Technical Saw Chain Discussion

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PLATINUM12

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Haven't found the answers for some questions I have between searches and Youtube, so I want to start a thread talking about the technical side of saw chains to get some insight on best practices.

Brand new chains always cut the best. But that is shortly lived depending on the conditions it is being used in. I haven't yet found a great formula for sharpening chains, so before we get into that, I have some questions about how the chain actually works.

Full Chisel Chains:

1. Is the entire top plate of the cutter doing most of the cutting?
2. How much of the side plate is doing the cutting?
3. How critical is it that the gullet needs to remain as sharp as the top plate?

I run a Stihl MS362 with 25" bar, and I generally run the Stihl saw chains, both full comp and full skip. I also have the carbide Stihl chain, which is more of a semi chisel, but I'll discuss this one later.

When a brand new chain has been worn enough and needs sharpened, I notice that the top plate cutter has a slight downward slope that has worn into it. When I use the Stihl 2 in 1 hand file, I use it according to directions, but the round file doesn't do much at all for the top plate, since its not tall enough (Yes I'm using the 3/8" Stihl file). It will sharpen the side plate a bit, and the gullet, and file down the raker as well. This is what leads me to believe the top plate is the most critical part of the cutter to be sharp, because after filing, my results aren't much better. At full throttle, the chain pretty much just glides over the wood, not taking any bites into it. At lighter throttle, it will start to grab more wood, but this is not an efficient way to cut at all.
I also have a basic electric grinder (Harbor Freight) which doesn't work too bad. It is able to give it a new edge for the top plate, but grinding each cutter side results in uneven griding because one side is being ground differently than the other (despite grinding it at the correct angle). However, after using this, this gives me better bite in terms of cutting. Sometimes, after grinding a new top plate edge, I then use my 2 in 1 file to make the edge a bit more refined.

As a landowner, I am not in a race to get things cut up, I value durability more. I generally have always sharpened at 30 degree angles. I tried 35 and it just wasn't biting enough for me. This weekend I tried sharpening at 25 degrees to see what the results will be next time I cut. Will this angle hold up better than 30 degrees? I cut anything from rotted pine, to fresh oak, cherry, and maple, so I would like the best all-around option.

On larger trees over 2' in diameter, after making regular log cuts, I cut with the grain/longways to cut the logs into manageable pieces for firewood. What is a better chain/angle option for making these kinds of cuts, without going to the extreme of an actual 'ripping chain.'

I notice the full skip chains will dull a bit quicker, but they require less time to sharpen. I likely won't buy another full skip chain for this sized saw and based on my general cutting needs.

I haven't yet bought the new Stihl Hexa chain, but it seems like the Hexa file is taller and would offer better sharpening of the top plate. I'd also be interested if these chains keep their edge longer than other circle ground chains.

I'm open to hearing about square ground chains, in terms of benefits, downsides, etc.

Semi Chisel/Carbide Chains

I had great success last fall running my Stihl carbide saw chain. I was able to cut up around 50 dead pines and still had solid cutting power. This also included quite a bit of dirt time, probably at least a few minutes collectively of being run in the dirt based on the rotted trees I was cutting up. This is more of a semi chisel/thin kerf chain. Only downsides are it isnt a fast cutter, and I don't have a means of sharpening it. The other issue I had was chain stretch, where I had to remove a link on two occasions to keep it usable. My bar I ran was also worn down a bit, so I think that might have had something to do with it heating up.

For this size of saw, semi chisel chains aren't very popular, but they definitely hold their edge much longer. I run the picco chains on my pole saw and MS180 for limbing, and they do a great job of having a usable cutting edge even when contacted with dirt a bit. My Stihl 2 in 1 sharpener tends to do a better job of sharpening these chains because of the semi chisel shape, and lower profile of the cutting plate.


Beyond that, I personally never clean or oil my chains. Is it really worth it to clean the chain when you remove it, and then soak it in oil after you sharpen it? If so, what kind of cleaner/oil are you guys using?

TL;DR: I want to get better cutting performance and life out of my saw chains instead of having to dog my saw hard to get the chains to bite better as the sharpness dulls during use.

Thanks in advance.
 
Haven't found the answers for some questions I have between searches and Youtube, so I want to start a thread talking about the technical side of saw chains to get some insight on best practices.

Brand new chains always cut the best. But that is shortly lived depending on the conditions it is being used in. I haven't yet found a great formula for sharpening chains, so before we get into that, I have some questions about how the chain actually works.

Starting with a false assumption.

TL;DR:

Try searching in the saw chain forum. There are hours and hours of reading just waiting for you.
 
Starting with a false assumption.

TL;DR:

Try searching in the saw chain forum. There are hours and hours of reading just waiting for you.
I searched for a saw chain forum/section and I wasn't finding anything. Do you have a link?
 
Another way of the searching the forum is with Google. Just add:
(to the end of your search terms), this will limit the results to this forum (or any other site swapping addresses)

So you could search in google for:

chisel semi chisel "new chain" site:www.arboristsite.com

The quotes means you will only get results with "new chain" as they are in quotes, and the other words are also added to search results. For your search you might not want to add the "new chain"

The built in forum search feature is not always the best (nothing to do with the forum, it's just the software used), so it's worth playing around with different options.
 
Your chain needs sharpened WAY before there is any kind of downward slope in it. Yes, the top plate of the cutter is probably the single most important face on each tooth, but getting it all correct is important. I find it hard to believe the 2 in 1 sharpener isn't filing the top plate, but I have never used one.

I like the Madsen's Saw Shop website tutorials. Their catalog is a .pdf, there is a lot about chains and sharpening there.
https://www.madsens1.com/
 
Haven't found the answers for some questions I have between searches and Youtube, so I want to start a thread talking about the technical side of saw chains to get some insight on best practices.

Brand new chains always cut the best. But that is shortly lived depending on the conditions it is being used in. I haven't yet found a great formula for sharpening chains, so before we get into that, I have some questions about how the chain actually works.

Full Chisel Chains:

1. Is the entire top plate of the cutter doing most of the cutting?
2. How much of the side plate is doing the cutting?
3. How critical is it that the gullet needs to remain as sharp as the top plate?

I run a Stihl MS362 with 25" bar, and I generally run the Stihl saw chains, both full comp and full skip. I also have the carbide Stihl chain, which is more of a semi chisel, but I'll discuss this one later.

When a brand new chain has been worn enough and needs sharpened, I notice that the top plate cutter has a slight downward slope that has worn into it. When I use the Stihl 2 in 1 hand file, I use it according to directions, but the round file doesn't do much at all for the top plate, since its not tall enough (Yes I'm using the 3/8" Stihl file). It will sharpen the side plate a bit, and the gullet, and file down the raker as well. This is what leads me to believe the top plate is the most critical part of the cutter to be sharp, because after filing, my results aren't much better. At full throttle, the chain pretty much just glides over the wood, not taking any bites into it. At lighter throttle, it will start to grab more wood, but this is not an efficient way to cut at all.
I also have a basic electric grinder (Harbor Freight) which doesn't work too bad. It is able to give it a new edge for the top plate, but grinding each cutter side results in uneven griding because one side is being ground differently than the other (despite grinding it at the correct angle). However, after using this, this gives me better bite in terms of cutting. Sometimes, after grinding a new top plate edge, I then use my 2 in 1 file to make the edge a bit more refined.

As a landowner, I am not in a race to get things cut up, I value durability more. I generally have always sharpened at 30 degree angles. I tried 35 and it just wasn't biting enough for me. This weekend I tried sharpening at 25 degrees to see what the results will be next time I cut. Will this angle hold up better than 30 degrees? I cut anything from rotted pine, to fresh oak, cherry, and maple, so I would like the best all-around option.

On larger trees over 2' in diameter, after making regular log cuts, I cut with the grain/longways to cut the logs into manageable pieces for firewood. What is a better chain/angle option for making these kinds of cuts, without going to the extreme of an actual 'ripping chain.'

I notice the full skip chains will dull a bit quicker, but they require less time to sharpen. I likely won't buy another full skip chain for this sized saw and based on my general cutting needs.

I haven't yet bought the new Stihl Hexa chain, but it seems like the Hexa file is taller and would offer better sharpening of the top plate. I'd also be interested if these chains keep their edge longer than other circle ground chains.

I'm open to hearing about square ground chains, in terms of benefits, downsides, etc.

Semi Chisel/Carbide Chains

I had great success last fall running my Stihl carbide saw chain. I was able to cut up around 50 dead pines and still had solid cutting power. This also included quite a bit of dirt time, probably at least a few minutes collectively of being run in the dirt based on the rotted trees I was cutting up. This is more of a semi chisel/thin kerf chain. Only downsides are it isnt a fast cutter, and I don't have a means of sharpening it. The other issue I had was chain stretch, where I had to remove a link on two occasions to keep it usable. My bar I ran was also worn down a bit, so I think that might have had something to do with it heating up.

For this size of saw, semi chisel chains aren't very popular, but they definitely hold their edge much longer. I run the picco chains on my pole saw and MS180 for limbing, and they do a great job of having a usable cutting edge even when contacted with dirt a bit. My Stihl 2 in 1 sharpener tends to do a better job of sharpening these chains because of the semi chisel shape, and lower profile of the cutting plate.


Beyond that, I personally never clean or oil my chains. Is it really worth it to clean the chain when you remove it, and then soak it in oil after you sharpen it? If so, what kind of cleaner/oil are you guys using?

TL;DR: I want to get better cutting performance and life out of my saw chains instead of having to dog my saw hard to get the chains to bite better as the sharpness dulls during use.

Thanks in advance.
I will try to summarize: Study geometry/ design of old two-man saw, you see L/R rakers controlled by depth gages, followed by a chisel that pops the chip out. With chain, Depth gages (0.025-0.030) still extremely important, side plate hits first cutting grooves each side, and angled top cutter chisel (actually bottom cutter?) pops out the chip. I have encountered people who never filed depth gages , had filed cutters to end-of-life and "wondered why the chain never cut well again?" Too deep and the cutter will dig in and saw will bog/ bind and wear out chain, bar and engine quick. Too shallow and you are spitting dust vs chips. On CLEANING most important ONLY if chain has sap buildup; cleaning a dirty chain of sap can restore cutting just like filing the depth gages. Sap buildup can make the chisel bounce to thin chips vs depth gage depth....but OILING, or more, lack of oil, can explain your stretch and need to remove links? If you are not using a half tank of oil per tank of fuel, you are not oiling properly. Extra oil never hurts. HOPE this helps.
 
I will try to summarize: Study geometry/ design of old two-man saw, you see L/R rakers controlled by depth gages, followed by a chisel that pops the chip out. With chain, Depth gages (0.025-0.030) still extremely important, side plate hits first cutting grooves each side, and angled top cutter chisel (actually bottom cutter?) pops out the chip. I have encountered people who never filed depth gages , had filed cutters to end-of-life and "wondered why the chain never cut well again?" Too deep and the cutter will dig in and saw will bog/ bind and wear out chain, bar and engine quick. Too shallow and you are spitting dust vs chips. On CLEANING most important ONLY if chain has sap buildup; cleaning a dirty chain of sap can restore cutting just like filing the depth gages. Sap buildup can make the chisel bounce to thin chips vs depth gage depth....but OILING, or more, lack of oil, can explain your stretch and need to remove links? If you are not using a half tank of oil per tank of fuel, you are not oiling properly. Extra oil never hurts. HOPE this helps.
Not sure where you got your info, but with a chainsaw chain, the point (also called the working corner, leading edge, etc....) is what hits the wood immediately, pretty much simultaneously as the depth gauge. The point continues to dig as the side plate carves the wood, with the union of the side plate and gullet breaking the curl/chip and aiding in removal.

The chain actually raises up off the bar as the cutter bites and digs into the wood. There is a "porposing" effect, like a dolphin.
 
Yeah, I think my brain fluttered and scrambled words between 2-man saw vs chain, LOL. I think I left out a few words that wudda made mine clearer, but your description is excellent, so will leave it there, :)
 
If you think a new chain cuts fastest then have a look at the Guilty of Treeson site on youtube where they try different grinds on a new chain. You can (and should) massively improve on a new chain IMHO.
 
A couple of points, and that's all they are.... points, not anything more than that.

"When a brand new chain has been worn enough and needs sharpened, I notice that the top plate cutter has a slight downward slope that has worn into it. When I use the Stihl 2 in 1 hand file, I use it according to directions, but the round file doesn't do much at all for the top plate, since its not tall enough (Yes I'm using the 3/8" Stihl file). It will sharpen the side plate a bit, and the gullet, and file down the raker as well. "

"needs sharpening".. Do you mean that the saw chain has gone from spitting flakes to spitting dust? If you wait until you're spitting dust, you have waited ( IMHO), far to long to sharpen. I use the Stihl 2 in 1 system, and I love it, but I sharpen after every tank of fuel, even if I'm still splitting flakes. Three strokes per cutter... If that won't keep it sharp, and it's five or seven strokes, then it needs new files. It should be called a "sharp keeper"... not a "sharpener" Also, if you look on the 2 in 1 sharpener, it's marked for a 5.2 MM ( 13/64 th ) replacement file, whereas the common 3/8 th file size is 5.5 MM ( 7/32 )... Yup.. that's a 1/64 th difference in file size diameter. How much does it matter? I don't know.. But it would seem to me that the same diameter file should be used repeatedly, not switched back and forth from a 13/64 to a 7 / 32. Understanding the difference is way over my pay grade, but, I would think that the different size of file, would impact the "hook" of the cutter. The shape of the hook would impact longevity of staying sharp. How much? I have no idea. Does it really matter? Once again, I have no idea. Personally, I just stick to one tank, touch up, and always use the 2 in 1 or always hand file.

Usually, I only use the grinder as a repair option, not as a sharpening device. ( Why do people put bullets and nails into trees?)

Full skip goes dull quicker? Maybe half the teeth to do all the work? They sharpen quicker because there's only half as many cutters to sharpen "-) IDK.

How does the saw chain work? I think that it's description sums it up well .. " It is of a self feeding design" the rakers are there to stop the cutters from diving into the wood and stopping the saw. If the saw chain is correctly ground, the saw will pull itself through the wood, you don't really have to push much. That being said, pushing down on the saw isn't good for the bar, and stretches the chain, and creates heat. Having to frequently dress the blade indicates other issues.

Cleaning a chain? I think it depends on what kind of wood you're cutting. After a day of cutting pine, I sharpen the chain, then remove it from the saw. Then, while I'm blowing out the saw with compressed air, I toss the chain into an ultra sonic bath.. warm water and a squirt of dish soap. Go have a beer while the cleaner does it's stuff. Then blow it clean with compressed air, and spray lubricant on it, and then re-mount. Then run the saw gently until the bar oil is visible as a line on wood. But, that's just me.. whatever works for you is just fine, but they should have regular cleaning.
 
One other point regarding chain stretch. A dull chain will likely cause more wear on the bar from increased pressure while cutting and will put more load on the engine. It will also get hotter, resulting in "stretch" which is actually the metal expanding as well as wear on the rivets.
 
When showing a customer what is sharp and what is dull (remembering that they have NO idea as the chain on the saw is rocked out and the bar has a HUGE burr)- If you look at the edge of the of the tooth in the like and you see a shiny line there, it is dull. And it ALL has to come of to be sharp again.
KISS for customers, usually the homeowners. Hopefully the pros know this.
 
FWIW, in my 35 years of running chainsaws, I've NEVER had to remove a link from a chian because it stretched so much that my tensioner ran out of adjustment. If you're running a 25" bar on a 362, your oil tank should be almost empty when you run out of fuel.

As far as chains go, like other have said, you are waiting WAY to long to sharpen that chain. If it touches dirt, even for a fraction of a second, its dull and needs sharpened immediately. Otherwise, it should be sharpened at least every other time you fill up with gas and oil. Just like with a regular knife, you should never ever need to make it sharp. It should already be sharp, you are just keeping it that way.

If you've run it to the point that there's a downward slope on the top plate, and you've had to take a link or two out of it, you've ruined it. Its trash, throw it away. You've worn it so bad that the pitch is no longer 3/8 which is now damaging the tip on your bar as well as the drive on your sprocket. Throw those chains away, replace your rim or sprocket, and have someone who knows what they are doing take a look at your bar to see if its toast or not.

Better yet, don't throw those trashed chains away quite yet. Get a couple of new files and sharpen the living crap out of them. Take 10 strokes on each tooth. Then go back and take 3 to 5 off each tooth until you've filed the top plate down to the witness line. Take a look at Buck'n Billy Ray's sharpening videos. I'm not a huge fan of his, but his videos DO show what the top plate and side plate should look like. Try do make your cutters look exactly like his. By the time you've sharpened away 2 entire chains, you should have the hang of it. More importantly, you should have learned your lesson to NEVER let a chain get that dull again. If you're hands aren't cramping when you're done, you still haven't learned your lesson so put another trashed chain on and get back to sharpening.

As far as cleaning chains, I've never cleaned one. Then again, all of my cutting is in hickory, locust, oak, and ash with an occasional silver maple thrown in just because I need the tree out of the way. If I were cutting pine, I suspect I'd need to clean my chains quite a bit.
 
Brilliant advice above. Not a fan of Bucking Billy but his sharpening videos are great. Just be careful about taking the gullet out with a 25" on a 362. That with low rakers will run horribly and snatch. My link to Jed was about square grind so don't get involved with that until you can sharpen 3/8 with a round file first.
 
I can get a chain to cut pretty good but I don't know if I'll ever get them to cut better than a new chain. I file and file away with my old Granberg File N Joint, I adjust my depth gauges, but they just never seem to be as good as new. I can't quite seem to get the leading edge as sharp no matter how I file the cutters.
 
I want to get better cutting performance and life out of my saw chains instead of having to dog my saw hard to get the chains to bite better as the sharpness dulls during use.

Thanks in advance.

My suggestion is to post up-close pics of your chain: (1) right when you think it is dull enough to need sharpening, and (2) after you have filed it.

Roy
 
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