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pdqdl

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You mean like this?
1659748179938.png


Hmmm. That outrigger come clean off the ground, but the cribbing is still holding on the other side. Notice the size & style of the cribbing. And that ain't no simulation, either.

You do realize that you are offering flight advice to a set of veteran fighter pilots?
Based upon your vast experience at MS Flight simulator.

Here's a test for you ZinTrees: Tell us the best reason why this crane is tipped up like that. Offering the advice that it was too heavy a load is inadequate. Most every crane rollover involves a combination of errors. You gotta pick out the obvious ones in the picture that are not related to how heavy the load was.
 
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Here's a test for you ZinTrees: Tell us the best reason why this crane is tipped up like that. Offering the advice that it was too heavy a load is inadequate.
without reading the news article
cutter said a weight, crane operator said "OK" (without seeing the load first due to house in the way)
piece came off, dropped, and overloaded the crane

crane was within the bold line on the load chart (tip vs breaking load)
at certain angles, the structure of the crane snaps before tipping
your picture shows 1 layer of cribbing, when the side closest to the camera lifted, if it sat down (with 2 or 3 layers of non laced cribbing) there is a possibility of the blocks rolling out from under the outrigger pad

ive played jenga before, with cribbing, ive had blocking like this roll out from under stuff, hence me saying to lace it or dont use it


it was too heavy of a load, crane would be upright if it was light enough :angry:
 
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hard to tell from the picture, but it is also possible the operator didnt pick up the tires, so they could have shared the weight with the outriggers
AFAIK most modern cranes have load cells in each outrigger, if the tires are holding weight then the crane (or operator) would have zero clue when its actually losing weight on an outrigger, because the readings wouldnt be accurate
 

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So PDQL jumps in to warn a few fullas who (justifiably, in my humble opinion) have been getting cheesed off with low value (again, just my observation) contributions to the thread, then gets caught up in the same sticky web that's repelled valid contributors input? This is hands down, 100%, no argument the funniest thing I've been witness to on this site EVER, and I've watched every single page of the WTF section. I'm honestly almost peaking at the anticipation of PDQL's response to the latest offering........Jenga.....my godfathers......

I very rarely post anything, don't really think I've got anything too exciting to contribute but I love seeing how things are done by different outfits and especially the varying environments tree work is performed in (damned if I could work in the heat some of you put up with). I'd be very sorry to see this thread disappear.
 

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not a good plan.
In hind sight I could have done it better. I really should’ve cross stacked and added another layer of cribbing. My thinking at the time was to double up one way to keep any flex out of the cribbing since the bottom was shimmed. Can’t see in the pic but there is more than just the one board you can see. I have several thinner pieces under there to bridge the gaps. Ultimately I should’ve dug out to make it level first.
 

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So PDQL jumps in to warn a few fullas who (justifiably, in my humble opinion) have been getting cheesed off with low value (again, just my observation) contributions to the thread, then gets caught up in the same sticky web that's repelled valid contributors input? This is hands down, 100%, no argument the funniest thing I've been witness to on this site EVER, and I've watched every single page of the WTF section. I'm honestly almost peaking at the anticipation of PDQL's response to the latest offering........Jenga.....my godfathers......

I very rarely post anything, don't really think I've got anything too exciting to contribute but I love seeing how things are done by different outfits and especially the varying environments tree work is performed in (damned if I could work in the heat some of you put up with). I'd be very sorry to see this thread disappear.

I’ll be back, busy, taking the family on a snow holiday.

Did get a laugh too, kids got an doctorate in giving people the ****’s.
 

pdqdl

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So PDQL jumps in to warn a few fullas who (justifiably, in my humble opinion) have been getting cheesed off with low value (again, just my observation) contributions to the thread, then gets caught up in the same sticky web that's repelled valid contributors input? This is hands down, 100%, no argument the funniest thing I've been witness to on this site EVER, and I've watched every single page of the WTF section. I'm honestly almost peaking at the anticipation of PDQL's response to the latest offering........Jenga.....my godfathers......

I very rarely post anything, don't really think I've got anything too exciting to contribute but I love seeing how things are done by different outfits and especially the varying environments tree work is performed in (damned if I could work in the heat some of you put up with). I'd be very sorry to see this thread disappear.

It is kinda funny, eh? I think it's a teachable moment, though. Just you wait. I'll either win Zin over on this conversation, or admit my defeat. Zin is a bright fellow, and he is willing to work for his answers, but lacking the experience of setting up cranes, he missed the obvious. My goal here is not to prove him wrong, but to convince him that he can be taught some stuff by listening more to what the advanced pro's here in this forum have to say.

I do think that you have applied the right label to his post, however. "Low value contribution" is an excellent way of describing his comment. Rather than getting pissed off about it, I'm just going to make him think about it a bit more.

And then there is this: I warned the seasoned fellows to be nice. I didn't say that some of the comments aimed at ZinTree were necessarily wrong. It is essential here in this forum to not start a bunch of hateful dialogue. That isn't productive to anyone, and serves no purpose except to generate more hateful stuff that we don't want to read. If you catch me "not being nice", be sure to put me on a very embarrassing notice.
 

pdqdl

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without reading the news article
cutter said a weight, crane operator said "OK" (without seeing the load first due to house in the way)
piece came off, dropped, and overloaded the crane
That is a giant assumption. It was a backyard operation, and you are presuming that the cutter and the crane operator were in direct communication. Given that the crane is tipped over, I doubt if it was that sophisticated an operation. I have done a few crane assisted removals, and we never had a conversation like you described. Your average climber doesn't know how much a log weighs, anyway. It's all done with guesswork.

crane was within the bold line on the load chart (tip vs breaking load)
at certain angles, the structure of the crane snaps before tipping
Oooh! A crane load chart. I wonder what in the picture (besides being tipped over) suggests that they didn't follow the chart?

your picture shows 1 layer of cribbing, when the side closest to the camera lifted, if it sat down (with 2 or 3 layers of non laced cribbing) there is a possibility of the blocks rolling out from under the outrigger pad
Nonsense. Cribbing never rolls out when it is squeezed perpendicularly between two parallel forces. Think about Jenga a little bit harder. :laughing: Those pieces never roll out! The column always collapses due to insufficient stability, but the pieces NEVER "roll". (That being said, if the cribbing is crushed with an overload, it may appear to have been rolled. Crossing directions makes a crushed load of cribbing much more stable than parallel stacks.)

ive played jenga before, with cribbing, ive had blocking like this roll out from under stuff, hence me saying to lace it or dont use it


it was too heavy of a load, crane would be upright if it was light enough :angry:

Like I said before, saying it was too heavy isn't an adequate answer.
Offering the advice that it was too heavy a load is inadequate.

There is a reason that load chart didn't work, and it is probably why the crane tipped. It is easily visible in the picture, too. So go back, look at the picture some more, and kindly stop bluffing your answers to me. It is far more important in this occupation to be correct than it is to use all your talents to just make everyone think you are right.

Perhaps you can explain to me how cribbing "rolls out", and what the structural cause of such an event would be?
 

pdqdl

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it was too heavy of a load, crane would be upright if it was light enough :angry:

Again, that's a big Nope!
You can tip most cranes over by just positioning it wrong. With no load at all, most of them can be tipped. Very likely the one in my picture could have been, for the reason you have not yet seen.

Now my little knuckleboom crane, cannot. It is stable in any position, presuming that the outriggers are down. It has also been on it's side twice, so I know a little bit about why they go over.

Here is another question for you: Why does a crane even need cribbing? On flat ground, those guys usually put a bunch of wood blocks under that perfectly good outrigger pad. What's the point?
 

pdqdl

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AFAIK most modern cranes have load cells in each outrigger, if the tires are holding weight then the crane (or operator) would have zero clue when its actually losing weight on an outrigger, because the readings wouldnt be accurate

As Far As I Know would be a real good indicator of how accurate your analysis is. There are a LOT of old cranes running around, and those are most likely the ones doing the tree service. It's cheaper that way.

The high dollar cranes are on new construction and working for high-dollar building service. Setting cooling towers on the top of buildings and such. Those guys pretty much don't even want to waste their time talking to a tree service.

Now the bigger tree services that have their own cranes? They might very well have the best toys available. Your buddy tree MDS falls into that category. He's got stuff I've never used, and don't even know how to operate. He's got people that can be relied upon to not turn them over, too. I would never purport to tell him how to run it, either, 'cause I'm unqualified. That's an expression you would do well to learn how to use.
 
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hard to tell from the picture, assuming the crane has rear outriggers, it appears they were not used
if it didnt have them, then they were using the wrong load chart and or no comms


that crane company that screwed me over on a job recently refused comms, saying if anything went wrong it would be my issue
the owners BFF said "he knows what hes doing, he dont need em"
I told him if I got hurt over that then id send the bill to the crane company for refusing comms

that is about the time they quit answering the phone
 

pdqdl

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It's easy to tell from the pictures. Man up, and admit that you don't know, or just turn on your common sense and look for the obvious. I'll bet Jeff Lovestrom and tree MDS are giggling to themselves, 'because they see it too.

Please understand that we (the old timers in this thread) already know that you lack experience in a lot of these topics. We don't expect you to know everything, because we can remember when we were young and thought we knew everything, too. It's just that we think you should understand that a bit of humility should go with that lack of experience. Bluster just gets you unpopular.

That brings up another question: are you here to learn something, to impress us with your bluster, or perhaps just to join a community of peers? Please think about that a bit more. Right now most of us think that you are posting here just to impress us with your bluster.

"Comms" as you discovered, are not universally recognized as a solution for all crane operations. I like 'em, but I discovered a long time ago that they can be unreliable and lead to problems. It takes a climber and crane operator with mutually shared time on the job before I would consider them a better solution than hand signals. If the job cannot be done with hand signals, then it should only be done by an experienced team.

That is why your crane company quit talking to you. You threatened them with liability while displaying your ignorance. That's a recipe for problems, right there. They did a quick risk evaluation, and decided that working with you wasn't worth the risk of problems. You on the other hand, decided that it wasn't your problem, that they were screwing you over, and you clearly didn't benefit from the experience.
 
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That is why your crane company quit talking to you. You threatened them with liability while displaying your ignorance.
nope
they quit replying because I asked about comms, and I refused to let a local tree guy on my job (who demanded to be on my job, and be paid to be there)
they guy is friends with the owner, he made some phone calls, told them not to show up
 

pdqdl

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Versatility is an important talent to have, and persistence and ingenuity are important skills. You are dodging my questions, however.

That brings up another question: are you here to learn something, to impress us with your bluster, or perhaps just to join a community of peers?

. Man up, and admit that you don't know, or just turn on your common sense and look for the obvious.
 

pdqdl

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Then I'll make a request. Can we please have less bluster and more "here to learn" ?

If you are as young as you claim, then I have the greatest respect and admiration for your work ethic and accomplishments. I sure wish that you would apply yourself to learning more from this forum than telling us about your successes. Whenever you do something great, go ahead and tell us about your project. Then ask for some opinions, and don't get so damned fussy when someone points out their thoughts about your project. We are probably seeing things that you cannot, due to your lack of experience.

As to that crane picture, you couldn't see the problem because of your lack of experience. Had you just admitted that you didn't know, I would have told you the answer. Instead, you submitted a guess, which only consisted of stating the obvious.

So I'll put it to the field of experts that may yet be watching this thread: What's the most probable reason that the crane tipped over?
Kindly don't say dumb stuff like "it was overloaded". We can see that. :dizzy: Tell me what the visual cues are that can easily be seen in the photo.
 

Tetanus

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Then I'll make a request. Can we please have less bluster and more "here to learn" ?

If you are as young as you claim, then I have the greatest respect and admiration for your work ethic and accomplishments. I sure wish that you would apply yourself to learning more from this forum than telling us about your successes. Whenever you do something great, go ahead and tell us about your project. Then ask for some opinions, and don't get so damned fussy when someone points out their thoughts about your project. We are probably seeing things that you cannot, due to your lack of experience.

As to that crane picture, you couldn't see the problem because of your lack of experience. Had you just admitted that you didn't know, I would have told you the answer. Instead, you submitted a guess, which only consisted of stating the obvious.

So I'll put it to the field of experts that may yet be watching this thread: What's the most probable reason that the crane tipped over?
Kindly don't say dumb stuff like "it was overloaded". We can see that. :dizzy: Tell me what the visual cues are that can easily be seen in the photo.

Can I play? Couldn't extend the rear outriggers fully due to proximity of houses. Short outrigger setup (or none) acted like a fulcrum.
 

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