significant functional difference between chain gauges of 0.050 and 0.063?
2. Is there any significant cutting speed increase by upgrading from a 3/8 to a 0.404 chain pitch?
3. Is this correct? Long term (+3 months) chainsaw storage is just:
a. Standard Cleaning
b. Fuel - Pour out until the fuel tank empty and run saw until stops on its own
c. Bar lube – Fill reservoir to top
d. B/C – Spray with WD-40
4. When I take any engine out of storage I always use new gas and spray WD-40 in the spark plug hole(s) before first start up… Is there anything else to do with a chainsaw before first start up?
5. Blocking is just the act of sawing a trunk into firewood length sections which then need splitting?
6. Why the hell is the EPA concerned with chainsaw efficiency? A 100 long hall truckers probably put out more harmfully emissions in a year than all the chainsaws in the lower 48 combined!!!! Is that an Al Gore era thing too?

I'll take a crack.
1. No
2. 404 will be slower on the same saw, since it has to move more wood. It will stay sharp a little longer, though.
3. a and b are OK. Filling bar oil reservoir to the top is good if you want a bigger puddle under the saw. Never use WD-40 as a preservative. It cleans the metal of real preservatives and then migrates off. Use "Water Displacement Formula 40" to get stuff dry, then apply a real oil based preservative.
4. Never use WD-40 as a lubricant, since it is not a lubricant, and never was intended as a lubricant. It is only de-odorized kerosene. Squirt a little 2-stroke oil in there instead.
5. I thought that was "bucking".
6. Long haul truck emmisions are already regulated, Gotta expand the power base, you know.

HF

 

[SuburbRedneck]

Great Info Tks

1&2 - Great I'll just stick to using 3/8 0.050

3c - "Filling bar oil reservoir to the top is good if you want a bigger puddle under the saw."..... Thats what I was thinking based on the leaking Stihl oil problems on this site but the 'official' Stihl video says the opposite.

3d and 4 - I wasn't very clear... I don't use WD40 as a lube or preservative. For storage I spray it on to ensure any un seen water in small nooks will be displaced form the metals. For start up any liquid is better than dry but I use it liberally in the cylinder as a perpetrator to help mitigate the risk minor surface rust could scare the cylinder wall or rings.

5 - I though bucking was the up cut?... So what is blocking then?

6 - Guess so... also I looked it up a single long-haul trucks uses approximately 20,500 gallons a year. So probably more like 5000 truckers a year (100 million gallons).... Just doesn't seen to be worth the effort when the US consumed 375 BILLION gallons of refined petroleum in 2011 (How much oil does the United States consume per year? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA))

 

[SuburbRedneck]

My 660 progress –
The 660 coughs on first pull w full choke and starts on the 1or2 pull at half choke… I did a couple compression tests (157 psi), a cylinder leak down test (2-3% at 40psi), wrote down serial number, and took it to the closest certified Stihl repair shop for a good once over.

First off, I specifically asked the shop not to do a crankcase pressure and vacuum test because I didn’t know their level of competence and didn’t want them to ‘accidently’ use more than 10psi on the pressure test. The shop guy said the compression was 135psi and the cylinder leak down (Not crankcase vacuum test) result was 10% per minute (WHAT THE HELL DOES “per minute” MEAN, nothing I know of relative to a standard engine leak down test). I checked my compression tester gauge against 3 other +175psi gauges in my garage with air at approximately 140psi. All the gauges were within +/- 4lbs of 140psi…So the shop guy didn’t know how to do a compression test either or has a really bad compression tester gauge. Everything else he said after that was worthless and I didn’t pay attention. The bright side he didn’t make the saw worse, it still starts easy, isn’t running lean, has the same serial number, and backed up the comments on this site that certified Stihl repair shops can be crap.

(I understand the cylinder leak down test on a 2-stroke engine only checks the rings, head gasket, and the integrity of the piston/combustion chamber. On a 4-stroke the test also checks the valves which will be much more prone to leakage at pressures lower than a compression test. IMO the logic of a simple leak down test on just the rings, head gasket, and the integrity of the piston/combustion chamber is still viable on a 2-stroke. The argument against a 2-stroke leak down test is that the compression test and visual inspection are sufficient but neither test/inspection can sufficiently identify a small leak in the head gasket that may burn through later.)

FUN FUN FUN! I went through a few tanks of gas with the 20” B&C by bucking a couple large white oaks… What a pleasure to use the 660 and the big spikes are fantastic… The chain will stop if I push down too hard when the bar is buried in the wood (didn’t expect it would stop) but the cutting speed is still impressive. I felt comfortable with the 20”, so for the last tank of gas I went up to the 28” B&C… It’s nice to only need 1 cut on the smaller (18”-26”) sections without have to ‘walk’ the saw all the way around…. Very Happy Might also by a 36” bar because the 28” bar that came with the saw is pretty worn. After a couple of hours the 20-26lbs 660 started to feel heavy and I began to miss my little John Deere at 12.5-14lbs but I was having too much fun with the 660 and big wood.

Stihl 660 – 20lbs w 20” B/C w/o Gas and Bar Oil
Stihl 660 – 22.5lbs w 20” B/C w Full Gas and Bar Oil
Stihl 660 – 23.5lbs w28” B/C. w/o Full Gas and Bar Oil
Stihl 660 – 26lbs w28” B/C. w Full Gas and Bar Oil

 

[SuburbRedneck]

Newbie Research Update 12-09-30 (Ver02)
If anyone sees any problems below please say so. Tks
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General Arborist Information:
• Safety - From my research it appears chaps, steel toe boots, ear plugs (christmas tree style), and leather gloves are the minimal recommended safety equipment. At +30k US chainsaw injuries annually just use Google Images and type “chainsaw injury” for a good horror show. Popular Mechanics quote about chainsaws “Even Hollywood knows they're the rabid pit bull of the tool world”
• Safety - Chaps might not protect from an electric chainsaw slash because many electric saws are direct drive and have more torque at lower RPM (under load) than a gas saw
• Hardware - If you have the money, nothing Stihl sells is poor quality or bad (bar oil, 2-stroke oil, guide bars, chains, chainsaws, files, and other accessories). As a non-professional (low quantity) I will only buy Stihl accessories thereby taking the guess work out of which manufacture is ‘best’. For my ignorance, convenience, and peace of mind, I pay an extra 20% to 50% more than some competitor’s products.
• Hardware - For a non-professional there aren’t any significant functional differences between chain gauges of 0.050 and 0.063.
• Hardware - There is not a significant cutting speed increase from upgrading a 3/8 to a 0.404 chain pitch. It is much more important to make sure the chain is sharp and the depth-gauge is filed to the correct height.
• Hardware - Ignition upgrades on an unmodified chainsaw are just as useless as on an unmodified car
• Hardware - Northern Tool chain grinder is good enough (practice on a crap chain first)… Make sure the depth-gauge is lowered ‘proportionally’ to the tooth cut back or you won’t cut deep enough - http://www.arboristsite.com/chain-sharpening/114624-2.htm
• Practical - Chain Blade Dulling
o Small amount dirt can severely dull the chain blades. In one second, imagine rubbing the chain blades sideways against 100 grit sandpaper at 40-70 mph a few dozen times.
o Too steep of an angle on the cutters will cause them to dull quickly. Great filing instructions in Oregon’s Maintenance and Safety Manual B&C and Sproket.pdf that should apply to most chain brands… http://www.oregoncuttinggear.com/pdfs/ms_manual.pdf
o Duff, the decaying, soft matter of a dead and rotting tree, will wreak havoc on a chainsaw blade's sharpness.
o White oak's high density causes it to blunt cutting tools, such as saws and files, though not as severely as silica-containing tropical woods. The only reason I could find why oaks MIGHT dull chains faster than maples is their bark contains approximately 5X more iron than most other trees in temperate zones.
• Practical - Non-professionals should hand file chain too because even pro woodsmen use hand files to touch-up between fill-ups
• Practical - If you put on a new/dry (no bar oil) B&C, oil it manually and by free spinning the chain with the engine at half throttle until the chain consistently spits off bar lube. Failure to lube the B&C before putting it to wood will cause very high ware initially. If you don’t believe me, at night in a dark location, put on a new B&C, start your saw, rev the engine and immediately put it to wood…watch the fireworks as the sparks literally fly off.
• Practical - Safety chains aren’t really safer AT ALL if you don’t know how to use a chainsaw
• Practical - Plunge cuts aren’t much more difficult with a full chisel chain compared to a safety chain
• Practical - Most homeowners do not need a pro saw and can be hurt or killed if they are inexperienced. In the right hands, a ‘cheap’ 16” gas Home Depot or Lowes saw with a sharp chain can do amazing work but not as fast as a pro saw.
• Practical - Try HARD to find a good repair shop because certifications don’t mean diddly squat when it comes to quality workmanship
• Practical - Good newbie videos on YouTube “STIHL Video Library” - STIHL Video Library - Informative Videos about STIHL Outdoor Power Equipment | STIHL USA
• Practical - If necessary use diesel or kerosene to thin bar lube during the winter
• Practical - How to clean out the crankcase without taking everything apart = Pour some mix gas in the crankcase and turn upside down. Repeat. Spin the crank over a couple of times then blow out with compressed air
• Practical - Long term (+3 months) chainsaw storage: 1. Standard Cleaning, 2.Fuel - Pour out until the fuel tank empty and run saw until stops on its own, 3.Empty bar oil reservoir on Stihl saws because they leak over time, 4.Make sure bar and chain don’t have any water in grooves that may cause rust
• Practical – Gasoline:
o Use the lowest ethanol gas you can find.
o E15 will most likely KILL your engine quickly… possibly kill your saw with just one tank
o If you have access to leaded gas, use it
o Relative to the price of chains, bars, bar oil, files… you might as will spend the extra 0.40 per gallon to buy the highest octane gas regularly sold in your area
o Don’t mix more gas/oil than you will need because it can go ‘bad’ in 3-months while stored in a sealed container. There is much disagreement on how long gas will stay ‘good’ and if fuel stabilizers actually stabilize, but most people agree 3-months is reasonable in a quality sealed container.
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Arborist tools and accessories (No climbing items listed here -??Any climbers want to add to the list??)

---Must Have---
• Chainsaw(s) appropriate for the job
• Sharpening equipment
• Scrench
• Mixed fuel and bar oil
• If splitting firewood also bring: Fiskars X27, +5lbs maul, and a couple of twist splitting wedges (like Wetterling Twisted Splitting Wedge)
• Chaps, steel toe boots, ear plugs (christmas tree style), and leather gloves
---Nice to have---
• Protection of pickup carpet and seat material from cuts with bar scabbard or wrap entire saw in old heavy towel to also protect against bar oil leaks. Old towel can also be used for general cleanup
• Extra parts:
o Second Scrench
o Bar nuts… when you drop one and lands (somewhere) in deep leaf-litter it is not worth the time/frustration to find a $0.50 nut
o You will eventually have to replace them, so bring along extra chains, a pair of gloves, a rim sprocket, an air filter, and a pre-gapped spark plug (don’t forget socket/ratchet)
o Second guide bar… you can take the power head off a tightly pinched bar (this is when you’re most likely to drop a bar nut) and the nose sprocket bearing could fail on the primary bar. A different length bar will give you cutting options but you have to carry the extra chains for it too.
• Couple of cheap paint brushes, one with the bristles trimmed back and reserved for brushing off the air filter, the other for general purpose (such as brushing crap away from fuel/oil caps before opening)
• Some sort of tool for cleaning the bar groove
• Screwdriver for adjusting the carb
• Asphalt Cutter (steel, 15lbs, 5ft long, with 8” wide wedge .. similar to Logmatic Wedge Axe but much stronger) – I use it as a pry bar for lightly a pinched bar, a log roller lever arm, to finish prying/cutting (like wedge axe) firewood logs that don’t split completely because of a knot, and if the pickup truck gets stuck it makes a half decent (although very heavy) shovel
• Assortment of plastic bucking wedges and BFH (I use the back end of a large hatchet instead of BFH)
• Couple of lighters, magnesium fire starter, and/or waterproof matches
• Length of good rope, cable (wire rope), or a few long tow straps
• Small first-aid kit (like they sell for backpackers) and at least a gallon of water to drink/wash out wounds

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Bookmarks from arboristsite.com
• Stihl MS391, my first saw, help me accessorize it (Great first timer advice) - http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/169759-5.htm
• The Lonely Island - Jizz In My Pants (LOL tears in the eyes) - The Lonely Island - Jizz In My Pants - YouTube
• A Tale of Three Saws (Very long read but worth it - realized I will probably only polish the ports, change air filter, mod muffler, and tune up. Everything else isn't cost/time efficient for more power) - http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/137051.htm
• Woods Porting The MS660......Tricks And Tips - http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/208704.htm
• NWP piston for 066 - http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/125483.htm
• A word about splitting large firewood rounds by hand - http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/206403.htm

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Downloaded or Compiled Documents (may give you web research ideas):
• Chainsaw Purchases (Folder)
• Chainsaw Videos and Pics (Folder)
• Engine Test Procedures (Folder)
• Properties of Wood - USFS (Folder)
• STIHL Video Library (Folder)
• 000 Compiled Knowledge.docx
• Arborist Terminology.xlsx
• arboristsite.com.txt
• B&C and bar oil (Notes).txt
• B&C Husqvarna (2012).docx
• B&C Oregon (2012).pdf
• B&C Stihl (2012).pdf
• Chainsaw Online Stores (Notes).docx
• Estimating Leaning Tree Failures (UofGA 09-2000).pdf
• How to Use Felling Wedges (Notes).docx
• John Deere j3816 Chainsaw (Notes).txt
• John Deere j3816 Chainsaw Operator Manual.pdf
• Northern Tool Chain Grinder Operator Manual (Useless Manual).pdf
• Oregon Maintenance and Safety Manual - B&C, and Sprocket.pdf
• Oregon Maintenance and Safety Manual(F/N A106971 AG 0904).pdf
• Stihl 660 Chainsaw (Notes).docx
• Stihl 660 Chainsaw Instruction Manual.pdf
• Stihl Chain Saw Safety Manual.pdf
• Tree Felling (New Zealand 'OSHA').pdf

 

[Anthony_Va.]

I'll take a crack.
1. No
2. 404 will be slower on the same saw, since it has to move more wood. It will stay sharp a little longer, though.
3. a and b are OK. Filling bar oil reservoir to the top is good if you want a bigger puddle under the saw. Never use WD-40 as a preservative. It cleans the metal of real preservatives and then migrates off. Use "Water Displacement Formula 40" to get stuff dry, then apply a real oil based preservative.
4. Never use WD-40 as a lubricant, since it is not a lubricant, and never was intended as a lubricant. It is only de-odorized kerosene. Squirt a little 2-stroke oil in there instead.
5. I thought that was "bucking".
6. Long haul truck emmisions are already regulated, Gotta expand the power base, you know.

HF

Not exactly. .404 would be faster on a 660 with a 20" bar, and would also stay sharper longer. On a small saw like a ms361, .404 would be slower. .404 takes a bigger bite, therefore takes a bigger saw to pull it. But, if you have that big saw, like the 660, then .404 will cut like a dream and is the better option on a shorter bar like your 20".

 

[Freakingstang]

Not exactly. .404 would be faster on a 660 with a 20" bar, and would also stay sharper longer. On a small saw like a ms361, .404 would be slower. .404 takes a bigger bite, therefore takes a bigger saw to pull it. But, if you have that big saw, like the 660, then .404 will cut like a dream and is the better option on a shorter bar like your 20".

I agree. .404 is also more expensive. I wouldn't switch unless you have the bars and chains already...

3/8 .050 is the "norm". Welcome to the site. I prefer a 24" on the 660. Seems to balance about perfect that way. 20" on a 660 is what most of the amish loggers run around here (in .404).

 

[Mpbowyer]

You're backwards on the emissions. One rich running old-school (non-strato) chainsaw would have more harmful emissions than a handful of long-haul trucks.

Emissions isn't just pounds of CO2.

I design coal power plants and associated emissions control equipment. I have not looked anything up in the making of this post. I might be off by a little, but not orders of magnitude.

 

[Anthony_Va.]

I agree. .404 is also more expensive. I wouldn't switch unless you have the bars and chains already...

3/8 .050 is the "norm". Welcome to the site. I prefer a 24" on the 660. Seems to balance about perfect that way. 20" on a 660 is what most of the amish loggers run around here (in .404).

Yea 3/8th .050 is norm here too. .404 will require you to change bar and sprocket and the chain would cost more. It is awesome to cut with though.

The new Stihl light bars balance like a dream in 28" on a 660 also. I've got hooked on the light bars lately.

 

[thomas1]

Where ya at in Northern Virginia?

 

[lone wolf]

Holy crap, how long did it take you to type all of that!?

Yup how about the most important question first OP? What do you need to know first?

 

[VTWoodchuck]

Holy crap man. How much wood do you cut?! And what kind?
I do 'bout 12-14 cord for firewood from sept-dec. (nothing compared to most on here)I don't have a 660 or a grinder. Can't justify the cost. Not to mention, lugging a 660 around for firewood sized trees would suck.
Anywho, enjoy your new saw. Must be fun as hell to blow through logs with that beast!

 

[user 64030]

First of the to OP, a belated welcome, and WOW! way to jump int he deep end!

...Questions::msp_confused:
1. For a non-professional are there any significant functional difference between chain gauges of 0.050 and 0.063?

I'll take a crack.
1. No

Wouldn't .063 oil better be it Pro or regular-joe? The wider grove would carry more bar oil down the length of the bar. On Stihl chain there is no benifit in a smaller kerf from .50 (there is a thread on that - somewhere in here)

...I don't have a 660 or a grinder. Can't justify the cost. Not to mention, lugging a 660 around for firewood sized trees would suck.
Anywho, enjoy your new saw. Must be fun as hell to blow through logs with that beast!

When you find a deal you find a deal. As for for "firewood" sized trees... The last tree I bucked (it was already down from a storm was over 24" in dia as I had to cut from two sides because I didn't have my 36" bar at the time. I only cut dead wood, and take it what ever size it comes. Right now on my property I have one 20" class oak on the ground, and about 5 more standing dead (Oak/other hardwoods). All are 20"+ trees, so I never know what my firewood sized trees will be.


dw

 

[H 2 H]

Welcome to AS :msp_biggrin: