I'm a certified arborist in Asheville NC with 2 years tree climbing experience, 3 as a groundsman, 9 years in horticulture, on ropes for over 20 years while ice/ rockclimbing, caving, sailing. The last company I worked for I made $17 an hour but I did sales, estimates, marketing, and brought in a lot of work. I'm Currently making $15 hr. I was offered a salaried position of $26,000 a year. I have not accepted this offer or made a counter offer. We live in an area that is 2 inches from being a temperate rainforest...lots of rainy days. I'm weighing my options and need advice of the pro's and con's of being on salary. The obvious is that I would have a definite income in the off season which is usually 4 months averaging 20-25 hrs a week maybe. The on season being 8 months and over 40 hrs a week if and only if it doesn't rain. I'm worried about being underpaid and over worked. My employer hasn't climbed a tree since I was hired 4 months ago... not complaining I love it, just saying he has. I'm also trying to put the hourly in perspective as well. I've worked for $17 an hr as a finish carpenter, $15 hr as a landscape forman sitting on mowers, $15 an hour as a wake board instructor watching moms in bikini's. It seems the higher risk and more dangerous job that is a skilled labor would pay more or should I be grateful that I have a job. I'm also worried if I go salary he might make me sign a non compete clause. I billed out $2600 on side work last 2 months, these were clients I have worked for in the past and no relation to my current employer. My questions: Should I accept the salary offer,What would a good counter offer be or should I stay hourly and ask for a wage increase. Should there be a min and max hours to be worked each week. What other things should I take inconsideration when weighing this out. any and all advice is welcomed and put me in check if need be. I can take constructive criticism. Give me more than i could find when I googled the topic please.
Hourly v.s Salary
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BCbound
ArboristSite Operative
Hopefully some boys in your neck of the wood chime in. Wage is very different area to area. From the sounds of it you should be at the higher end of the pay scale. Personally in this industry I think hourly is better. Salary if it's a big company with other benefits to offer. Maybe a call to other companies to see what they are paying maybe useful. Even if they give you a ballpark range for someone with your experience.
You said you did sales for the last company...did they pay you a commission on top of the $17 per hour?
I'd shot for salery + commission. You might have to go less than $26000 on the salery, but ask to see his books, and figure out what kind of commission you need to get to $26000. For example, look at teh last 3 years. Assume he will do 80% of that business this year and the commission on that 80% will get you to $26000. If he does less, you are working less so have mroe free time. If he makes more, you make more too.
If he wants a non-compete, he better be willing to pay. I'm not signing a non-compete for $26,000. Let him know you will fully disclose your sidework to him to maintain trust and transparency.
I'd shot for salery + commission. You might have to go less than $26000 on the salery, but ask to see his books, and figure out what kind of commission you need to get to $26000. For example, look at teh last 3 years. Assume he will do 80% of that business this year and the commission on that 80% will get you to $26000. If he does less, you are working less so have mroe free time. If he makes more, you make more too.
If he wants a non-compete, he better be willing to pay. I'm not signing a non-compete for $26,000. Let him know you will fully disclose your sidework to him to maintain trust and transparency.
Of course you realize $26K is less than $13/hr. What was your gross income last year from this company? Does his offer include paid vacation time off, paid medical insurance, company car, uniforms, sick time and commissions? Times are tough but don't sell yourself short. Call around. Travel time to another company might not be a bad thing.
If you are going to be in a production position, I would go hourly. I like to get paid for my time, especially overtime. I would look around, sounds to me your boss is trying to get you on the cheap.
Pelorus
Uva uvam vivendo varia fit
I think a salary benefits the employer more than the employee. I don't know how well it would work in your case, but you would certainly want to keep track of the hours you put in. The salary is based on a 40 hour work week? If you happen to work 52 one week, and 46 the next, are those 18 hours "banked" for when you need some time off, or when things slow down?
My limited experience years ago working for a salary was that the company always seemed to come out ahead. Just sayin'.
My limited experience years ago working for a salary was that the company always seemed to come out ahead. Just sayin'.
Pelorus
Uva uvam vivendo varia fit
I can remember working two summers on a dairy farm during my Agr.University days for $100 / week. It built a ton of "character", and tremendous appreciation and friendship for someone who turned out to be the best boss, and hardest worker I have ever had the privilege of getting to know. (R.I.P. Gerald McCormick. Dropped dead in his 50's. While working.)
If you really like and respect who you are working for, sometimes the money is secondary. I would rather work for a good guy for peanuts than a total prick who pays well. Mental health and job stress has some intangible $$$ cost associated to it.
If you really like and respect who you are working for, sometimes the money is secondary. I would rather work for a good guy for peanuts than a total prick who pays well. Mental health and job stress has some intangible $$$ cost associated to it.
Worked 20+ yrs salary in the printing biz, lot of ot and we got paid for it. Over the yrs they kept cutting the rates and then did away with altogether. I retired (told the big boss where to stick his free hrs) but after 3 yrs went back to working in a steel mill as hourly. My old buddies were working 80 hr weeks for free, I was working 80 for time and a half plus bonus. The opp for you to get screwed as salary is very real
If the guy is proposing it, you are probably right... however, I think it can be done in such a way that everybody comes out ahead. The advantage for the employee is year round pay - as long as the employer is willing to not push too many longer weeks (if he says, expect to work 50 hour weeks 30 weeks per year, then expect to work those), and he gives you real down time and doesn't make you show up just to show up when there is nothing to do.
VA-Sawyer
Addicted to ArboristSite
I will NEVER work for salary again! I had a deal with the boss where I was supposed to get all hours over 40/week off as 'comp' time. Worked more than a few 100 hr weeks as Director of Maintenance for his Air Charter outfit. The whole fleet was in crap shape, and I was trying to get them airworthy before the FAA came in and shut him down. Busted my balls on the job, and when I finally thought the planes were safe, I tried to get some time off. Boss kept putting it off, claiming we were still too busy. I finally put my foot down and took a week off. They called me with questions every day of my 'vacation'. A few months later, I tried to get some more time off and was told "No way till next year". He owed me 1500 hrs of 'comp' time off by then. (That is 9 months of time off with pay!) He said that because I didn't have the agreement in writing, he didn't have to honor it. He got my 2 week notice right then and there! NEVER AGAIN !
Something else to consider.....The boss can get you cheap for the summer and then say "Things have slowed down more than expected", as he lays you off for the winter.
Rick
Something else to consider.....The boss can get you cheap for the summer and then say "Things have slowed down more than expected", as he lays you off for the winter.
Rick
NC is the 9th rainiest state in the country. Last year there was 120 rainy days here in asheville. Thats = 17 weeks/ or 4months. We are only 1.75" away from being a temperate rain forest. No work tomorrow because of rain, missed a day last week.
The idea of a steady pay check is very attractive being that I'm about to start a family. I love my job and the guy I work for is not a hard ass or has a big ego. He's is an all around good guy who is willing to share his knowledge and humble enough to admit when he is wrong or to see things from my perspective most of the time.
I start work in october and worked over 40hrs a week and one 51/52hr week
This winter has been slow Jan/Feb 20-25hr weeks
Nov//Dec 30hr weeks.
The wages in this area are suppressed comparitely. I have called to check on wages and called every ISA member to see if they were hiring, they are all slow. There were some good ol' boy's wanting to hire me for $10 an hour as a climber. Seriously?
Leaning toward salary. My questions are
what is reasonable as far as min and max hrs to be worked.
He offered 10% of any sales, now should that include cold calls of existing clients or just the ones I bring in.
What is a reasonalbe production incentive of monthly or quartely profits
Do you think 2 weeks vacation one being paid is acceptable for the 1st year.
Cell phone
$27,000 this is a small Co.
Should I ask to see his books?
And what can I base a raise on in the future if I am a vital asset and continue to prove my worth
Just need help on the negotiations of salary
I appreciate every ones input so far, thanks
The idea of a steady pay check is very attractive being that I'm about to start a family. I love my job and the guy I work for is not a hard ass or has a big ego. He's is an all around good guy who is willing to share his knowledge and humble enough to admit when he is wrong or to see things from my perspective most of the time.
I start work in october and worked over 40hrs a week and one 51/52hr week
This winter has been slow Jan/Feb 20-25hr weeks
Nov//Dec 30hr weeks.
The wages in this area are suppressed comparitely. I have called to check on wages and called every ISA member to see if they were hiring, they are all slow. There were some good ol' boy's wanting to hire me for $10 an hour as a climber. Seriously?
Leaning toward salary. My questions are
what is reasonable as far as min and max hrs to be worked.
He offered 10% of any sales, now should that include cold calls of existing clients or just the ones I bring in.
What is a reasonalbe production incentive of monthly or quartely profits
Do you think 2 weeks vacation one being paid is acceptable for the 1st year.
Cell phone
$27,000 this is a small Co.
Should I ask to see his books?
And what can I base a raise on in the future if I am a vital asset and continue to prove my worth
Just need help on the negotiations of salary
I appreciate every ones input so far, thanks
Thanks rick that is something that I have considered especially since the 8 months of the season would be considerably more than 4 months of off season. My good friend is a lawer who will work pro bono to write a negotiation if need be.
Pelorus
Uva uvam vivendo varia fit
As a potential employee (putting myself in your shoes), I wouldn't feel comfortable asking to see his books (financial statements). And if I were the owner, I would feel a bit put out if an employee asked to see them. That's just me. If you were going to embark on an actual partnership with my company (contributing assets, equipment, etc) it would be a different matter entirely.
I think the other questions you have raised are valid. I think it will be difficult to ever save enough money to get ahead or possibly start your own business with the salary you are talking about getting. Especially if you are the only breadwinner in your family. Good luck to you, nd I mean that sincerely.
I think the other questions you have raised are valid. I think it will be difficult to ever save enough money to get ahead or possibly start your own business with the salary you are talking about getting. Especially if you are the only breadwinner in your family. Good luck to you, nd I mean that sincerely.
VA-Sawyer
Addicted to ArboristSite
Just for ref... I run a small tree business in the Asheville area. I start newbie part time groundies at $10 and will pay $15 for one that knows what to do. I have a guy that climbs part time for me at $25/hr with a 4 hr minimum. I think you are pricing yourself a little too cheaply. Does the boss have real workmens comp insurance or one of the 'ghost' policys that so many around here have? Getting hurt, on the job or off, will leave you in a finacial bind if you don't have savings in the bank. I had a gal cross the centerline and hit me head on about a month ago. Suffered a broken wrist and broken sternum so still unable to work. Her insurance still hasn't paid me the first dime, though they have made empty promises. I get more x-rays on Thur, and I'm hoping the Dr. will at least let me do some groundie work after that.
Good luck whatever you decide,
Rick
Good luck whatever you decide,
Rick
I have started establishing a client base on the side. The larger removals I have scored I took a 10% finders fee and sub it out to a friend who has the larger equipment with the condition that I work the job at my $18 rate, while doing all the PHC, cabling, crown cleaning/restoration myself. He has been fine with that being he is slow. It also seems common practice amongst my peers to get larger co. to help with the larger removals.
Yes I am worried of getting a head at the I'm sorry $16 hr rate or the 27,000 a year and this is what was the catayst for this thread. Working currently with employer as salaried or hope for an increase in hourly. Or, take a micro loan and starting on my own. I like the idea of starting out being debt free, not sure this is possible. Oh and She is the bread winner
Oh the trials and tribulations of life.
Yes I am worried of getting a head at the I'm sorry $16 hr rate or the 27,000 a year and this is what was the catayst for this thread. Working currently with employer as salaried or hope for an increase in hourly. Or, take a micro loan and starting on my own. I like the idea of starting out being debt free, not sure this is possible. Oh and She is the bread winner
Oh the trials and tribulations of life.
Sayheymj
ArboristSite Member
Salary plus commission
I agree with a lot of the excellent advice given here, The best in my opinion perhaps is a salary plus commission scenario. You could afford to sign a no compete clause, as you can make money by selling the company services instead of side work. You can also add an addendum to that clause to keep your existing client list ( as long as you disclose who that is), and perform side work for those disclosed customers only. Remember, this scenario can be good for booth parties as your boss does not have to pay you a commission unless you sale new jobs. So, the dough he pays you is factored in to those sales, kind of like paying piece rate. Little to no risk to him.
You sound like you are good at what you do and confident you have the skill for the job and can offer more than rope & saw work. There are lots of good folks that can work the saw or even climb. Not so many of those have what it takes to do the business side of sales, marketing, and managing the projects.
Although it is always hard to take a risk, remember no risk, no reward. Take stock in yourself, carefully calculate your risk, and go for it when you can.
I agree with a lot of the excellent advice given here, The best in my opinion perhaps is a salary plus commission scenario. You could afford to sign a no compete clause, as you can make money by selling the company services instead of side work. You can also add an addendum to that clause to keep your existing client list ( as long as you disclose who that is), and perform side work for those disclosed customers only. Remember, this scenario can be good for booth parties as your boss does not have to pay you a commission unless you sale new jobs. So, the dough he pays you is factored in to those sales, kind of like paying piece rate. Little to no risk to him.
You sound like you are good at what you do and confident you have the skill for the job and can offer more than rope & saw work. There are lots of good folks that can work the saw or even climb. Not so many of those have what it takes to do the business side of sales, marketing, and managing the projects.
Although it is always hard to take a risk, remember no risk, no reward. Take stock in yourself, carefully calculate your risk, and go for it when you can.
Base the commision on all sales you sell. You should be motiviated to do "cold calls" if times are slow, and he is motivated to send you out on a sales call if you are good...but make sure he is willing to send you out on calls. You might expect a certain % of all calls that come in or define a territory that will be yours to sell.
If you get hurt on the job, he should be on the hook regardless (depending on state law). Keep your own pay records (pay stubs, W2s, etc...). If you are injured on the job file a claim. If they say your employer has not been paying, show your evidence. They'll get it from him and they should cover you (again...depending on the state you live in).
Off the job, is a question of health insurance - nothing to do with workers comp...whole nother discussion!
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