Milling with Stihl MS780

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

I've been milling large guanacaste slabs in southern Mexico for awhile, which is one of those big mimosa tropical shade trees that monkeypod is part of the family of as well. We started with a completely unreliable 045 Super I got with a bad ignition, upgraded a little with an 056 Super with a good ignition, and then my partner got tired of both and bought a new MS660 because they were such a screaming deal with the devalued peso. We were running a 42" bar which still ran really slow with the 660, even when only doing 25-28" cuts, though I'll admit by that point the ripping chain might not have been what it originally was and our sharpening wasn't always what it could have been either. Also guanacaste has a grain that goes in all different directions and cuts tend to close up and bind the saw a lot.
I've relocated up to San Antonio and wanted to start milling mesquite, and looked around at a few options including an 084 but given my old saw experience and associated parts nightmares, I passed on it and finally got a chance to get what I'd been dreaming of in Mexico, the Stihl MS780 which seems to be the Second/Third World version of the MS880. In all the talks I've seen on here about different model Stihls from outside the US, there's mainly talk about ones available in South America and made in Brazil. Hardly anyone knows what's available on their doorstep in Mexico. I assumed the models were Brazilian ones, but everything on them says Made in Germany. They're from genuine Stihl dealers too, not counterfeits. The crazy thing is I picked up the MS780 with 36" Duromatic bar and chain for about $950 US brand new from a dealer in Mexico City. I shipped it to San Miguel de Allende and had a friend pick it up on his way up to Texas for a trade show and deliver it to me.
I bought a hyperskip chain for the 36" bar and launched into some 20-24" diameter mesquite and was just stunned at the speed I mowed through it. For all the talk of rougher cut of skip chains and particularly hyperskip, I was more than pleased with the results given the speed. It's apples and oranges to what I was doing in Mexico - different wood (though mesquite is harder than guanacaste), 122cc versus 91cc, different bar, and hyperskip vs full skip, but I'm assuming the monster grunt of the 780 is what makes the bulk of the difference. It's a beast to handle weight wise solo, lifting it in place and setting it down again repeatedly when doing short pieces, but I'm 6'7" so it kinda suits me. (Starting this thing even with the decompression valve activated is a two handed affair, though, they're not for the faint of heart.) I kept thinking I might want to go the bandsaw mill route due to the slowness of chainsaw milling, but this rig changed my mind, and I love being able to mill things in place anywhere with minimal setup. (see replies below for clarification on this suiting my needs best, not equating it to a bandsaw mill.) Everyone's got their opinion on chain and I'd have to compare performance of hyperskip to full comp to see the difference on this saw, but have to say I'm a big fan of the hyperskip so far for bars 36" and up. It's early days yet, I have a lot more testing on a lot of different wood to do with this, but mostly amazed I got the mother of all milling saws (short of the old 090) for such an incredible price and that milling has become fun again.

 

[BobL]

I kept thinking I might want to go the bandsaw mill route due to the slowness of chainsaw milling, but this rig changed my mind, and I love being able to mill things in place anywhere with minimal setup. So moral of the story is, if you're doing anything more than softwoods, I'd suggest forgetting anything under 100cc. They'll get the job done, but the ease which the 780/880 does it is just incomparable.

Welcome to the forums George and that does look like a nice saw you have there.

I'm not surprised that your mill went through that log easily as it doesn't seem all that solid on the photos? Even a small number of old cracks can develop a larger area of slightly spongier wood around the cracks which makes things a lot easier.

I've milled with a 660 and 880 in some pretty hard woods and have to say I was struggling to see much of a difference in speeds in narrow wood unless the rakers on the 880 chain were dropped right down. The narrower the wood the more advantage greater chain speed on saws like the 660 become. The fastest milling reported on this forum in up to 24" softwood wood (that's as big as lies logs got) has been with a 660 using lopro chain with raker angles of 9.5º. The AS member (Mtngun) concerned cut all the wood for his barn with this setup including all the cladding boards. I should also add this milling was also done at altitude where saws have less power.
Here is photo of his barn I managed to save before ether site images were lost.


BTW A 880 in a BSM does not even come close to a decent bandsaw mill. Once we got the BSM at the tree loppers yard 95+% of the milling gets done with that. Only logs greater than 16' long and wider than 35" get tackled with a CSM. I still prefer to uses a CSM rather than the BSM.

If you still have your old 660 chain post a close up side on picture of a cutter or two and I might be able to diagnose the sharpening problems

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

If you still have your old 660 chain post a close up side on picture of a cutter or two and I might be able to diagnose the sharpening problems

I will next trip down to Mexico, though most of the problem is it got out of my hands into the hands of others and I don't know what they did to it. Haven't milled down there for awhile so haven't looked at it for a long time. I know the wood pictured is easy going due to the cracks and rot, but I did a whole lot more of stuff a lot more solid, and it went really well through all of it. And I know bandsaw mills are a big upgrade in speed and precision, just couldn't justify one for my artisan furniture making needs. But I'm mostly interested in salvaging downed trees wherever they may be and minimizing gear involved, and the portability of a big Stihl and an Alaskan mill works perfect for me. Plus in Mexico the whole idea was to get giant slabs which only a chainsaw mill would work for, though we never did get a bar and mill big enough to do the size slabs I wanted to. We may run the 660 and the 056 Super together on a double ended Granberg someday, but as I'm mostly gone from there now and even salvaging dead trees is a headache when it comes to legality - the moment any cop there sees you transporting wood of any sort, they'll pull you over and shake you down and/or jail you - I'm not sure I'll bother investing in anything more for there. I've got a 21" Duromatic with some new Woodland Pro full comp chain I haven't run yet, I was going to resaw a piece that ended up too small for a mantel, that's a really dense solid piece of mesquite so will be interesting to see how it goes in that. I should have limited my opinions to the 880 in wider wood, not suggested it would be superior in any size hard wood. I would expect a 660 with a lopro chain to do just as good or better in narrow wood. It always seemed to me that the closer you could get to a bandsaw cut in a chainsaw by reducing chain width, the easier it was going to be. I would just say in wide logs with a lot of bar contact is where the 880 tends to shine more. I thought a lot would be lost by moving up to .404/.063 but the extra grunt more than makes up for the big bar/chains. Where I think the extra hp really makes a difference is in tricky wood that wants to bind on you. We have a 1.5hp DeWalt DW746 table saw in Mexico with thin kerf blades that struggles so much with guanacaste because of the binding from cuts closing up, and we got a big old school homemade Mexican 5hp table saw with big thick 12 and 14" saw blades on it and the torque of that just plows right through slabs.

 

[BobL]

We may run the 660 and the 056 Super together on a double ended Granberg someday,

I don't think this is a good idea. On a double ended mill the saws can be quite different in size/ccs but they should have similar peaks in their power and torque V RPMs curves.
If you run the set up to favour the 056, given it develops its max power and torque peaks at much lower RPMs than a 660, the 660 wont contribute much to the process.
If you run the set up to favour the 660, the much higher chain speed of the 660 may even damage the 056.
If the setup is somewhere between the two saws neither will be performing close to their optimum.

I would just say in wide logs with a lot of bar contact is where the 880 tends to shine more. I thought a lot would be lost by moving up to .404/.063 but the extra grunt more than makes up for the big bar/chains. Where I think the extra hp really makes a difference is in tricky wood that wants to bind on you.

Another reason 404 chain works so well in larger wood is that there are fewer cutters and it can also carry more sawdust. This is really important in wider cuts.

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

I knew they were only 4-5 cc different, 87 vs 91.6, but I didn't realize how different the power/torque vs RPM were. My partner mainly was interested in the dual approach, I always just wanted to get the 780/880 and have the greater versatility of a standard big bar vs a double ended. After reading up on the main idea behind hyperskip being dust ejection, as it was designed for Lucas Mills that didn't lack for horsepower, a lot of the slowness we were encountering milling guanacaste with a MS660 and .375 chain made sense. Any kind of cutting blade stops working if it gets clogged with sawdust. I encounter it all the time trimming edges on thick slabs with a jigsaw with a 7" wood cutting blade. It doesn't bog down, just stops cutting til I back it out.

 

[BobL]

Provided a saw has enough power the other way to clear more sawdust is, to use a higher chain speed using a saw with a power curve peaking at a higher RPM like the 660, or going to a greater sprocket pin count. HD production/milling sprockets max out at 8 pin. There are higher pin counts available but they are really for racing saws so not really for hard grind milling. Sawdust clearance is what will ultimately stop even a 090 especially if the rakers are dramatically lowered.

 

[rarefish383]

Welcome to the site George.

Bob, I was thinking of Mtngun's build of that barn a week or so ago and sent him a message. He replied that he was well, but not doing much milling anymore, Joe.

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

Well now I just saw the new lopro bars GB is making and I'm almost second guessing myself about the 780 for my purposes. It should probably be down in Mexico doing the big slabbing of guanacaste and my partner's 660 should be up here with me with lopro doing mesquite. (I did see your comment wondering about chain stretch on the long bars, Bob. I'm really not sure I'd want to use lopro on a 42 or 48 bar, but who knows.) Interesting how there suddenly seem to be a bunch of chain developments lately for milling, there must be more interest in milling than ever before pushing the innovations. I mean, all the mad scientists on forums like this have figured out a lot of these things for awhile but it being worth the while of manufacturers to market these things hasn't seemed commercially viable til lately.

 

[BobL]

Well now I just saw the new lopro bars GB is making and I'm almost second guessing myself about the 780 for my purposes. It should probably be down in Mexico doing the big slabbing of guanacaste and my partner's 660 should be up here with me with lopro doing mesquite. (I did see your comment wondering about chain stretch on the long bars, Bob. I'm really not sure I'd want to use lopro on a 42 or 48 bar, but who knows.).

I'll let someone else give Lopro a try with big bars. I see enough Lopro strechting on my 441 with the 25" bar and regular 3/8 on an 880 in our hardwoods to make me nervous about using Loprp on a bigger saw with a longer bar.

 

[Rosss]

"I passed on it and finally got a chance to get what I'd been dreaming of in Mexico, the Stihl MS780 which seems to be the Second/Third World version of the MS880. In all the talks I've seen on here about different model Stihls from outside the US, there's mainly talk about ones available in South America and made in Brazil. Hardly anyone knows what's available on their doorstep in Mexico. I assumed the models were Brazilian ones, but everything on them says Made in Germany. They're from genuine Stihl dealers too, not counterfeits. The crazy thing is I picked up the MS780 with 36" Duromatic bar and chain for about $950 US brand new from a dealer in Mexico City."

Any idea if a Husqvarna 3120 is available in Mexico at a discount to north of the border pricing?

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

"Any idea if a Husqvarna 3120 is available in Mexico at a discount to north of the border pricing?"

I bought a 372XP on Mercado Libre in Mexico once, the Latin American Ebay, and was sent some Chinese piece of junk that didn't even pretend to be a Husqvarna. Got my money back at least on that one surprisingly. Husqvarna Mexico doesn't sell a 3120 or equivalent, so there aren't any legit dealers to buy one from.

 

[BobL]

It's easy to see what is available internationally via the Stihl international website and switching to the relevant countries.
The Mexican forestry saws are at http://www.stihl.com.mx/productos/motosierras-para-silvicultura-servicio-arboleda-gruesa-madera-dura
I just checked and see the 780 is no longer available from Stihl in Brazil

The "Made in Germany" stamp on castings does not mean much as stuff can be made anywhere these days.
My understanding is that Stihl sold much of their old casting gear for the "070/090" and "07x" series to their overseas subsidiaries and they are using them as is.

It would be interesting to know the warranty implications of buying and importing a saw like a 780, somehow I doubt it would be supported outside the country of origin. In Australia the warranty applies only to the original owner. I used this as a strong bargaining point when I bought my 6 month old, never used, 880.

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

I assumed the warranty was worthless. I was used to bringing American purchases into Mexico for a decade, knowing the warranty would never do me any good once I had it down there. And now I'm starting to bring things from Mexico to the US, and assuming the same. Just milled with the 21" bar for the first time today, a 12-14" log about 8' long. Thought it was a different type of mesquite but doesn't appear to be mesquite at all. Not sure what it is. I completely see what you mean about small logs, Bob. I assumed nothing could bog down the 880 with a 21" bar, but a full comp ripping chain pushed too fast (I had a neighbor helping who had never milled before) definitely bogged down at times. It also seemed to be spewing out a lot more sawdust than I noticed it doing with the hyperskip bar and the mesquite, but that's partly because it was much thicker sawdust from a different wood. Clearly would have been better off with high revs and a lopro chain. Seems like I went just as fast through a lot of the notably wider and harder mesquite with the 36" bar and hyperskip than I did through this little log with 21" bar and brand new full comp. Don't get me wrong, it was still plenty fast enough, just thought it would be faster all things considered. But I gather that's what you were trying to school me on in the first place, Bob, was that there were no added benefits to the lower RPM high horsepower grunt of the 880 in small logs (at least not with .404 chain), just in big ones.

 

[hseII]

Wonder what it cost to get a MS780 from Mexico?...

 

[BobL]

I assumed nothing could bog down the 880 with a 21" bar, but a full comp ripping chain pushed too fast (I had a neighbor helping who had never milled before) definitely bogged down at times. It also seemed to be spewing out a lot more sawdust . . . . .

If a saw is making dust and not chips with a 21" bar the rakers sound like they are just too high. It should be fair spewing out chips like there's no tomorrow.
How old/worn is the chain?

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

If a saw is making dust and not chips with a 21" bar the rakers sound like they are just too high. It should be fair spewing out chips like there's no tomorrow.
How old/worn is the chain?

Sorry, I meant chips not sawdust. The mesquite was far more sawdust-like with the hyperskip chain (but still chippier than sawdust). But with the wood I did today with the 21" bar it was definitely spewing out chips like no tomorrow.

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

Wonder what it cost to get a MS780 from Mexico?...

Well, in my case free, but not sure how doable it is for the average person without a connection in Mexico. For countries that share a border and NAFTA, shipping parcels between the two countries is hopelessly expensive and complicated, and not many businesses in either country will ship to the other.

 

[hseII]

Well, in my case free, but not sure how doable it is for the average person without a connection in Mexico. For countries that share a border and NAFTA, shipping parcels between the two countries is hopelessly expensive and complicated, and not many businesses in either country will ship to the other.

So you don’t want to be the Hispanic @RobinWood?

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

So you don’t want to be the Hispanic @RobinWood?

Lol - it would be hard to pull off because of being a gringo. I thought about how I could get more of them, and I assume I can get the dealer to ship to a Fed Ex facility for me to pick it up in one of the border towns on the Mexican side, and then it's just a matter of driving from San Antonio across the border and not getting any grief from US Customs coming back in. Might try it sooner or later to pick up a 660 new, but as that would approach $750 to buy and ship it to the border, plus the cost and hassle of going to get it, it's really only the MS780 that's worth the savings.