Longbar, Skip - tooth Naysayers...

[Vanguard]

Cuttin' cookies isn't a real work
scenario, but maybe a few videos can spark an interest for people into trying something on their own rather than going off of someone else's experiences.

I've recently put an Oregon 25" bar with a .325 nose sprocket to tackle Alder patches. When it comes to Alders, I bore-cut mostly. Using a lightweight saw lets me be more agile and nimble in the bush, and a longer bar allows me a little more distance to hit the 'trigger' on the back cut.

Here are a couple videos... 20" vs. 25" bar. The 20" is running full-comp while the 25" is running full-skip. I've also included a third BONUS video with one of my Mcculloch 10-10A's running a "20 bar to spark more controversy on this 14" diameter Alder being cookied out.

I've heard people say an MS261 can't handle a bar longer than 20", even at 20" for that matter. Well, I'm doing it with success thus far, both sizes, with Alders less than 24". Doug Fir looks to not be an issue as well.

I've heard full-skip isn't worth running unless your bar is at least 28". Well, I'm doing it on a 25" bar just fine... less teeth to sharpen, but plan to compare against full-comp soon.

I've heard a Mcculloch 10-10 can't cut worth a damn having a bar 20" or more. Well, I've done it and then some with no issues.

My MS261 with 25" bar makes 14" Alder cookies around 11 seconds. The 20" bar is about 14 seconds, and my Mcculloch 10-10A with 20" bar comes in around 8 seconds.

Bottom line... get out there and try something on your own, finding what works for you. Don't let those that just read and regurgitate data steer you into a close-minded realm. Keep in mind, cookies are only benchmarks... the job validates what you are trying to accomplish with what you are running on your saw.

Also, using longer bars requires superb filing. Even smaller bars with a higher cc saw won't cut worth a damn if your filing isn't in check.

On a side-note... the videos with 20" bar on both my Stihl and Mcculloch have rakers set for softer wood, so minus <1 second for handicap. To drag this out further, the 25" bar is running factory grind with untouched rakers... it will cut faster once I put a scrub on the chain with a half stroke on the rakers. The Stihl with 20" bar still gets beat here either way.

 

[huskihl]

I believe they’re mostly referring to 3/8, rather than .325 chain when talking about 32-36+” bars. With softer wood in that size range it would make sense that .325 might benefit from skip to allow more room to carry chips

 

[Vanguard]

I believe they’re mostly referring to 3/8, rather than .325 chain when talking about 32-36+” bars. With softer wood in that size range it would make sense that .325 might benefit from skip to allow more room to carry chips

Generally 3/8 chain yes, but I've been told, heard, and seen for .325 plenty of times as well. Whole point of post is to figure it out on your own through experience, not always do what the narrow path is when being told.

Advice by others is a generally a starting point for most... but in the end, a person has to go do it to see for themselves.

 

[Philbert]

I've heard full-skip isn't worth running unless your bar is at least 28". Well, I'm doing it on a 25" bar just fine...

Full skip is usually used on longer bars for a few reasons:

1. The saw does not have enough power to pull the chain if it is fully buried in the wood when all of the teeth are engaged (e.g. not talking about cutting a 3" limb with a 25" bar). You are only pulling 2/3 the number of cutters.

2. In larger wood (again 25"+ diameter) the space between cutters helps to clear chips: this is not usually an issue with smaller diameter logs and full comp chain.

3. Full skip provides a rougher, bouncier cut on small diameter limbs, due to the spaces in between cutters. Not as noticable on larger diameter logs. This is especially noticable on cheap pole saws that provide skip tooth, 3/8" low profile ('Picco') chain on their longer (10" - 14") bars. Low kickback chain was originally invented to fill in these spaces, when cutting smaller diameter limbs, to provide a smoother cut: the reduced kickback tendency was an unintended side benefit.

I believe they’re mostly referring to 3/8, rather than .325 chain when talking about 32-36+” bars.

.325 chain has a lighter 'chassis' (thickness of tie straps, diameter of rivets, etc.), so is not recommended on longer bars, due to risk of breakage. Oregon does not recommend it on saws over 58cc, or bars longer than 20".

Advice by others is a generally a starting point for most... but in the end, a person has to go do it to see for themselves.

If you find things that work well for you, and the type of cutting you do, it can be helpful to explore them. Sometimes different saws, different wood, different cutting conditions, different cutting tasks, etc., make . . . well, a difference!

Philbert

 

[Vanguard]

Full skip is usually used on longer bars for a few reasons:

1. The saw does not have enough power to pull the chain if it is fully buried in the wood when all of the teeth are engaged (e.g. not talking about cutting a 3" limb with a 25" bar). You are only pulling 2/3 the number of cutters.

2. In larger wood (again 25"+ diameter) the space between cutters helps to clear chips: this is not usually an issue with smaller diameter logs and full comp chain.

3. Full skip provides a rougher, bouncier cut on small diameter limbs, due to the spaces in between cutters. Not as noticable on larger diameter logs. This is especially noticable on cheap pole saws that provide skip tooth, 3/8" low profile ('Picco') chain on their longer (10" - 14") bars. Low kickback chain was originally invented to fill in these spaces, when cutting smaller diameter limbs, to provide a smoother cut: the reduced kickback tendency was an unintended side benefit.


.325 chain has a lighter 'chassis' (thickness of tie straps, diameter of rivets, etc.), so is not recommended on longer bars, due to risk of breakage. Oregon does not recommend it on saws over 58cc, or bars longer than 20".


If you find things that work well for you, and the type of cutting you do, it can be helpful to explore them. Sometimes different saws, different wood, different cutting conditions, different cutting tasks, etc., make . . . well, a difference!

Philbert

Thanks... I've already experienced and am aware of everything you pointed out. Seen and done myself coming from multi generation of loggers and big timber construction. This also includes failures/mistakes in order for better gains in the end, pushing the limits.

Point of post was to show video proof things can be done even though the 'Naysayers' say it ain't so. It was for those folks that want to run a longer bar or a full-skip chain on something shorter... but get discouraged by those people that actually don't do... only regurgitate what recommendations are.

One thing I've learned is professional work doesn't always follow recommendations, trying to push limits of tools and/or equipment so long as it's still safe. Sometimes the job requires extreme measures for better production or just to complete a unique task, requiring something outside of the box, while still being safe.

I've found recommendations are more for those that don't do it day in and day out or a disclaimer from companies and/or shops to CYA perhaps as well, ie. selling only safety chains with a saw.

The main saw shop I go to has been telling Stihl to make a 24" .325 bar for quite some time, but they still refuse. So they modified a 3/8 sprocket Oregon bar into a .325 for my MS261.

 

[Philbert]

I have always been happy with running .325 on 50cc saws. A lot of guys don't think that it is 'real' chain (?) and convert their MS260 class saws to 3/8 pitch. That saw seems to work pretty well with either set up, so whatever makes folks happy. My Husqvarna 353 came with .325 Narrow Kerf chain that I run on a 16" and 20" bar, which I have been happy with, especially with the newer, stiffer, Oregon NK bars.

Thought about running skip tooth on longer bars, but usually have a larger saw available for 25" to 32" bars and use that.

Philbert

 

[bwalker]

Is alder pretty soft?

 

[Vanguard]

Is alder pretty soft?

It is around Doug Fir values I believe, depending on species of Alder I think. We call it a soft hardwood here... oxymoron, I know.

Alder isn't as soft as Poplar though in values I believe. Poplar feels noticeably softer... reason my rakers were down, cutting Poplar awhile ago.

 

[bwalker]

It is around Doug Fir values I believe, depending on species of Alder I think. We call it a soft hardwood here... oxymoron, I know.

Alder isn't as soft as Poplar though in values I believe. Poplar feels noticeably softer... reason my rakers were down, cutting Poplar awhile ago.

The reason I ask is to me both the 20 and 25 looked painfully slow in such soft wood, but that's just my opinion.
I do know my old muffler modded only MS260 cut much faster with a 16" bar and 3/8 in aspen, which is a bit softer than Douglas Fir.

 

[Skeans]

The reason I ask is to me both the 20 and 25 looked painfully slow in such soft wood, but that's just my opinion.
I do know my old muffler modded only MS260 cut much faster with a 16" bar and 3/8 in aspen, which is a bit softer than Douglas Fir.

Red alder is a funny hardwood it’s soft and brittle, not as hard as third growth Doug which isn’t near as hard as second growth Doug Fir.


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[bwalker]

Red alder is a funny hardwood it’s soft and brittle, not as hard as third growth Doug which isn’t near as hard as second growth Doug Fir.


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I'm from the upper midwest, but now live in Montana. To me 2nd growth Doug Fir is soft, but gummy in that the cut plugs with chips easier than something like Red Oak.
I should note that most of the Fir I am cutting is at high elevation, dead and in dry country compared to coastal areas.Lodgepole in comparison is softer, but the cheap clear much easier.

 

[Vanguard]

I'm from the upper midwest, but now live in Montana. To me 2nd growth Doug Fir is soft, but gummy in that the cut plugs with chips easier than something like Red Oak.
I should note that most of the Fir I am cutting is at high elevation, dead and in dry country compared to coastal areas.Lodgepole in comparison is softer, but the cheap clear much easier.

Funny you mention lodgepole pine... softer than Alder for sure. Here's a YouTube video of MS261 with 20" bar and a guy dogging in with some force, similar diameter of Alder in my vids.

Times are similar with my 20" bar with not dogging in and any force. I'd shave a second or two if I dogged in with force but wanted to try slight even pressure on all three vids, making things even as possible.

 

[Vanguard]

Red alder is a funny hardwood it’s soft and brittle, not as hard as third growth Doug which isn’t near as hard as second growth Doug Fir.


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And easy to barber chair... reason I bore-cut mostly since Alders seem to be most leaners to get more sun.

 

[bwalker]

And easy to barber chair... reason I bore-cut mostly since Alders seem to be most leaners to get more sun.

Here is what I expect with a 50cc muffler mod only saw in soft wood. The bar is 16", the wood is bone dry spruce. I can't say for certain but I believe the chain is either 3/8 stihl or 3/8 Oregon LG. It could be Stihl .325, but I don't think so. Regardless it was new chain off the roll but touched up with a round file the way I like.
https://youtube.com/shorts/uK-xqsBuA1Y?feature=share

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

OP, I can’t get your videos to work, I think you need to upload them via YouTube?

The thing I have found to make the biggest difference to how well a saw pulls any given bar is the hook angle, depth gauge height and wood species.

 

[Maintenance supervisor]

Who ever said running a 10-10 with a 20" bar isn't worth a dam obviously never ran a 10-10.

 

[Skeans]

And easy to barber chair... reason I bore-cut mostly since Alders seem to be most leaners to get more sun.

All the time I’ve cut timber I’ve hardly ever bore cut anything even alder I’m more likely to do something like a coos bay style back cut vs boring in.


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[Vanguard]

OP, I can’t get your videos to work, I think you need to upload them via YouTube?

The thing I have found to make the biggest difference to how well a saw pulls any given bar is the hook angle, depth gauge height and wood species.

If you tap video title, it should prompt for you to open and/or download.

 

[Vanguard]

Who ever said running a 10-10 with a 20" bar isn't worth a dam obviously never ran a 10-10.

Probably the same people who think a 20" bar on an MS261 is ludicrous, lol.