Where’s the consumer market going

[maowwg]

Came across something in a 10 year old thread in which I found wisdom and a clue to where we may be going.

Just for fun and discussion.

The author made two solid points
1 The lifespan of consumer grade saws is in excess of the work ethic of the consumer. I.e. The vast majority of consumers don’t work their saws very many hours and aren’t willing to work enough hours to actually wear them out. That probably has not improved substantially in the last 10 years. Just saying.

He went on to say:
2. When properly maintained, consumer grade saws far outlast the consumer grade work ethic. I personally believe this to be true as I put 90 hours of cutting time - not work hours but actual cutting time - on a Poulan 3314 and pulled the muffler to inspect the p/c. Bottom line is the p/c looked clean and no visible wear. Compression was strong on my gage. No indication of wear after 90 hours of running with careful maintenance. I think it fair to say 90 hours exceeds majority of consumer needs.

So I think he’s right. Consumer gas saws can easily outlast consumer needs with proper maintenance.

Yet they are often deemed to be junk. So it must be improper maintenance or improper set up or improperly running of the saw keeping them from outlasting their owners expectations. (Lean carb settings, dull chains, poor storage, running out of bar oil or bad fuel mixes....)

Maybe this a case where the consumer is insufficiently invested in the longevity of his/her saw? Again it’s unlikely this has improved in the last 10 years.

So, what’s the right answer and where will the industry go? Build better quality saws and urge people to spend more to buy high quality gas saws even though they don’t need them? Assume people will want to be more educated and less “lazy” and will do maintenance and and take time to learn proper techniques? YouTube is full of counter examples to that notion

Will the industry find a way to build simpler to maintain cheap consumer gas saws with self adjusting carbs that run rich but still satisfy the EPA?
Is a useful 4 stroke chainsaw possible at the consumer price range? Do these factors mean a fover shift to progressively cheaper and better plug in and battery powered saws for the consumer market?

 

[irhunter]

I put 90 hours of cutting time - not work hours but actual cutting time - on a Poulan 3314 and pulled the muffler to inspect the p/c. Bottom line is the p/c looked clean and no visible wear. Compression was strong on my gage. No indication of wear after 90 hours of running with careful maintenance. I think it fair to say 90 hours exceeds majority of consumer needs.

people will want to be more educated and less “lazy” and will do maintenance and and take time to learn proper techniques?

I find your 90-hour observations interesting. I have not owned a Walmart saw...but, would like to. The first $25, near by, non-runner I see...I am buying.

I have always wondered if a lot of the bad rap these saws get is from guys who have never actually had one apart. Or, if they are comparing them to pro saws.

My WAG about what kills homeowner saws: wrong mix (incl water-cooled oil, and no oil), old mix, overheat due to dull chain and no-load running, and running with brake on. It may seem like all of those issues are so easy to avoid...but, you know, turns out, they are not.

I would not call the users lazy. Many just don't know. And, how the heck does one get "proper training"? It is not like, in most places, you can go down to the local high school and take a quality saw class at "adult ed."

To answer your question about the future of consumer saws...batteries.

 

[maowwg]

I agree. Admittedly a sample of one saw doesn’t prove a trend, but it does prove what’s possible. That along with fixing and re-selling 30 plus non running Poulans convinced me they aren’t being killed by hours.

I chose “lazy” over ignorant because I was typing on my phone ( essentially power of the internet in the palm of my hand) Now a days ignorant is equivalent to lazy or at least an inexcusable lack of basic curiosity for how the world works. What a fun and occasionally happy but terminally joyless existence.

 

[chipper1]

@pioneerguy600
Could we get this moved to the chainsaw forum, not many "buying" this here lol.

 

[pioneerguy600]

@pioneerguy600
Could we get this moved to the chainsaw forum, not many "buying" this here lol.

done.

 

[Bassmantweed]

I imagine the lack of use does more damage than use for homeowner saws.

 

[chipper1]

I imagine the lack of use does more damage than use for homeowner saws.

Yep/ storing them with non ethanol fuel.

overheat due to dull chain and no-load running,

And this.

 

[chipper1]

done.

You're the man!

 

[Backstage]

Couple thoughts.

Designed to last 90hrs…until they need maintenance the consumer won’t spring for?
IIRC the husky 455 has a sticker that says they’ll meet whatever EPA regs were current for 100hrs. I believe my 572xp says 300hrs.

How is the idea of making a tool that will outlast what an owner will use it for NOT a pro-sustainability stance? When a product goes to the landfill and a new one gets produced at the expense of energy and mined materials, that’s basically the opposite of sustainability. Perhaps we’re using that word differently.

As to the original question, I’m only paying much attention to what Husqvarna is doing, mainly with new stuff ending with XP, so that’s all I’m good to comment on. No reason to think Husky couldn’t be putting out HP/weight stuff on par with Stihl, but they seem to be focusing on heavier parts like bearings and the like. Their consumer-prosumer stuff like the 435, 440, 450, 455, 460 saws have been in production for the last 10ish years, which makes for a pretty straight trajectory.

 

[HarleyT]

done.

 

[TGM40ford]

Came across something in a 10 year old thread in which I found wisdom and a clue to where we may be going.

Just for fun and discussion.

The author made two solid points
1 The lifespan of consumer grade saws is in excess of the work ethic of the consumer. I.e. The vast majority of consumers don’t work their saws very many hours and aren’t willing to work enough hours to actually wear them out. That probably has not improved substantially in the last 10 years. Just saying.

He went on to say:
2. When properly maintained, consumer grade saws far outlast the consumer grade work ethic. I personally believe this to be true as I put 90 hours of cutting time - not work hours but actual cutting time - on a Poulan 3314 and pulled the muffler to inspect the p/c. Bottom line is the p/c looked clean and no visible wear. Compression was strong on my gage. No indication of wear after 90 hours of running with careful maintenance. I think it fair to say 90 hours exceeds majority of consumer needs.

So I think he’s right. Consumer gas saws can easily outlast consumer needs with proper maintenance.

Yet they are often deemed to be junk. So it must be improper maintenance or improper set up or improperly running of the saw keeping them from outlasting their owners expectations. (Lean carb settings, dull chains, poor storage, running out of bar oil or bad fuel mixes....)

Maybe this a case where the consumer is insufficiently invested in the longevity of his/her saw? Again it’s unlikely this has improved in the last 10 years.

So, what’s the right answer and where will the industry go? Build better quality saws and urge people to spend more to buy high quality gas saws even though they don’t need them? Assume people will want to be more educated and less “lazy” and will do maintenance and and take time to learn proper techniques? YouTube is full of counter examples to that notion

Will the industry find a way to build simpler to maintain cheap consumer gas saws with self adjusting carbs that run rich but still satisfy the EPA?
Is a useful 4 stroke chainsaw possible at the consumer price range? Do these factors mean a fover shift to progressively cheaper and better plug in and battery powered saws for the consumer market?

Came across something in a 10 year old thread in which I found wisdom and a clue to where we may be going.

Just for fun and discussion.

The author made two solid points
1 The lifespan of consumer grade saws is in excess of the work ethic of the consumer. I.e. The vast majority of consumers don’t work their saws very many hours and aren’t willing to work enough hours to actually wear them out. That probably has not improved substantially in the last 10 years. Just saying.

He went on to say:
2. When properly maintained, consumer grade saws far outlast the consumer grade work ethic. I personally believe this to be true as I put 90 hours of cutting time - not work hours but actual cutting time - on a Poulan 3314 and pulled the muffler to inspect the p/c. Bottom line is the p/c looked clean and no visible wear. Compression was strong on my gage. No indication of wear after 90 hours of running with careful maintenance. I think it fair to say 90 hours exceeds majority of consumer needs.

So I think he’s right. Consumer gas saws can easily outlast consumer needs with proper maintenance.

Yet they are often deemed to be junk. So it must be improper maintenance or improper set up or improperly running of the saw keeping them from outlasting their owners expectations. (Lean carb settings, dull chains, poor storage, running out of bar oil or bad fuel mixes....)

Maybe this a case where the consumer is insufficiently invested in the longevity of his/her saw? Again it’s unlikely this has improved in the last 10 years.

So, what’s the right answer and where will the industry go? Build better quality saws and urge people to spend more to buy high quality gas saws even though they don’t need them? Assume people will want to be more educated and less “lazy” and will do maintenance and and take time to learn proper techniques? YouTube is full of counter examples to that notion

Will the industry find a way to build simpler to maintain cheap consumer gas saws with self adjusting carbs that run rich but still satisfy the EPA?
Is a useful 4 stroke chainsaw possible at the consumer price range? Do these factors mean a fover shift to progressively cheaper and better plug in and battery powered saws for the consumer market?

The replacement consumer saw chain business runs along the same lines as the consumer saw business. Most consumers buy a replacement chain put it on their saw when they need to cut something, dead tree on the property. Then they put the saw away until next time. Then they pull the saw out next time ( maybe a month maybe couple years )and cut and lets say they dull the chain. They throw the chain away saying to themselves that chain lasted pretty good and it only cost me $18.99 to replace it at the Big Box store, the price of 3 Starbucks. So because of low usage there is no incentive to learn to sharpen a chain, easier to toss it and replace it once a year or so.
Home Depot puts a new chain on a saw every time they rent it out, when the saw comes in from one rental the chain is replaced and the old one tossed in the trash, regardless of the condition. They found this to be more cost efficient then running grinders. When they first started renting saws they installed Oregon grinders at all locations. However due to staff turn over and staff changing positions they found they couldn't keep trained people who knew how to sharpen chain. So I was working for Carlton when we made the proposal of the throw away chain program, basically a new chain for every rental. HD loved it and got rid of all their chain grinders and went with the program.
They keep the bars on the saws for 3 rentals and then toss the bars again regardless of the condition.
We are a throw away society for the most part (not counting the folks on Arboristsite of course)
I remember several years ago when I think it was Ariens brought out a Chinese lawnmower engine that had no replacement parts you could buy, you couldn't even add oil if I remember correctly, totally sealed. It had a decent warranty for 3.5HP engine I think a couple years and if it failed outside of warranty period you tossed it and bought a new one. I personally never saw one but it was all the talk at the Expo show one year. Not sure if they even produced it or it was just a proposal.

 

[Mad Professor]

Hell

 

[Howard Justice]

The replacement consumer saw chain business runs along the same lines as the consumer saw business. Most consumers buy a replacement chain put it on their saw when they need to cut something, dead tree on the property. Then they put the saw away until next time. Then they pull the saw out next time ( maybe a month maybe couple years )and cut and lets say they dull the chain. They throw the chain away saying to themselves that chain lasted pretty good and it only cost me $18.99 to replace it at the Big Box store, the price of 3 Starbucks. So because of low usage there is no incentive to learn to sharpen a chain, easier to toss it and replace it once a year or so.
Home Depot puts a new chain on a saw every time they rent it out, when the saw comes in from one rental the chain is replaced and the old one tossed in the trash, regardless of the condition. They found this to be more cost efficient then running grinders. When they first started renting saws they installed Oregon grinders at all locations. However due to staff turn over and staff changing positions they found they couldn't keep trained people who knew how to sharpen chain. So I was working for Carlton when we made the proposal of the throw away chain program, basically a new chain for every rental. HD loved it and got rid of all their chain grinders and went with the program.
They keep the bars on the saws for 3 rentals and then toss the bars again regardless of the condition.
We are a throw away society for the most part (not counting the folks on Arboristsite of course)
I remember several years ago when I think it was Ariens brought out a Chinese lawnmower engine that had no replacement parts you could buy, you couldn't even add oil if I remember correctly, totally sealed. It had a decent warranty for 3.5HP engine I think a couple years and if it failed outside of warranty period you tossed it and bought a new one. I personally never saw one but it was all the talk at the Expo show one year. Not sure if they even produced it or it was just a proposal.

Truly Fascinating! Thanks for sharing this…. Guess some will now search HD garbage… what’s avg cost for this for HD… 45-70$?

 

[Canyon Angler]

Dayum, omma hafta start rootin around in HD dumpsters!
It's a dirty job but I guess I'm just a humanitarian willing to make the sacrifice to save the planet.
Just consider me the Albert Schweitzer or Dalai Lama of Chainsaws.

 

[Wood Doctor]

Hell

Also Broke.