A square grinder. Most are/were made by Simington, Silvey, and Ziegelmeier
Your thoughts on square filed chains.
- Thread starter Den
- Start date
Help Support Arborist Forum:
Dangerous
ArboristSite Lurker
Black Locust is hard hard wood
More BTU than Oak. One tree one file job. Not a pro.
D
Den!
I took up square filing about 2 years ago, if only as a novelty and to broaden my skillset. Technically, it would dull more quickly than round-filed full chisel, simply because the resultant angles are more acute. Having said that, I have not found it as "flimsy" as you might imagine. However, I reserve it for clean, wet wood only.
I really experienced the speed difference between the two filing techniques. I put my 59cc 361 up against the 72cc 381, and in 3 cuts through 6" wet, smooth-bark bluegum, the 361 won each time by about a second or two. This has no real application in the real world (who cuts trees with a stopwatch running?), but it proved to me that the square-grind really does outperform the regular grind in speed. Of course, it's more suited to racing competitions. I simply keep one chain square ground just to keep my skills up.
My 2c, hope it helps.
Mike
I took up square filing about 2 years ago, if only as a novelty and to broaden my skillset. Technically, it would dull more quickly than round-filed full chisel, simply because the resultant angles are more acute. Having said that, I have not found it as "flimsy" as you might imagine. However, I reserve it for clean, wet wood only.
I really experienced the speed difference between the two filing techniques. I put my 59cc 361 up against the 72cc 381, and in 3 cuts through 6" wet, smooth-bark bluegum, the 361 won each time by about a second or two. This has no real application in the real world (who cuts trees with a stopwatch running?), but it proved to me that the square-grind really does outperform the regular grind in speed. Of course, it's more suited to racing competitions. I simply keep one chain square ground just to keep my skills up.
My 2c, hope it helps.
Mike
It is a grinding machine made specifically for square grinding.
Square Cutter
Chain Sharpening Enthusiast
Square Cutter
Chain Sharpening Enthusiast
Square Cutter
Chain Sharpening Enthusiast
I worked on pulling a 3ft cedar stump with a bottle jack, come along, a shovel and a pickaxe and a hi lift jack and a chainsaw. Couldn't get a machine behind the house so had to go man power. Many hours later the dang stump finally came up. Not a good place for any chainsaw chain. I had to do a lot of hand filing.
When I first decided to try a square filed chain I tried to hand file. For the $13 investment for a bevel file, I thought I'd give er a go. Converting round filed chisel chain to square was not working for me so I picked up a Simington. Well it was a long time coming and I saved up. I bit the bullet and got it because I'm a big kid with an awesome hobby. (37 years old) . I tried some angles, watched some youtube videos and figured out how the machine worked. Wow is all I can say.
I cut a good size fir tree at my aunts house and I just loved the buttery smooth feed in the face cuts and fast smooth back cuts. My favorite part of the whole experience was cutting with my 026 with an 18" bar and square ground full comp .050 3/8 chain. It really threw chips but my hands were cramping up quite a bit and felt really nervous because I wasn't sure if I could finish this thing. I climb telephone poles for a living not trees. So the height wasn't my issue it was my dang hands were dieing and cramping. Cutting my faces on my left and then back cutting on my right. Going up and getting all the limbs was a lot of work and then topping it was such a relief and I thought awesome everything is down hill from here. Well it was but what a huge amount of work that I did not realize. The tree service wanted to charge like $700 to take the tree down so I just took on the project myself. Anyway, the point of the story was that I cut up the whole dang tree on a square ground chain without sharpening it once. Given it was up in the tree and it was green wood an not a lot of dirt up there but I was impressed that the chain was still cutting quick and awesome. I did cut the last 15ft of stump with my 372 but still wow.
Anyway that was years ago but I now know why they charge so much to cut a tree. And also the degrees of sharpness on the square grind is adjustable. You could make a very durable square cutter that still cuts smoother and faster than your average round filed cutter. But then it just goes up in sharpness from there. Up to 15-20% faster than a round filed chain according to the internet experts as I have never tested this but it feels about right. So I think for the enthusiast, hobby saw fanatic, professional arborist, logger and lunatic firewood cutter woods camping marshmallow roasting basket like myself the square cutter is for you. It's not about the destination it's about the journey to get there.
When I first decided to try a square filed chain I tried to hand file. For the $13 investment for a bevel file, I thought I'd give er a go. Converting round filed chisel chain to square was not working for me so I picked up a Simington. Well it was a long time coming and I saved up. I bit the bullet and got it because I'm a big kid with an awesome hobby. (37 years old) . I tried some angles, watched some youtube videos and figured out how the machine worked. Wow is all I can say.
I cut a good size fir tree at my aunts house and I just loved the buttery smooth feed in the face cuts and fast smooth back cuts. My favorite part of the whole experience was cutting with my 026 with an 18" bar and square ground full comp .050 3/8 chain. It really threw chips but my hands were cramping up quite a bit and felt really nervous because I wasn't sure if I could finish this thing. I climb telephone poles for a living not trees. So the height wasn't my issue it was my dang hands were dieing and cramping. Cutting my faces on my left and then back cutting on my right. Going up and getting all the limbs was a lot of work and then topping it was such a relief and I thought awesome everything is down hill from here. Well it was but what a huge amount of work that I did not realize. The tree service wanted to charge like $700 to take the tree down so I just took on the project myself. Anyway, the point of the story was that I cut up the whole dang tree on a square ground chain without sharpening it once. Given it was up in the tree and it was green wood an not a lot of dirt up there but I was impressed that the chain was still cutting quick and awesome. I did cut the last 15ft of stump with my 372 but still wow.
Anyway that was years ago but I now know why they charge so much to cut a tree. And also the degrees of sharpness on the square grind is adjustable. You could make a very durable square cutter that still cuts smoother and faster than your average round filed cutter. But then it just goes up in sharpness from there. Up to 15-20% faster than a round filed chain according to the internet experts as I have never tested this but it feels about right. So I think for the enthusiast, hobby saw fanatic, professional arborist, logger and lunatic firewood cutter woods camping marshmallow roasting basket like myself the square cutter is for you. It's not about the destination it's about the journey to get there.
Square Cutter
Chain Sharpening Enthusiast
I think the square ground cutters a more versatile. Meaning you can make a square ground cutter fairly blunt for durability for longer cutting or you can make it very sharp for race chain and obviously anywhere in between. Square filed or ground cutters perform noticeably smoother and faster but the cost is high for grinders and is more time consuming for hand filers until you get good at it. Got to pay to play so to speak. Or put in your time.
Square Cutter
Chain Sharpening Enthusiast
Den that sounds about right to me. I've square ground full chisel 3/8lp and .325 chain on my grinder and they cut like butter. I might stick with 3/8 chain for hand filing because the tooth is taller. The pro that I see with square ground chain is that you can change how dull or sharp you want your cutters and if you wanted to cut dry hard wood you could make your cutter more blunt for durability or you could make them razor blade sharp for green softwoods or any variation between. I think the speed, versatility and smoothness of cut characteristics go to the square ground cutter. The round filed definitely wins the cake when it comes to cost and ease of filing. I think one of the biggest drawbacks of square filing is the learning curve to learn what you want your tooth to look like and then executing what you want for all of your teeth so that they are the same.
Husky77
ArboristSite Operative
If you know your cutting dirty wood why not try a tungsten chain, I havent but can see the advantage. Or wouldn't be a case of it also stays blunt longer?
Since this has been opened back up, I'll add my .02 lol.
First, Yes BL has more BTU than red oak, but there are other species of oak that are higher, white and live to name a couple.
Second, one tree one file job, are you hitting dirt, is the tree punky in the middle(not normal with BL), is this a 30" tree, or do you have too much side plate and top plate angle and the chain is dulling quick.
As far as how durable a square cutter is vs a round, using the same chain(manufacture and model, such as both being Oregon EXL), I find that square will be a bit more durable than round, but it won't cut 15% faster if you're using a work grind in hardwood(with the new chains, maybe with poor grinds on older chains?).
When I first started converting chains I believed the myth that square dulled quicker, but that's because I was converting softer chains so it would be easier to file them and I could save on files. The speed was up because I was also filing them fairly aggressive, which also caused them to dull even quicker. Once I bought a grinder I was able to make better comparisons using the same hardness chain.
My favorite thing about square chain is how smooth it cuts. I can cut closer to the ground without hitting the ground or any other obstacles such as rocks, nails, concrete, without hitting them because square is so smooth. It also makes cuts more precise when falling as it isn't grabby. That being said, the newer chains cut much better in all these areas.
And while it will be more durable in dirty conditions, as @huskihl said, I would be using a semi-chisel for those conditions. I wouldn't want to trash a chain that takes more time and effort to make it cut well if I didn't have to. Semi and round filed/ground for dirty wood, not a nice square chain regardless of the fact that it's a bit more durable.
Here's a comparison of a factory round ground chain and a durable square ground chain.
That's a very general couple statements.
First, Yes BL has more BTU than red oak, but there are other species of oak that are higher, white and live to name a couple.
Second, one tree one file job, are you hitting dirt, is the tree punky in the middle(not normal with BL), is this a 30" tree, or do you have too much side plate and top plate angle and the chain is dulling quick.
As far as how durable a square cutter is vs a round, using the same chain(manufacture and model, such as both being Oregon EXL), I find that square will be a bit more durable than round, but it won't cut 15% faster if you're using a work grind in hardwood(with the new chains, maybe with poor grinds on older chains?).
When I first started converting chains I believed the myth that square dulled quicker, but that's because I was converting softer chains so it would be easier to file them and I could save on files. The speed was up because I was also filing them fairly aggressive, which also caused them to dull even quicker. Once I bought a grinder I was able to make better comparisons using the same hardness chain.
My favorite thing about square chain is how smooth it cuts. I can cut closer to the ground without hitting the ground or any other obstacles such as rocks, nails, concrete, without hitting them because square is so smooth. It also makes cuts more precise when falling as it isn't grabby. That being said, the newer chains cut much better in all these areas.
And while it will be more durable in dirty conditions, as @huskihl said, I would be using a semi-chisel for those conditions. I wouldn't want to trash a chain that takes more time and effort to make it cut well if I didn't have to. Semi and round filed/ground for dirty wood, not a nice square chain regardless of the fact that it's a bit more durable.
Here's a comparison of a factory round ground chain and a durable square ground chain.
As some have mentioned, a square cut chisel bit can have any type of angles the user desires. One of the best grinds I've ever had the privilege to be shown is one that I modeled my own setup after. A steeper side plate angle along with a lesser top plate angle on the perimeter, & both the cutting bevels, top & side, a lot more obtuse & stout than what most guys do.
I see an extremely acute angle on the top plate edge frequently. Those go dull quickly. There is one sweetass happy medium where a steeper side plate perimeter angle pulls the bit into the wood more efficiently & the more obtuse cutting edges hold up to the elements & sheer run time.
My friend's chain has a special property amongst square chains in that it was VERY smooth. Absolutely no grabbing into the kerf. HOWEVER, if you put some (a little) muscle behind it, the chain would cut faster. Faster without losing RPM like you'd expect.. very little drag or inefficiency.. His grind was freakish in this nature. Never seen anyone achieve the same either. Not that I know everyone....
I don't pay huge attention to chip size, shapez
, etc. But the chips or rather shavings his chains pull out of piss fir, Doug fir, spruce, etc, are insanely uniform. Like hard to tell one shaving from the other with the naked eye. All the width of the top plate & roughly 1" long. Like little pieces of linguini Cut up.
A few more things, his side plate edge only went down about 1/16" from the top plate.
& he was not a gullet cleaner! Maybe twice a chain he'd wack out the gullet! I haven't used my Simington since I moved, but I can unpack it & show some pics here in the future.
Thanks Mr. Bond for sharing a chain with 3 generations of R&D behind it with me!!!
I see an extremely acute angle on the top plate edge frequently. Those go dull quickly. There is one sweetass happy medium where a steeper side plate perimeter angle pulls the bit into the wood more efficiently & the more obtuse cutting edges hold up to the elements & sheer run time.
My friend's chain has a special property amongst square chains in that it was VERY smooth. Absolutely no grabbing into the kerf. HOWEVER, if you put some (a little) muscle behind it, the chain would cut faster. Faster without losing RPM like you'd expect.. very little drag or inefficiency.. His grind was freakish in this nature. Never seen anyone achieve the same either. Not that I know everyone....
I don't pay huge attention to chip size, shapez
, etc. But the chips or rather shavings his chains pull out of piss fir, Doug fir, spruce, etc, are insanely uniform. Like hard to tell one shaving from the other with the naked eye. All the width of the top plate & roughly 1" long. Like little pieces of linguini Cut up.
A few more things, his side plate edge only went down about 1/16" from the top plate.
& he was not a gullet cleaner! Maybe twice a chain he'd wack out the gullet! I haven't used my Simington since I moved, but I can unpack it & show some pics here in the future.
Thanks Mr. Bond for sharing a chain with 3 generations of R&D behind it with me!!!
There're a few minor adjustments to do. You might spot the issue. This is pretty close, though. This is also neither 75ck, or 75cj which I've been using for years. This is a full comp .050 gauge driver chain I picked up at a local saw shop.
Couple of square filed , as you can tell one is faster than the other, but the other will last longer because of angle differences. 
Looks nice.
Oregon EXL chain, good hard chain. That would make a solid work grind.
Great looking hardwood cutter
Thanks. It will do well in softwood, too.Great looking hardwood cutter
Definitely.
I said hardwood because I know what you’ve done to the wheel to be able to grind it that blunt so it will last. I see several pics of the shelf being way down by the tie strap and know the cutter won’t last long before it’s dull.
