Rakers for milling

[Stonewoodiron]

Milling with 395xp and 36” bar. Using skip tooth full chisel, .58, 3/8. Saw not grabbing- it cuts with the same speed, finish, debris at half throttle or full throttle. Actually, I feel like full throttle may be not good for the saw because it’s not meeting enough resistance. Anyone ever lower rakers in this situation? Saw is only for milling. Thanks!!

 

[Harmon]

measure them? have you filed them at all, after sharpening?

 

[BobL]

Post a close up photo of the side of a cutter and I'll do a diagnosis for you

 

[Stonewoodiron]

measure them? have you filed them at all, after sharpening?

Not yet. Brand new chainsaw and chain. All very new to me

 

[Stonewoodiron]

Not yet. Brand new chainsaw and chain. All very new to me

Used a 50 cc, 20” bar to mill before upgrading and was getting comfortable with its operations but needed to upgrade before destroying the saw. Just started working with chainsaws and milling devices on New Year’s Day 2021

 

[Stonewoodiron]

Post a close up photo of the side of a cutter and I'll do a diagnosis for you

 

[Stonewoodiron]

Sure doesn’t have much “differential” between raker heights and peak of cutting tooth. This is an aftermarket chain. The stock chain felt very much the same way- which is why I switched!

 

[J D]

Usually you want the rakers slightly lower than you would have them for x-cutting but new chain should cut acceptability. To my eye you need a bit more of a hook with your sharpening (this helps self feed), & to lower the rakers a tad. Are you hand filing (jig or free hand?) or grinding? & what angles?

 

[Stonewoodiron]

Usually you want the rakers slightly lower than you would have them for x-cutting but new chain should cut acceptability. To my eye you need a bit more of a hook with your sharpening (this helps self feed), & to lower the rakers a tad. Are you hand filing (jig or free hand?) or grinding? & what angles?

 

[Stonewoodiron]

I have not filed this chain at all yet. My smaller chains are hand filed. I just get in there with the appropriate file and make several passes. I have a file guide which has the angles but it was cumbersome. I decided to just go for it and things worked out pretty decently. Took a flat file to the top of the rakers and made two passes. I did buy the Husqvarna file guide that has the roller wheels on it. I was a lot more willing to destroy a chain on a 20 inch bar. Not as willing to foul up a 36 inch chain especially in such a behemoth of a saw!

 

[J D]

This is my skip tooth chain...

I have the rakers set fairly aggressively (for soft wood).
This is the Granberg style milling chain I run for a setup similar to yours (36" on a 390XP)

I find it gives a better finish while still cutting at a reasonable speed.
This is unfilled chain I had on the bench...
Note the "beak" typical of a factory grind

 

[BobL]

I agree with JD the cutters could use a bit more hook.
But the rakers are indeed too high
From that photo the angle that green line makes with the file on top of the cutter works out to be 4.6º which explains why there's not much cutting going on.
On Stock chain that is around 5.7º so then as you file the cutter the angle gets shaper and shallower
The optimum angle depends on available power, type of wood and width of cut.

In sub 24" hard wood using a 72cc 441 I use 7.5º.
On my 880 with the 60" bar in hard wood I use 6.5º
Members on this forum have used up to 9º using a 660 in softwoods.


You have to determine what is best for your particular situation.

If you don't want to go the nerd route of actually measuring this angle with digital angle finder you can go the old timer route.
Take the raker down so the raker depth is 1/10 of the gullet width - this will get you back to stock saw raker depth (5.7º)
Then take say 5 swipes of each raker and try end grain cutting. If it's not bogging down in the cut too much try say 3 more swipes per raker, try again.
Repeat until the saw is noticeably bogging down in the cut.
If you go too far, take ~10 swipes of each cutter and try that.

Nerd route.


This is called progressive raker setting. For more grimy details look here
https://www.arboristsite.com/commun...ly-progressive-depth-raker-generators.114624/
There is a trade off, more vibe, more B&C wear and tear, so using aux oiler and good bar housekeeping is needed, and also may lead to poorer finish
It's not a method I recommend for crosscutting for anyone but the most experienced chainsaw user as it does lead to greater kick back.

 

[Stonewoodiron]

This is my skip tooth chain...
View attachment 890425View attachment 890426View attachment 890427
I have the rakers set fairly aggressively (for soft wood).
This is the Granberg style milling chain I run for a setup similar to yours (36" on a 390XP)
View attachment 890429
I find it gives a better finish while still cutting at a reasonable speed.
This is unfilled chain I had on the bench...View attachment 890430
Note the "beak" typical of a factory grind

This is my skip tooth chain...
View attachment 890425View attachment 890426View attachment 890427
I have the rakers set fairly aggressively (for soft wood).
This is the Granberg style milling chain I run for a setup similar to yours (36" on a 390XP)
View attachment 890429
I find it gives a better finish while still cutting at a reasonable speed.
This is unfilled chain I had on the bench...View attachment 890430
Note the "beak" typical of a factory grind

Is that the Granberg with scoring cutters? Had my eye on that but didn’t pull the trigger because I’ve tried 3 chain types on my 450 Rancher with 20” bar and not found any major or consistent differences between them. Used the: oem crosscut, 10* ripping, and full chisel. They all seemed to perform about the same. Maybe it would be more significant in a larger saw?

 

[Stonewoodiron]

I agree with JD the cutters could use a bit more hook.
But the rakers are indeed too high
From that photo the angle that green line makes with the file on top of the cutter works out to be 4.6º which explains why there's not much cutting going on.
On Stock chain that is around 5.7º so then as you file the cutter the angle gets shaper and shallower
The optimum angle depends on available power, type of wood and width of cut.

In sub 24" hard wood using a 72cc 441 I use 7.5º.
On my 880 with the 60" bar in hard wood I use 6.5º
Members on this forum have used up to 9º using a 660 in softwoods.

View attachment 890440
You have to determine what is best for your particular situation.

If you don't want to go the nerd route of actually measuring this angle with digital angle finder you can go the old timer route.
Take the raker down so the raker depth is 1/10 of the gullet width - this will get you back to stock saw raker depth (5.7º)
Then take say 5 swipes of each raker and try end grain cutting. If it's not bogging down in the cut too much try say 3 more swipes per raker, try again.
Repeat until the saw is noticeably bogging down in the cut.
If you go too far, take ~10 swipes of each cutter and try that.

Nerd route.


This is called progressive raker setting. For more grimy details look here
https://www.arboristsite.com/commun...ly-progressive-depth-raker-generators.114624/
There is a trade off, more vibe, more B&C wear and tear, so using aux oiler and good bar housekeeping is needed, and also may lead to poorer finish
It's not a method I recommend for crosscutting for anyone but the most experienced chainsaw user as it does lead to greater kick back.

I’ve put more “hook” on the cutter and am grinding down the rakers now. Thank you for your input. At this point, I’ll use the old school method you described due to recent massive expenditures in the tool/toy category. Some of the sharpening methods and techniques can be confusing because they are contradictory. On the extreme left: guides and devices ensure every tooth, gullet, and raker are precision ground to aircraft bearing specs. On the extreme right: get in there and get it done with a round file, flat file, and your eyes. Anyway, going to take care of this chain and will let you know how it performs

 

[J D]

Is that the Granberg with scoring cutters?

Yep, for me with my setup I find it helps keep the chain speed up & gives the best finish. Made my own with a grinder in a drill press.

Your 395 should happily pull full comp on a 36" bar. Semi chisel sharpened to 10° should work consistently well. I start with chain at ~30° & sharpen it back about 5° each sharpen. Key to finish is smooth cutting so everything you can do to aid that will help... Angle logs so gravity assists, wedge cuts every meter or so (ideally have someone else do that so you don't have to keep stopping), hold a consistent angle, maintain chain speed, use the plank every cut, sharpen chain evenly & consistently... The list goes on for a bit. If you haven't already done so I'd recommend reading the CS milling 101 thread.

 

[BobL]

I’ve put more “hook” on the cutter and am grinding down the rakers now. Thank you for your input. At this point, I’ll use the old school method you described due to recent massive expenditures in the tool/toy category. Some of the sharpening methods and techniques can be confusing because they are contradictory. On the extreme left: guides and devices ensure every tooth, gullet, and raker are precision ground to aircraft bearing specs. On the extreme right: get in there and get it done with a round file, flat file, and your eyes. Anyway, going to take care of this chain and will let you know how it performs

I'm a combo of the two. I set my rakers with a digital angle finder in the shop only every now and then. In the field I swipe the cutters 3-4 times about every tank full of mill or about every 32 sq ft of cut in hardwood and double that in softwood (not that I mill much softwood) and I swipe teh rakers 2-3 times every 3-4 tanks of fuel.
With this method you don't have to work so much about having the cutters all the same length. If one looks a bit longer than the others around it I will give it a a few extra swipes.

 

[J D]

I'm a combo of the two.)

Dito, I'll true everything up on the grinder whenever I have the mill apart, but in-between I hand file

 

[J D]

Saw not grabbing- it cuts with the same speed, finish, debris at half throttle or full throttle. Actually, I feel like full throttle may be not good for the saw because it’s not meeting enough resistance.

Chain aside the mill binding on the edge of the log can cause feeding issues. Removing the bark can help & usually helps the chain stay sharp longer. Some have attached rollers to the front of the mill with varying degrees of success

 

[buzz sawyer]

Haven't seen this yet - I was always told to run that saw full throttle to ensure adequate mix to the engine and air flow from the fan for proper lube and cooling.

 

[BobL]

Haven't seen this yet - I was always told to run that saw full throttle to ensure adequate mix to the engine and air flow from the fan for proper lube and cooling.

Correct.