Safe rope use to guide a falling tree.

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Westboastfaller

Westboastfaller

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This :rolleyes:.

Especially this.
Although he should have enough tension on the line so the hinge doesn't tear.
Maybe it's how this one was done, ignore the cough, but that is funny.
I didn't have any volume. It just read 'Timber' about 4-5 times..lol. Hows it going Brett?
Man, rough ride buddy. Looked like the tree stalled for a bit but was after it popped the vertical. must have just slowed back to it's reg speed after the jolt forward I guess.

I was just saying if he wanted to do a drop-snap back cut you don't pre-load on the rope with that cut.

We use it to hold a back-leaner or two while you are felling the forward leaner or a more manageable tree to wedge into them.
It's really been a Canadian coastal style on a side lay where the big trees are the key players, there to overcome felling difficulties. Wedges get buried also which is time and money. Our west-coastal American friends use tree jacks when they get into sizable wood way more.

A few advantages using that back-cut with the rope is to free you up so you can get to your tirfor winch or whatever. More stable than a tree cut up with wedges. You can still set a wedge lightly if you want.

I showed one guy that. He wasn't a climber and needed to free up the bucket truck. He was no way competent enough to do back-cut first and set wedges for that dia with heavy back-lean on a few maple tops. I had him leave about 15" of vertical holding wood on those with hinge wood.

It works good for this situation as long as they aren't forward-leaning. (Just side lean is fine) You can compensate a bit of a forward lean with undercutting the back cut more. If he can't pull the worst one that is 180 off the lean then 90 degrees can be a bad deal when. Too much stress on the high-side hinge or the high-side-back rips out with some of the roots. Some, you don't want to turn your undercut more than 60 degree and I do a 2" vertical wall at the inside of the undercut where the two cuts meet so the holding-wood peels down like a tongue.
3 side undercut.
 
northmanlogging
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It seems that you do not understand simple principles, or are afraid to do manual labor
I understand the principle enough to know a waste of time and effort when I see it. Seems a lot of folks think hard work shows merit of some sort, "if I try real hard and look busy I'll accomplish something" well... theres an old fable about a farmer and a dull axe... maybe you've heard it?

If you already have a come-a-long(heroin) there is no need to add weight(Tylenol PM), Just use the ****ing come-a-long and stop ****ing off. i.e. JUST DO THE HEROIN...
 
Oldswede

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I understand the principle enough to know a waste of time and effort when I see it. Seems a lot of folks think hard work shows merit of some sort, "if I try real hard and look busy I'll accomplish something" well... theres an old fable about a farmer and a dull axe... maybe you've heard it?

If you already have a come-a-long(heroin) there is no need to add weight(Tylenol PM), Just use the ****ing come-a-long and stop ****ing off. i.e. JUST DO THE HEROIN...
Ok, it might take five minutes to put a loop around a log and attach it to the rope, if you think it is hard work that makes your muscles ache then I think you should refrain from all physical activity. And good luck keeping constant tension on the rope with a comealong when you are going to pull over a backleaner with a good lean! 😂
 
TheJollyLogger

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Ok, it might take five minutes to put a loop around a log and attach it to the rope, if you think it is hard work that makes your muscles ache then I think you should refrain from all physical activity. And good luck keeping constant tension on the rope with a comealong when you are going to pull over a backleaner with a good lean! 😂
Once the rope goes slack it means you own the tree, gravity does the rest. The rope has done it's job at that point. Do you keep adding wedges until it hits the ground?
 
Oldswede

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Once the rope goes slack it means you own the tree, gravity does the rest. The rope has done it's job at that point. Do you keep adding wedges until it hits the ground?
Have you ever used a comealong? In that case, you should know that the length of the wire is limited and not enough to pull over a heavy tree that is leaning a lot. Then you have to run back and forth to your comealong and do several retakes on your rope to get the tree over the tipping point.
 
Oldswede

Oldswede

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It seems to me the only reason to attach a weight midline is to attempt to do a 2 man job by yourself. Aside from just adding unneeded complexity to what is actually a simple job, you have lost all the safety factors an extra set of hands and eyes provides.
Keep in mind the OP is already out of his experience and comfort zone or he wouldn't be on here, and his plan and questions betray his lack of experience. For him to try this solo is just foolhardy.
First, I'm not trying to tell OP to do this, it was just a comment on Little Wood's post. Second, I do not understand why my customers should pay for two men's working time for a job that only requires one experienced man?
 
ShermanC

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I have a bunch of tall poplar that are nearing end of life, and are leaning the wrong way to fell normally without putting house, barn, or shed at risk.

Check my calculations:
A 2 foot diameter poplar with have a stump area about 3 square feet. 80 feet tall. Let's assume that the branches make up for the trunk taper and for weight purposes it is a cylinder. 240 cubic feet.

Wet poplar at 40 lbs/cuft gives me a mass of 9600 pounds -- about 5 tons

If it leans 15 degrees, (over estimate) then there is about 25% of that load is in the horizontal direction. 2400 lbs.

I have 150' 3/4" nylon solid braid) rope with a rated breaking strength of 20,000 pounds in new condition, with an eye splice on either end.

My thought is put a messenger line into the crown, draw the rope up and over, bring the eye down, and pass thorugh. Attach the other end to my tractor (Deuzt 55 hp -- weighs about 3 tons)

Coefficient of friction on a tractor tire on firm soil is aobut .5 So maximum force tractor can put on rope is about 3000 lbs.

So use the tractor to tension the rope until wheels start to skid, OR it stretches 8% (Estimate of elastic stretch. I have an inquiry with the rope maker for this number)

My plan was to make the wedge cut first, then tension the rope, then make the back cut.

Is this a reasonable approach?
From the Worker's Compensation Board in Vancouver, B. C. order the Faller's & Bucker's Handbook. It will be time and money well spent to read it through before you make mistakes. The book describes how to 'size up' a tree for felling. I was trained by a certified forester and learned to keep count in my head...my count since 1991 as of a week ago is now 4,685 dropped...23 fell the wrong way and two cost me $4,300 USD (they happened before I could afford liability insurance of $1,140 a year).
 
ken morgan
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I guess I am lucky as I have access to a surplus fire department come along. it uses 19mm wire rope and it feeds raw cable into it, so any length is acceptable. but it needs two people to use it one to cut the wood and one to operate the come along. I have found that three or four stakes driven into the ground 1 meter at a 45° angle with the top of the forward most tied to the bottom of the next in line etc etc in series gives you a pretty good anchor point.

other than that you need to clear the top of the tree on the side of the lean to make it lighter, top out as much s you can and above all be careful.
 
Brufab
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9ns are about 3700, more with a loader

However what they don't have is a reliable starter or brakes in fact the brakes especially on the 9n are so bad I wouldn't trust them on flat ground.

You do this solo with a 9n, it will go badly, how badly depends on how much the tree takes out and which what it ultimately falls.

Really, most tractors do not have reliable enough brakes to even think about attempting solo, including modern stuff.
My 9n is brakeless. Only use it to putz around the house grade the road and push snow. The 600 series we got has had the brakes redone and they work pretty good.
 
Brufab
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pool noodle wont do much to protect a rope under tension being pulled over a sharp edge, ever tried to cut one? (rope under tension or pool noodle)
I have alot of straps that are used in a steel plant for lifting bundles of steel bars. Those are my go too's on each end of a cable with clevis if you can use chain around the bucket I would do that
 
ken morgan
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Did the op ever post pics of the trees, proposed landing area and buildings other trees etc in the radius of where the trees are??? Because.....and if the trees are dead it adds a whole new problem because dead trees don't hinge well IMO :thisthreadisworthlesswithoutpictures:
yep.. I never asked for and never looked but you are not wrong in this case.
 
TheJollyLogger

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Have you ever used a comealong? In that case, you should know that the length of the wire is limited and not enough to pull over a heavy tree that is leaning a lot. Then you have to run back and forth to your comealong and do several retakes on your rope to get the tree over the tipping point.
That's why you get a masdaam.
 
Brufab
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That's why you get a masdaam.
Trouble with a comealong I think is that your not able to take up enough line fast enough to direct the tree. I have used a chain type comealong and it requires some pretensioning of the tree which is kinda not safe especially if the tree isn't green. I have done it but it's not the smartest thing to do. I only done it to drop a few popple trees around a deerblind.
 
Bearcreek

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Trouble with a comealong I think is that your not able to take up enough line fast enough to direct the tree. I have used a chain type comealong and it requires some pretensioning of the tree which is kinda not safe especially if the tree isn't green. I have done it but it's not the smartest thing to do. I only done it to drop a few popple trees around a deerblind.
The comealong or anything else that you're pulling with (truck, tractor, ATV etc) isn't supposed to direct the tree once it's falling. Relying on anything to do that is asking for trouble, especially if there's only one or even two people on the job. I've done that a few times but it was with three very experienced people who had worked together for years.
 
Westboastfaller

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That's why you get a masdaam.
Good value and nice and light for it's capabilities. No excuse not to have one for that price even if you have a big 'Tirfor' "wire rope puller". Hate to see a guy dragging an oversize tirfor set-up, up steep hills such as on utility lines, when it's overkill. Especially when It's my turn.
 
TheJollyLogger

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First, I'm not trying to tell OP to do this, it was just a comment on Little Wood's post. Second, I do not understand why my customers should pay for two men's working time for a job that only requires one experienced man?
1. Safety
2. Me and my groundie would be headed to the next job while you are still setting up your rig. 2 guys aren't twice as fast, more like 3 or 4 times as fast.
 
Ted Jenkins
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Trouble with a comealong I think is that your not able to take up enough line fast enough to direct the tree. I have used a chain type comealong and it requires some pretensioning of the tree which is kinda not safe especially if the tree isn't green. I have done it but it's not the smartest thing to do. I only done it to drop a few popple trees around a deerblind.
I took down a tree last week following the method that I described earlier. A 4,000 lb come a long was more than adequate. The tree was about 6' from a house and deck. It was leaning several degrees towards house. The owner had wanted it removed a couple of months ago but got Covid so it slowed me down. The day I wanted to bring it down my helper was gone so I did it anyway. The owner was very concerned about none of the surrounding trees be damaged. My helper had helped me lower the limbs and branches the day before so all I had to do was the stem. The top portion took just the right touch to get it right. I put a small amount of tension with the come a long to be sure it leaned a little then made the under cut and checked the tension. At that point I attached two smaller logs to the line to make sure it had tension all the way down. I then started making the face cut and it immediately started opening up so I knew it was ready. My anchor point was several degrees different then where I wanted it so cut the back cut to one side a couple of inches to make it be directed to one side more. It landed with in 6'' of where I wanted it. Yes it made me smile. Thanks
 
northmanlogging
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Ok, it might take five minutes to put a loop around a log and attach it to the rope, if you think it is hard work that makes your muscles ache then I think you should refrain from all physical activity. And good luck keeping constant tension on the rope with a comealong when you are going to pull over a backleaner with a good lean! 😂
Think your confusing hard work with pointless work, running around looking busy and getting nothing done, is stupid. And as a previous poster mentioned, once that rope goes slack, tree is on its own, and will either follow the face cut or fail, your counter weight isn't going to do any damned good.

As for come-a-longs with limited cable/rope supply, that comes down to poor planning, if you are using one, you should have as much pull as you can get out of it, and if its not enough, don't attempt it, barring that the madsdem rope come-a-long works pretty damned good and uses whatever length of rope you feel like stuffing in it, mine currently has 200' so I really don't see what the purpose of suspending a lump of fire wood over head is really going to do for you or anyone else for that matter, better would be a proper winch, but what do I know I'm just a dumb logger that does this literally once or week or more. Granted I am lazy and I use a skidder with a 20000# winch, its still a PITA to rig up though.
My 9n is brakeless. Only use it to putz around the house grade the road and push snow. The 600 series we got has had the brakes redone and they work pretty good.
I'm pretty sure the 9-8-2n's came with brakes from the factory, never seen one that the brakes did anything but slow you down traveling up hill... sometimes they will stop a wheel that is free wheeling while jacked up, but it takes a couple turns first

That said, tractor brakes of all stripes are not something I would trust to hold anything but the tractor itself on anything more then a shallow grade
 
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