Husky 450 Rancher & Granberg G777

[kirkdb]

That’s very helpful. Yah my next question if you don’t mind:

Is the bar or chain or both narrow kerf? My research indicated that kerf refers to the width of the cutting edge of the chain. But I also read elsewhere that narrow kerf bars bend easier. So that implied the bar and chain are both sized either standard or narrow kerf and pixel is synonymous with narrow kerf.

Is the drive sprocket on the chainsaw also narrow kerf?

Is 050 gauge by definition narrow kerf?

Computer science is leagues easier than chainsaws … just saying!

You’ve been awesomely helpful George. Thank you!

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

Yeah, so, Pixel.... have to admit I'm trying to learn what the hell it is on the fly. No, .050 is not narrow kerf by definition. Just the narrowest rail groove. Oddly, there is no specification offered in chains for kerf. Gauge is the rail groove width and pitch is just chain spacing to match up sprockets to chain. Kerf is the actual width of the teeth, the width of the cut you make. You'd think it would be helpful to compare actual kerf widths but no manufacturer provides that info.

I have an engineering degree, and chainsaws are more complicated than a lot of engineering I did lol. I can't get good info on it, but some forums suggest Pixel is Husqvarna's version of lo pro, just as Stihl calls theirs Picco. Not sure about that. While some people claim lo pro and narrow kerf are the same thing, not always true. There are subtle differences to lo pro sprocket sizing that make it possible but ultimately damaging to run 3/8 lo pro chain on a standard 3/8" drive sprocket and nose sprocket. Narrow kerf sometimes means just a lesser width of teeth on a chain running on a standard drive sprocket, sometimes it means lo pro. Some people say that .325 chain and .325NK chain is run on the same .325 sprocket, but there's damn little clear info provided about it for the 450 Rancher. What makes me suspicious is there are no replacement drive sprockets offered anywhere for the 450 Rancher. There should be if it was a normal .325 sprocket like the 450e, 440, etc, that use bars that can mount on the 450 Rancher just fine. It seems designed exclusively for Pixel bars and chain with no info on whether anything else can be run on it. Maybe normal .325 can, maybe it can't, but Husqvarna sure ain't gonna help you find out. They just want you to run their Pixel line with it. Exasperating approach aimed at the mass consumer market that pro chainsaw users who want to vary their setups would never accept.

 

[J D]

Thread 'Pixel chain and bar?' https://www.arboristsite.com/threads/pixel-chain-and-bar.110418/

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

Thread 'Pixel chain and bar?' https://www.arboristsite.com/threads/pixel-chain-and-bar.110418/

Yeah, saw that, and it brought up as many questions as answers. The "expert" everyone deferred to there operates under the common misconception of many people that all that matters is that the pitch (.325, 3/8) matches the drive sprocket and nose sprocket, that lo pro or narrow kerf designation don't matter. I can assure you that's NOT true with 3/8 lo pro. You have to get a 3/8 lo pro drive sprocket and nose sprocket to match the chain. You can get away with lo pro 3/8 on a regular sprocket and bar for a bit but ultimately you'll ruin your sprockets from spacing mismatch. The "expert" on the thread claims you can't run a Pixel chain on a normal .325 bar because the bar is wider than the chain kerf which is nonsense. When you wear down lo pro chain a good bit it can eventually become the same width as a normal bar and the bar will pinch and not cut. But new chain, no, not the case. Way too much bad info being dispensed in forums because people just seem to love offering authoritative opinions on things they have little direct experience of working with.

The sprocket sizing/spacing of 3/8 lo pro is such that to make your own, you grind down the outer circumference of a .404 sprocket. It has more in common with .404 spacing than 3/8. There is no such thing as .325 lo pro best I can make out, just .325 narrow kerf chain and bars. My impression is that unlike 3/8 and 3/8 lo pro which are incompatible, .325 and .325NK both run fine on a .325 sprocket. There is no special narrow kerf sprocket for .325.

So... my best guess is that for Kirk's solution, the Oregon solid bar and regular 78 drive link .325 chain on it will work fine on the 450 Rancher. The saw appears to have a standard .325 7 tooth sprocket.

 

[J D]

I'll give my 02c... hopefully it brings more answers than questions.
Chain pitch must match the chainsaw drive rim/spur & the bar nose sprocket.
Whilst 3/8 & 3/8 low pro are technically the same pitch, the drive links are significantly different & should generally be considered to be their own individual & incompatible pitches.
Guage (043, 050, 058, 063, etc) is the thickness of the chains drive links & should match the bar groove or excessive wear & poor performance will result.
Kerf refers to the width of the slot cut by the bar/chain. This is the result of cutter design, sharpening, chain wear, & the overall width of the bar/chain.
Terms like "Picco" & "Pixel" are manufacturers designators for their chains with reduced chassis thickness & cutter geometry designed to be lighter & cut a narrower kerf resulting in less load on the power head compared to a regular chain. They are available in 043 & 050 guages & 1/4, 3/8 low pro, & .325 pitches as far as I'm aware. These chains can be freely mixed & matched with bars provided pitch (refer to above re 3/8 & 3/8 low pro) & guage match.
HOWEVER...
Running a narrow kerf chain on a regular bar may result in binding as the chain may not remove enough material for the bar to remain free (especially after being sharpened a few times). For ripping/slabbing this will be less significant than for x-cutting.
Running a regular chain on a NK bar can cause increased bar wear as the wider chain isn't as well supported & will rock more if sharpening isn't even & consistent.
NK chains can have shorter cutters than their regular counterparts giving you fewer sharpens. Due to their lighter construction they will likely suffer worse from contact with objects other than wood.

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

I'll give my 02c... hopefully it brings more answers than questions.

Now that 02c is worth at least a dollar. All good clear info. A basic rule of thumb is run lo pro or narrow kerf chain on a matching lo pro/nk bar. Normal chain on matching normal bar. Aside from the technical reasons, it just makes no sense to ever mix them. The only time I've heard of people using lo pro chain on normal bars is in America where GB lo pro bars are unavailable so anyone milling in lo pro with bars longer than 18" has been forced to use a normal bar with a lo pro nose sprocket fitted on to it. I order my GB lo pro bars from Chainsawbars in England so not a problem.

 

[kirkdb]

I'll give my 02c... hopefully it brings more answers than questions.
Chain pitch must match the chainsaw drive rim/spur & the bar nose sprocket.
Whilst 3/8 & 3/8 low pro are technically the same pitch, the drive links are significantly different & should generally be considered to be their own individual & incompatible pitches.
Guage (043, 050, 058, 063, etc) is the thickness of the chains drive links & should match the bar groove or excessive wear & poor performance will result.
Kerf refers to the width of the slot cut by the bar/chain. This is the result of cutter design, sharpening, chain wear, & the overall width of the bar/chain.
Terms like "Picco" & "Pixel" are manufacturers designators for their chains with reduced chassis thickness & cutter geometry designed to be lighter & cut a narrower kerf resulting in less load on the power head compared to a regular chain. They are available in 043 & 050 guages & 1/4, 3/8 low pro, & .325 pitches as far as I'm aware. These chains can be freely mixed & matched with bars provided pitch (refer to above re 3/8 & 3/8 low pro) & guage match.
HOWEVER...
Running a narrow kerf chain on a regular bar may result in binding as the chain may not remove enough material for the bar to remain free (especially after being sharpened a few times). For ripping/slabbing this will be less significant than for x-cutting.
Running a regular chain on a NK bar can cause increased bar wear as the wider chain isn't as well supported & will rock more if sharpening isn't even & consistent.
NK chains can have shorter cutters than their regular counterparts giving you fewer sharpens. Due to their lighter construction they will likely suffer worse from contact with objects other than wood.

Is it accurate to say that a narrow kerf bar has an overall narrow bar thickness as well as chain thickness? Even though the gauge of the bar is standard (Eg, .050). Also, is it accurate to say that drive sprockets are NOT narrow kerf or low pro by design. In other words, drive sprockets are compatible with both narrow and standard kerf so long as the pitch is the same?

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

Is it accurate to say that a narrow kerf bar has an overall narrow bar thickness as well as chain thickness? Even though the gauge of the bar is standard (Eg, .050). Also, is it accurate to say that drive sprockets are NOT narrow kerf or low pro by design. In other words, drive sprockets are compatible with both narrow and standard kerf so long as the pitch is the same?

It is accurate that narrow kerf/lo pro bar is a thinner bar, while the gauge .050 remains standard. In the case of 3/8 lo pro, the most common standard, it is NOT accurate to say that drive sprockets are NOT lo pro design. Double negative there, so more simply, 3/8 lo pro sprockets are lo pro by design and not compatible with normal 3/8 chain and vice versa. However, to the best of my knowledge, .325 drive sprockets are compatible with both .325NK and normal .325 chain. I think this tends to be the distinction between the terms "narrow kerf" and "lo pro" and why they are not interchangeable terms despite some people thinking they are. Narrow kerf chain usually describes a narrow tooth chain that runs on a standard sprocket, while lo pro chain is a chain that runs on a specifically lo pro sprocket - the drive sprocket comes in a "3/8LP" designation stamped on it or in Stihl's case with Picco they just stamp P-7 on a 7 tooth Picco (lo pro) sprocket.

 

[thenne1713]

I'll give my 02c... hopefully it brings more answers than questions.
Chain pitch must match the chainsaw drive rim/spur & the bar nose sprocket.
Whilst 3/8 & 3/8 low pro are technically the same pitch, the drive links are significantly different & should generally be considered to be their own individual & incompatible pitches.
Guage (043, 050, 058, 063, etc) is the thickness of the chains drive links & should match the bar groove or excessive wear & poor performance will result.
Kerf refers to the width of the slot cut by the bar/chain. This is the result of cutter design, sharpening, chain wear, & the overall width of the bar/chain.
Terms like "Picco" & "Pixel" are manufacturers designators for their chains with reduced chassis thickness & cutter geometry designed to be lighter & cut a narrower kerf resulting in less load on the power head compared to a regular chain. They are available in 043 & 050 guages & 1/4, 3/8 low pro, & .325 pitches as far as I'm aware. These chains can be freely mixed & matched with bars provided pitch (refer to above re 3/8 & 3/8 low pro) & guage match.
HOWEVER...
Running a narrow kerf chain on a regular bar may result in binding as the chain may not remove enough material for the bar to remain free (especially after being sharpened a few times). For ripping/slabbing this will be less significant than for x-cutting.
Running a regular chain on a NK bar can cause increased bar wear as the wider chain isn't as well supported & will rock more if sharpening isn't even & consistent.
NK chains can have shorter cutters than their regular counterparts giving you fewer sharpens. Due to their lighter construction they will likely suffer worse from contact with objects other than wood.

PICCO is STIHL term for LP Low Profile chain

 

[J D]

It is accurate that narrow kerf/lo pro bar is a thinner bar, while the gauge .050 remains standard.

You are associating narrow kerf & low profile, these are distinctly different things & aren't necessarily related (like saying a "bigger" box will always be wider)
Low Profile (Lo Pro) refers to the height geometry of the cutter being lower. A smaller cutter needs less support so the chassis & drive links can be smaller. The pitch (average distance between rivets) is still 3/8" but as the height of the chain is less & the gap between the drive links is greater lo pro requires its own spur/rim (which, as stated is conveniently close to .404)
Narrow kerf (NK) refers to the width geometry of the cutter being less.
As far as I'm aware the only 3/8lp chain considered narrow kerf is 043 guage.
The NK variant of .325 chain is only available in 050 guage.
A narrow kerf bar will usually be .020"-.030" thinner than it's regular counterpart.

 

[J D]

PICCO is STIHL term for LP Low Profile chain

Stihl sells variants of 1/4" chain as Picco also.
However, I should not have inferred that Picco designates narrow kerf as that is not the case & unfortunately Stihls chain naming system doesn't readily translate to generic characteristics

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

You are associating narrow kerf & low profile, these are distinctly different things & aren't necessarily related (like saying a "bigger" box will always be wider)

I put a slash there instead of an “and” in a quick attempt to assure Kirk that both lo pro and narrow kerf bars are thinner than conventional bars while the gauge remains constant. You jumped on that and disregarded every other statement I made about lo pro and narrow kerf being two entirely different things. Appreciate the clear explanation of how each achieves its similar results, but not sure where you think you’re correcting me. You're actually muddying the waters here for any layman by not being clear that both achieve similar narrow kerf cuts through different chain design, and not being clear that both have notably narrower teeth than conventional chain. My GB lo pro 36" bar is 4.37mm while my Rollomatic 42" is 5.67mm. My individual 3/8 lo pro teeth are 3.81mm where my 3/8 teeth are 4.24mm. I'm an engineer and an author so I appreciate precision language, but I also appreciate if you can't use language a layman understands, then explanations aren't very useful.

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

I think Kirk's probably got a huge headache trying to follow any of this lol. I thought about midway through the thread I'd spent more time on the thread than the initial question warranted, but the discussion ended up being very useful for me to finally get a clearer understanding of what "narrow kerf" .325 chain is exactly and what 3/8 lo pro chain is exactly. It can seem like we're nitpicking details with each other about describing things EXACTLY right, but when so many others are sloppy with descriptions and make people believe things that aren't at all true about lo pro or narrow kerf, it's worth getting the language exactly right. I have to admit, I hadn't given much thought to the obvious, that lo pro is called that because it's a lower chain height wise, and that explains to me part of why my milling cuts with it seem so unbelievably smooth. I'd chalked that up to the small teeth, which is part of it, but I also think often so much unevenness in a cut, so much extra kerf width, is a result of chain oscillation as teeth grab side to side. The higher and larger width teeth on a chain, the more it's going to experience side force pulling the chain outward as the leading edge of the teeth grab in the wood, enlarging the cut and sometimes scalloping the wood (especially if there's any slop in your rails). And that sucks up saw power too as you're cutting more wood than you need to.

 

[kirkdb]

Hey now. I hung in there and no resulting head aches or injuries. Prior to posting here, I read through a number of posts and articles from various sites referencing chain terminology, bars, drive sprockets, kerf etc. while many explained the higher level concepts and terminology. None connected the dots between bar, chain, sprocket and manufacturer key words (eg pixel) very well. Toss in kerf and low profile … forget it. This thread became a living education. Now if I can get ups to actually deliver my bar, I could report back. I’m guessing with a standard kerf, my husky 450R is going to be a bit underpowered. However, it will be a good starting point for me to try out milling. What I’ve learned through all this will make me a better consumer as well as a better user down the road. Can’t thank y’all enough.

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

Hey now. I hung in there and no resulting head aches or injuries.

Good to hear. Funny, I wondered why my latest Chainsawbars order hadn’t left the UK yet and saw a note I hadn’t seen noting I bought a couple of small saw lo pro sprockets (for the 455 Rancher) and wondering what I wanted them for. Part of me appreciated they want their customers to buy the right gear, part of me thought “I know what i want, my order is being delayed cause you’re second guessing me?” Lol. But for all my confidence I knew what I needed, I was wrong. Also realized looking up sprockets again for your saw I'm maybe being a bit of a moron. I said no 3/8" rim (or lo pro) sprocket setup was available for the 450 Rancher because all I see advertised is .325 rim sprockets on drums to fit it. But the 450 Rancher uses a standard small spline drum, Oregon 108215X, any 7 tooth small spline rim sprocket should fit it. That Oregon drum is always advertised as a .325 setup, but only because it is sold as a package with a .325 rim sprocket. I checked and people have put 3/8 rims on that drum on small Huskies so putting a 3/8 lo pro rim on it would be fine. Sorry to steer you wrong on that, it was dumb of me to not figure out the drum merely had to fit the saw and replace your spur sprocket drum.
The guy at Chainsawbars told me now I was ordering the wrong bar, I need their model in the K095 mount. I thought my Stihl 12 mm to 8mm adapter would take care of that, but those adapters only work for D mount tails (D009 Husky, D025 Stihl, D176 Echo) on bars it turns out - it's a Stihl 12mm to Echo (D176 mount) 8mm adapter I just assumed would be fine for the Rancher as they're 8mm mount studs too - but the K095 that the smaller Huskies use is a much slimmer tail on the bar which is incompatible - tensioner and oiler won't work. I didn't know they do make GB lo pro bars in a K095 mount. Not bad full price package for a 20" bar - $182 for a 20" solid lo pro bar, two lo pro ripping chains, and the lo pro rim sprocket. Free shipping, no tax. So if you ever switch to a rim sprocket setup by replacing your spur with a Oregon 108215x drum and .325 rim (which will still run all your .325 bars and chains) all you have to do is change out the rim sprocket to the 3/8" lo pro rim to put that lo pro setup on it.

 

[kirkdb]

Yah, I’d be more interested in that once I get a few logs under my belt. Also interested to know what level of improvement people are seeing with this class chainsaw. Eg, faster, smoother, runs cooler etc. Let me know how it all works out with your 455R.

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

Yah, I’d be more interested in that once I get a few logs under my belt. Also interested to know what level of improvement people are seeing with this class chainsaw. Eg, faster, smoother, runs cooler etc. Let me know how it all works out with your 455R.

Canceled my order and abandoning any milling with the 455R. Will put the 20" lo pro setup I have and small log mill back on the 64cc Makita when I have my 87cc Stihls rebuilt for the 36" lo pro setup. Screaming power to spare in both cases then with the respective lo pro setups. Had to tear my Stihls back down to the crankcases when I just figured out after months of work rebuilding them from the ground up (first total chainsaw rebuilds ever) and months more of not getting them to work right that I installed the crankshaft seals wrong on the flywheel sides of both saws. Ugh. Live and learn. Also one of the seals was never going to work right anyway because some aftermarket seals for those saws are sold without a metal rim on the seal and nothing holds them in place. Fun with 40 year old equipment there are no how-to videos on and the service manuals are useless ("install the seal").... Figured this out from a thread last year I just read on more or less same problem with a rebuild of same saw....

 

[kirkdb]

Canceled my order and abandoning any milling with the 455R. Will put the 20" lo pro setup I have and small log mill back on the 64cc Makita when I have my 87cc Stihls rebuilt for the 36" lo pro setup. Screaming power to spare in both cases then with the respective lo pro setups. Had to tear my Stihls back down to the crankcases when I just figured out after months of work rebuilding them from the ground up (first total chainsaw rebuilds ever) and months more of not getting them to work right that I installed the crankshaft seals wrong on the flywheel sides of both saws. Ugh. Live and learn. Also one of the seals was never going to work right anyway because some aftermarket seals for those saws are sold without a metal rim on the seal and nothing holds them in place. Fun with 40 year old equipment there are no how-to videos on and the service manuals are useless ("install the seal").... Figured this out from a thread last year I just read on more or less same problem with a rebuild of same saw....

Nice, I'm sure 87cc with a lo pro will indeed have some power to spare.

Just received my Oregon Power Cut solid bar along with a 78DL ripping chain to replace the factory 80DL X Cut chain. Fits perfectly on the 450 Rancher. Gotta do a little tune up on the carb as last time I was bucking some logs it was slightly 4 stroking while cutting. Funny the high side of the carb was turned out about 3.5 turns when I received the saw (brand new). At close to 10k elevation, that didn't cut it (pun intended). Took a few tries to dial in for this elevation.

Anyhow, will mount the 450R on the mill today and give it a shot ... I'm starting with a log that's in the ballpark of 14-16". About average for what I will want to mill if the saw cooperates.

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

Anyhow, will mount the 450R on the mill today and give it a shot ... I'm starting with a log that's in the ballpark of 14-16". About average for what I will want to mill if the saw cooperates.

Good luck! I see no problem milling that size, shouldn't tax the saw at all til the chain dulls. Dirty bark in Doug Fir is one thing that will dull chains quickly and bandsawers run into problems with hardened pitch pockets making the blades wander, but that's not a chainsaw mill issue. The only concern would be unhardened sap gumming up chains, but I've never heard much about that being a DF issue, more in pine. It it happens, soak the chain in solvent or much better yet, get a $60 ultrasonic cleaner off Amazon and clean your chains in it with Simple Green or Purple Power solution. For sharpening which is everyone's Achilles heel, the Pferd 2 in 1 sharpeners on Amazon for about $40 seem to be the best filing system anyone has come up with yet that people get consistent results with. Tree service guy I get logs from said he couldn't master filing chains til he got the Stihl version of the 2 in 1 (same as the Pferd for $20 more) and now his chains cut so much better. The reference angles on them are for 30 degree chain, but you can put 10 degree markings on them to help keep you aligned at the right angle when filing ripping chain - or just eyeball it and follow the existing angle of the teeth, that's what I do most of the time. Whole key to your system working well with the 450R is keeping those chains sharp as possible and it will mow right through 14-16" Doug Fir.

 

[kirkdb]

OK .... Here is my early report using a Husky 450 Rancher with an Oregon Power Cut 20" Solid bar, along with a 78DL ripping chain on a Grainberg G777 mill.

Chainsaw was a little sluggish through the cut. Started out nice but eventually slowed and would stall if I didn't feather it. Likely could use better oil flow but wasn't bad overall (from a newbies perspective). Saw it no doubt under powered for the size log I was cutting (top cut was about 12-14"). The key here was to go slow and let the saw do the work. Altogether the cut took about 15-20m on a log that was just under 11ft long. Also, looks like I didn't get my brackets on my guide perfectly level to each other. I see a slight twist ... that or my starting cut need practice. OK ... off to mill a slab!!!