Need Help With Wood Furnace/Heat

[Ohio Dave]

Ok, so I have researched to the point my head hurts and need some input so I don't freeze this Winter. For the last 5 winters I have heated my home with an old Cleveland Bronback wood furnace/stove. It had no secondary burn and the burn chamber was close to 4cubic feet, about 3.7. My house is only about 900 square feet not counting the full basement(not finished but a good dry basement) and is well insulated. The old wood furnace (located in the basement) was more of a stove with a cabinet around it that drew the cold air in around the burn chamber that was then pushed through the main hot air duct. My flue is an outside masonry chimney with an 7"x7" flue. I have only hat to clean the flue once in 5 years and that was this year so I have not had a creosote problem. The furnace had only one manually operated damper that brought air in under the fire. I would get home in the evening fire it up getter going and it would bring the temp up in the house on a cold day, say zero or below from around 55 to 70 degrees in about 2 hours or less. I always let the fan that circulates the air from the furnace run continuously. I would load it up dampen it down and it would be 70 - 72 degrees when I got up the next morning 5 0r 6 hours latter. Normally I would have some coals left when I got up. I would not start a new fire until I got home that night. If I ran the thing continuously it would cook me out. Couple times I did what I call over stoking and had to open some windows in the middle of Winter. I do have a fuel oil furnace but have only used it to use up some of the heating oil or make sure it still worked for emergencies. I have gotten pretty good at running it with outside temps from 45 to -25 degrees. But it is worn out and needs replaced after about 35 years.
I have looked at every wood furnace on the market that I can find and they all seem larger than what I had. I looked at the furnaces with secondary burn but they are expensive and it seems like everything has to be perfect or they wont draft and this has to be set just so or it won't work and so on. Like the flue has to be 6" or else and I cant fit a insulated 5.5 or 6" liner down my flue. So I have been looking at non-high efficiency wood furnaces. I have about 3 to 4 years of wood cut and split so that is not an issue. I also thought about using a stove but I don't think I can get the heat moved around to the house and the house heated up in the two hours before I go to bed. I never left the old wood furnace burning if I was not home. Any ideas would be much appreciated. I don't have computer access at home so I have to check back in when I can get on line.



Dave

 

[brenndatomu]

Howdy Dave! Well, I tried to reply to one of the other 5 versions of this thread, but someone must have erased it in between the time I started writing and when I hit the "post reply" button, DAGGUMMIT! The ole AS site has been a little screwy here lately, hopefully they get 'er ironed out soon. Anyways, wood furnace advise is what you require you say?! Things get a bit slow around here in the summer (read: boring) a good "best furnace" pizzin contest should liven things up!

Well, from what you describe, I'd tell you to look at an Englander 28-3500 furnace. They are priced fairly, not too big, simple, and the people that have them seem to really like 'em. There are quite a few of them out there too, so if you were interested in saving a buck, it is pretty easy to find them on CL (and others) in the cooler parts of the year. If you run an ad that your are looking for one, you may be able to score a great deal on one right now. By your picture (that is a really unique furnace BTW, I have never seen anything quite like it) the Englander should be a pretty easy swap/install too

 

[stihly dan]

900 sq ft is pretty small. I don't know of a furnace that would not blow you out of the house. A nice secondary stove down there that you fire while not at home would work really well. Plus no huge temp swings, nice even heat.

 

[alleyyooper]

I have a England 28 3500, best wood burner I have ever had the pleasure of tossing chunks of wood it and My family was burning wood for heat when I was born and didn't stop till dad passed in 2005 so have seen many a stove and furnace.
I bought mine at Home Depot and got a 10% veterans discount and free home delivery. I could have gotten the same furnace from Lowes but they wanted $50.00 to delivery to my home.

I replaced a old huge southernaire furnace that was at least 29 years old as it what in the home when I bought it. In it's first year we set all kinds of cold day records yet I burned 1/3 less wood than with the old furnace. I can fill it up to the top in the morning and it can reach a outside spring or fall temp of 45F to 50F and it doesn't run us out of the house or make us want to open windows. It once closed tight will just sort of smolder away for 12 to 14 hours. Open it up with a full load of wood and the house will stay a toasty 75 to 80 F all day and all night long wind 30 below wind chills out side.

Two suggestions if you buy a new one fire it up outside to burn off all the MFG oils and stuff. I did and so glad I did as my yard stunk of burnt paint and oil for about two days.

Also there is a plate in the top that slides. It has a guide on each side to hope fully keep it in place. I had problems with it getting lifted when I was chucking it full and then as the fire burnt down it would fall and be at the bottom of the fire box the next time I went to fill it. Is a real bear to get back in place when hot. During the summer I took it to the shop and cut 4 angle iron pieces and welded them so I had 3 guides per side. I drilled out the center one so I could even place a lock bracket on it but since I never had a problem last winter I never did put any sort of lock on it.
I put a switch up to plug the fan into so I didn't have the fan blowing hot air on warm days when it wasn't needed.

It is in my basement. I do wish I had made a stand for it as I think it sets rather low. Can be made this summer. when I remove the ashes they are as fine as baking flower too.

Al

 

[Ohio Dave]

Brenndatomu, I think that was operator error on my part. I kept getting an error and trying again. The Englander was one of the ones I had looked at and even thought I could add bricks to make the chamber smaller. I have thought about what Stihly Dan recommended too. Do you guys generally leave a fire going when no one is home? I get the idea a lot of people do from reading the forum but this seems like it could be dangerous what does everyone think of the potential fire hazard? I worry about burning the house down. Am I being overly cautious?

 

[A.S.Woodchucker]

we run a fire 24/7 when is cold out, so does everyone that I know that burns wood!

 

[brenndatomu]

we run a fire 24/7 when is cold out, so does everyone that I know that burns wood!

+1 ^ ^ ^. If you do the install as per manufacturer and NFPA recommendations, and use good solid burning practices, running a wood burner is about as safe as any other heating methods (how many time have you seen houses heated with gas blown to smithereens on the evening news, me, quite a few times!) especially once you get to know your stove and any quirks it may have.

The Englander was one of the ones I had looked at and even thought I could add bricks to make the chamber smaller.

What you mentioned about making the firebox smaller by stacking in more bricks...that works, I have done that. I was (am) very pleased with how well that worked actually...

 

[NSMaple1]

Brenndatomu, I think that was operator error on my part. I kept getting an error and trying again. The Englander was one of the ones I had looked at and even thought I could add bricks to make the chamber smaller. I have thought about what Stihly Dan recommended too. Do you guys generally leave a fire going when no one is home? I get the idea a lot of people do from reading the forum but this seems like it could be dangerous what does everyone think of the potential fire hazard? I worry about burning the house down. Am I being overly cautious?

I think the only way to avoid burning when nobody is home, and not have either the house cool off or your other heat source kick in, is to invest in a boiler and storage. I only burn about 6 hours a day with mine, storage does the heating the rest of the 24 hours. But that is likely way more than you want to get into doing.

Might as well count sleeping time too if thinking of that aspect. At least when nobody is home, they are out of harms way. That doesn't leave much 'safe burning time'.

 

[brenndatomu]

It once closed tight will just sort of smolder away for 12 to 14 hours.

Clean the chimney much?

 

[zogger]

Brenndatomu, I think that was operator error on my part. I kept getting an error and trying again. The Englander was one of the ones I had looked at and even thought I could add bricks to make the chamber smaller. I have thought about what Stihly Dan recommended too. Do you guys generally leave a fire going when no one is home? I get the idea a lot of people do from reading the forum but this seems like it could be dangerous what does everyone think of the potential fire hazard? I worry about burning the house down. Am I being overly cautious?

It is either safe to burn or not. Burn during the day at work, burn at night while asleep. I wouldn't worry about it, conventional furnaces could screw up, so, not seeing any big difference. I mean, you want to keep your house above freezing/warm, you'll have to burn during the day.

Me, personally, I don't want an overly complicated heater that has all sorts of controls and electric gizmos, etc, I want to load and forget about it. And seeing as how those sorts are about to be taken off the market, if you want one, get it now.

 

[alleyyooper]

Nope don't have to clean the chimney much just 3 times in the two heating seasons I have used it. I burn well seasoned Ash.
I also burn 24/7 Keep the area around the furnace clean or bark saw dust and other flammable stuff and keep the chimney in good condition and I see no problem. Mine also lets me know when the chimney needs cleaning as it will smoke back in the house when the fuel door is opened.

Al

 

[Ohio Dave]

First thanks for the info it's helping a bunch. Ok, I have an idea about the furnace what are some good stoves that I can look at and then decide which way I want to go? I was told by a furnace guy that it would take about a 40,000 btu gas furnace to heat my home so do I need a stove rated smaller, bigger or the same? I realize there are many variables as far as the wood to be used but is there any rule of thumb?

 

[brenndatomu]

It is hard to compare wood heat to fossil fuel burners due to the fact that wood heat is constant vs the cyclical operation of a regular furnace. I would still error on the large side with a wood stove...you can always build a small fire in a large stove, but the other way around doesn't work out so well.
The Englander NC30 is a well liked stove by many, lotta stove for the money too. Also, Drolet is a good brand for the money...I assume you are in Ohio, watch Menards sales, they practically give away stoves once in while. BTW, the Massillon Menards is showing a clearance on an in stock (display?) Drolet Myriad stove right now...$709, very good deal on a good stove

 

[brenndatomu]

One thing to keep in mind is that heating the whole house with a stove in the basement, is that stoves are room heaters...in other words, they heat the space they are in the best. If the basement is unfinished, the foundation walls and floor will act like a big heat sink. People have spotty results with the whole basement stove thing. If you go big on the stove, you probably can make it work with the smaller house, as long as you can get the heat to circulate upstairs, that was the problem I had when I tried it, getting air to circulate, hot as heck in the basement, cool upstairs! Don't get me wrong, we didn't freeze, but the furnace setup is MUCH better for us

 

[flotek]

I had a Englander furnace for 5 years
To heat my 2,000 sq ft house . I have all EPA stuff now and would not care to go back to manual style non EPA units ***However I will say the Englander was built like a tank and definitely did what it was designed to do. . Yes it burned a bit dirty and used more wood than other modern units. .. But it threw a ton of heat, cheap to buy , it was safe .and kept the family toasty warm in the coldest record temperatures .

 

[Ohio Dave]

That seems to be my biggest concern, moving the heat around. The furnaces seem too large but move heat around really well where the stoves are better sized but don't. Then you look at the EPA furnaces and stoves and it seems everything has to be just right to get them to work. If the flu isn't the correct size you have to install a liner. If you install a liner it should be insulated. Then it won't fit down the flue so you have to put up a new stack. Next thing you know you spent all your money and then some. I guess life is always full of trade offs you just have to decide which ones are are willing to live with.

That is why all the info you guys share is so important it helps with ideas and decisions

 

[alleyyooper]

With the England 28 3500 you can duct the heat up stairs if you find that the hot air rises doesn't work.
I had also looked at the shelter furnace at Manerds. but didn't like their policy on delivery and of Course no Veterans discount on the price.

Al

 

[brenndatomu]

That seems to be my biggest concern, moving the heat around. The furnaces seem too large but move heat around really well where the stoves are better sized but don't. Then you look at the EPA furnaces and stoves and it seems everything has to be just right to get them to work. If the flu isn't the correct size you have to install a liner. If you install a liner it should be insulated. Then it won't fit down the flue so you have to put up a new stack. Next thing you know you spent all your money and then some. I guess life is always full of trade offs you just have to decide which ones are are willing to live with.

That is why all the info you guys share is so important it helps with ideas and decisions

Yeah, you are correct, an EPA firebox, whether it is a stove or a furnace will be a bit more finicky about draft than a non EPA. That's why the 28-3500 may be a good choice for you. If you think it is still gonna be too big for your house just load 'er light.
Now then, with a stove you have a lot more model choices than with an EPA furnace, with some research you can probably find a stove that is an easy breather, may work on your chimney. BTW, how tall is this chimney and is it internal or external to the house? If it is internal you may not have to have an insulated liner. ~$400 or so gets you a non insulated liner kit...

 

[Ohio Dave]

brenndatomu,
My chimney is 18 feet but it is an external masonry chimney. That was how all this got started. I was looking at the Drolet Tundra and noticed they required a 6" stack preferably internal. So I called them and ask if it would work with a 7" x7" masonry chimney and because of all the variables all they could tell me was maybe. Maybe seemed like a bad gamble to be spending the money on. Not to mention when you find out it doesn't work it will be a little late to do anything about it. So I looked into the liners and checked out my flue. The masonry liner looks pretty straight and I figured I could get it in there if I took my time. Then I found out it needs to be insulated so that wasn't going to work. I found out they make 5 1/2" liners and sent Drolet an email asking if that would work and they said there should be no problems. Unfortunately from what I can tell a 5 1/2" insulated liner is about 7" in diameter and that leaves 0" of fudge factor. I have never been that lucky so there is no way I am going to try that. When I set out to replace the old furnace I thought this would be push pull click click and then I got educated

 

[brenndatomu]

OK, well, you know if that chimney is good enough to vent your current furnace it (liner) wouldn't have to be insulated IMO.
There are two reasons to insulate a liner
1. For clearance to combustibles requirements (an un-insulated liner gives you more protection than you have now)
2. To keep the flue warm and drafting well. This would be the reason you would want to insulate I assume, but I would be willing to bet that it would work OK without insulation, especially if you seal up around the liner at the top and bottom real well (high temp ceramic insulation packed between the liner and the existing flue). Also, how the stove pipe is attached to the chimney can make as much or more difference than insulation on the liner. Keep the horizontal runs to a minimum and use a minimum number of 45* elbows, and no 90s if you can get away with it. Straight up is best but I know that isn't possible with an external chimney.
Another option is to add chimney height for stronger draft. The easiest way would likely be to attach a section or two of class A chimney pipe to the top of the chimney, they make adapters to do this