Why do "Chinesium" chainsaws need a richer oil mix?

[fields_mj]

1. Typical American point of view. IE it's better to buy piles a junk than one quality piece.
2. Another typical American viewpoint of many Americans.

That's because most people treat power tools as assets not as collectables that should retain, or even appreciate in value over time. When a "quality piece" costs over $1,500 and a single "piece of junk" costs less than $400, will run at least 90% as strong, and last at least 3/4 as long, all of the sudden the "quality piece" doesn't seem so nice. Just because I'd never wear out a new MS661 doesn't mean that I'd ever wear out a new G660, so spending the extra $1,100 would be foolish so long as I was willing and able to do my own wrenching. Lets be honest, for those of us who's budgets limit us to older used equipment, wrenching on stuff is part of our daily life. I'm not sure about anyone else, but my 20-30 year old Stihls are prone to have a problem from time to time. I find myself having to wrench on them more than anyone has to wrench on the blue saws.

If I were in a position where upgrading to a a stronger, lighter saw (ie 260 vs 261, 460 vs 462, 361 vs 400) would literally pay for itself in a years time, there's NO WAY I'd waste my time on a clone. Since I'm not in that position, the clones are a good option for me.

 

[bwalker]

That's because most people treat power tools as assets not as collectables that should retain, or even appreciate in value over time. When a "quality piece" costs over $1,500 and a single "piece of junk" costs less than $400, will run at least 90% as strong, and last at least 3/4 as long, all of the sudden the "quality piece" doesn't seem so nice. Just because I'd never wear out a new MS661 doesn't mean that I'd ever wear out a new G660, so spending the extra $1,100 would be foolish so long as I was willing and able to do my own wrenching. Lets be honest, for those of us who's budgets limit us to older used equipment, wrenching on stuff is part of our daily life. I'm not sure about anyone else, but my 20-30 year old Stihls are prone to have a problem from time to time. I find myself having to wrench on them more than anyone has to wrench on the blue saws.

If I were in a position where upgrading to a a stronger, lighter saw (ie 260 vs 2610, 460 vs 462, 361 vs 400) would literally pay for itself in a years time, there's NO WAY I'd waste my time on a clone. Since I'm not in that position, the clones are a good option for me.

Last 3/4 as long is up for debate.. I seriously doubt it.
If I couldn't afford a new 661, I would buy a nice used 661.
But let's be honest here $1500 is peanuts. You probably spend more on your phone bill over the course of a year.

 

[sean donato]

Reasons?? Sure.. I'll play the Devil's advocate..

1) You can get 4 of them for the price of 1 name brand one.

2) At the price point, well, think "Dollar Store".. They're disposable!

3) A lot of them don't cost much more than a new bar and chain.

4) A lot of people don't like anyone else putting a hand on their saw.

5) Perfect saw for someone who wants to "help", but didn't bring their saw.

6) Perfect "loaner" saw.

7) Perfect saw for the Homeowner who doesn't go through more than a couple of tanks a year.

8) Perfect for the homeowner who uses fuel with Ethanol in it, leaves the fuel in for the winter, and then wonders why it won't run. Pay shop rate of $100.00 an hour ( plus parts ) for service.. Nah.. just get another one, and He'll have spare bar, chain, and parts.

I've been trying to stay out of this debate as I don't really care what anyone buys, and I have clone saw, used am parts etc.
Having said that, the only point I can agree with is #1. #2 &3 are a repeat of #1. #4 applies to enthusiasts and possibly a few others. Not most pros, or home owners.
#5&6 are again repeats and there are so few people I'd give a saw to, let alone anything 2 stroke they are moot imo.
#7, I work on a lot of o.p.e. on the side, i don't turn any brand away. It's mostly stuff you can buy at a big box store, followed by lowes/home depot quality stuff, then places like ace hardware/o.p.e. dealer brands. Usually it's the same quality stuff as home depot, ie homeowner products. Other then for my own entertainment, I've never seen any neo tech/holtzforma etc brand that wasn't a store brand. Never once a pro level saw, most the guys I work on that have pro level stuff are strictly stihl, husqy and echo (in that order.) It seems the guys (people) that are handy with their own stuff(enthusiasts again) will entertain the clone market.
#8, big box stores have this covered even dealers cheap saw lines have this covered basically disposable junk, which you covered previously in your list.

 

[GeneralKayoss]

Last 3/4 as long is up for debate.. I seriously doubt it.
If I couldn't afford a new 661, I would buy a nice used 661.
But let's be honest here $1500 is peanuts. You probably spend more on your phone bill over the course of a year.

More people living week to week right now than they have since the Great Depression. Probably more given the population increase. I wouldn't call $1500 peanuts. Nor would I spend $1500 on a 661 when I can buy 4 complete G660's for that. You think that one Stihl will outlast 4 of them? I highly doubt it...

Do you even own a clone saw?

 

[bwalker]

More people living week to week right now than they have since the Great Depression. Probably more given the population increase. I wouldn't call $1500 peanuts. Nor would I spend $1500 on a 661 when I can buy 4 complete G660's for that. You think that one Stihl will outlast 4 of them? I highly doubt it...

Do you even own a clone saw?

I will not own a chicom knockoff saw and would never consider doing so.
I get it. You are the typical American that buys piles of crap instead of one good item. It's a free country do as you please. Just don't try to convince the rest of us the saws aren't garbage.

 

[Chucksta]

OMG!... What have I done!! Oh the horror.. What about the children!!
Civilization as we know it is doomed !! We're on the highway to hell. " Pop culture reference".. LOL

All I wanted to know was why the "Chinesium" saw manual called for a 25 (ish) to 1 mix ratio..

Suddenly, well actually, at a medium pace, the thread has slowly but surely turned into a debate about the relative value of a "Chinesium" saw against a known name brand saw..

What is this.. what is that.. why would you do.. What do you think is important when you buy a saw..

Seriously guys, stop it. !!

Opinions are like bellybuttons and butt holes.. Everyone has one..

Wow!

So.. In other late breaking news..

As the common opinion as to mix ratios seemed to point to that the recommended mix ratios were because the manufacturer would not be able to be sure what mix oil was going to be used by the end purchaser.
I agree, that made total sense to me.

On the 25 CC top handle, I ran the first tank dry, and the refilled with Amsoil Saber, and Ethanol free Premium at 50 (ish) to 1. I tuned it, (leaned it out a bit), and it runs like a champ.. Only issue I had was that the saw wouldn't run for more than 20 seconds when on it's side. I pulled the gas line out, nipped a half inch off it, and threw on a heavier "clunker". It now screams no matter which way it's oriented. No worries.. It has it's idiosyncrasies, but I'm spoiled by my 2 Echo 355T"S. Other than a Stihl 201, top handle Arborist saws just don't get much better than that.

I wanted a top handle saw that I wouldn't care if I stuffed it into dirt, fell off the back of my truck, got run over, or just died from natural causes. That's exactly what I got. I wanted an "other " saw that I could bring out, not use, keep as a spare, and that's exactly what I got. For a very cheap price.

This doesn't have to do with Global politics. It doesn't have to do with American values, it was just about mix ratios.,

So, please stop the 1@@#$ issing contest about their value.. The question about the mix ratio has been more than adequately answered, and thanks to all that contributed on that topic. Seriously, I appreciate all the knowledgeable and informed opinions.

Let's, please, put this thread to rest.

Thanks..

 

[GeneralKayoss]

Let's, please, put this thread to rest.

Or we make it the official Clone vs Original thread

I don't get why someone would chime in just to tell you your saw is trash when you asked a question about oil mix and they don't even own one.

 

[thompsoncustom]

Last 3/4 as long is up for debate.. I seriously doubt it.
If I couldn't afford a new 661, I would buy a nice used 661.
But let's be honest here $1500 is peanuts. You probably spend more on your phone bill over the course of a year.

Let's, please, put this thread to rest.

Thanks..

Ah come on not yet I got one for you guys to think about.

If $1500 is the target price what makes a better saw a new stihl 661 or a clone 660? The real stihl is 100% stock of course but with the clone saw you have $1300 dollars to play with. So you could send it off to a pro porter and have a OEM cylinder/piston put on it and have it ported but you'd still have a lot of money left over.

I will not own a chicom knockoff saw and would never consider doing so.
I get it. You are the typical American that buys piles of crap instead of one good item. It's a free country do as you please. Just don't try to convince the rest of us the saws aren't garbage.

So only name brand chicom saws for you? The fact is almost nothing is 100% made in the US anymore else your getting eggs from the neighbor down the road some part of the process in making an item(and even the egg) comes from overseas, not saying I like it just the way it is.

 

[Tomos770]

As an EU forum user...

I dont see any need for a quarel.....since EVERYTHING nowadays is made in Čhang-Šlang.....even many brand names....

Hope that war on our eastern flank.....and possible one with China will sober us...so that we (western world) will start producing stuff domestically...

 

[diver64]

Last 3/4 as long is up for debate.. I seriously doubt it.
If I couldn't afford a new 661, I would buy a nice used 661.
But let's be honest here $1500 is peanuts. You probably spend more on your phone bill over the course of a year.

Yeah but the overwhelming number of people out there don't use a chainsaw several times a day or even once a day. A logger will use a saw more in one day than the typical homeowner will in a year.
Take hand tools for example. I poured a footing for a new bathroom and needed a hammer drill to set several bolts. I most likely won't do that again for years. I didn't flag down a Snap On truck, I went to Harbor Freight. Worked fine for what I needed.

 

[GeneralKayoss]

I didn't flag down a Snap On truck, I went to Harbor Freight. Worked fine for what I needed.

If clone saws are the Harbor Freight of Chainsaws, I'm OK with that. I Harbor Freight.

 

[bwalker]

Yeah but the overwhelming number of people out there don't use a chainsaw several times a day or even once a day. A logger will use a saw more in one day than the typical homeowner will in a year.
Take hand tools for example. I poured a footing for a new bathroom and needed a hammer drill to set several bolts. I most likely won't do that again for years. I didn't flag down a Snap On truck, I went to Harbor Freight. Worked fine for what I needed.

There are many alternatives to Chinese junk in a variety of price ranges.
I won't buy Snap On either.

 

[lone wolf]

 

[Chucksta]

Ok... It would seem that this p@@sing contest is going to continue.

As such, let me pour a little more gas on the fire.

Let the flames begin!!

Theoretically, the 2 stroke engine should have a long, long service life, as once again, "theoretically", the piston doesn't actually touch the walls of the cylinder much, if at all. It's the rings that contact the cylinder walls, and they are held away from the cylinder walls by the microscopic layer of oil, emulsified in the mist of the atomized fuel from the carb. That's one of the nice things about a 2 stroke.. It always runs on dead fresh lubricants, not swimming in it's own by-products of combustion like a 4 stroke. Hence, it's life expectancy would seem to be determined more by the quality and amount of lubricants used, than by the metallurgy of it's components.

Clutch components, fuel lines, exterior plastics, may of course, vary from one manufacturer to another. Undoubtedly, a Stihl high end saw will be more likely to withstand an "oops", than a cheaper Chineesium saw. That being said, When you get down into any saw that is worth less than $300.00.. There is no longer ( IMHO) comparison to ANY brand of pro saw. Just because it's orange, doesn't mean that it's an old school Stihl. Just because it's green, doesn't mean that it's an old school John Deere.

Here... let me give you an example of what I mean..

https://kooybros.com/stihl-ms-170-chainsaw-30-1cc-with-16-bar

Yup.. $199.00 CDN.. What's that in USD? It's less than $150.00 USD.. So.. let's break that down a bit, shall we?

Retail always has a mark up .. Let's do this in CDN dollars, so w can start with the $200.00 figure..

The Dealer will make a minimum of 50% on the sale.. So, now it's a Dealer cost item of maybe $100.00 to $150.00. Max.

That means that Stihl also made a profit on the sale of the saw to the dealership of at least 25%.. So now the manufacturers cost, out the door to the Dealership, is in the $75.00 to $100.00 range.

Stihl also has to pay it's employees, and pay them far , far more than a Chinese employee, they also have to contribute to their pension plans, pay their Workman's Comp premiums, amortize the costs of depreciation of material assets ( building, equipment, etc..

Arguably, the cost of manufacturing a $200.00 saw is around $50.00 or less. At that cost of Manufacturing, do you really think that a "Chineesium" saw, without all that bloated infrastructure, is really less well constructed than a cheap Stihl?

IMHO, when it's cheap, it's cheaply made, no matter by which manufacturer, or where they are located.,

Comparing a $200.00 "Chinesium" saw to a $1,500 Stihl, is an apples to oranges debate.

To be fair, compare them on a "Bang for the buck" basis.. Even the playing field..

Let the games begin!!

 

[diver64]

Bang for the buck considering what you are going to be doing with a product and for how long is a great way to think of it. As I mentioned in a different thread, I leave an $89 chinese saw at my camp for occasional clearing and a cord of wood every couple of years. Flexing my "I just bought a 500i and everyone else is stupid if they don't get one" muscle is silly. It sits there and I bought all off the likely parts that may go wrong for another $75? So can rebuild as needed. Pretty sure it will last years.
As for the "Chinese parts are crap" crowd I've got a 1997 CRV that I've been buying the cheapest Chinese Amazon parts for I can find as a test. Muffler, tie rods, ball joints, water pump, struts, fuel pump etc. All fit like OEM and work fine, so far, and I've saved thousands off OEM.

 

[2StrokeFondler]

The Dealer will make a minimum of 50% on the sale.

No.

 

[GeneralKayoss]

There are many alternatives to Chinese junk in a variety of price ranges.
I won't buy Snap On either.

Like what? Craftsman? Poulan? lol. I'd put Holzfforma a tier ahead of them. You're missing the point here, there isn't a saw you can buy on the market that isn't full of Chinese parts already. Stihl, Echo, Husky, you name it, all sourcing parts from China in 2024.

 

[bwalker]

Like what? Craftsman? Poulan? lol. I'd put Holzfforma a tier ahead of them. You're missing the point here, there isn't a saw you can buy on the market that isn't full of Chinese parts already. Stihl, Echo, Husky, you name it, all sourcing parts from China in 2024.

How about Echo for starters.
German made Stihl and Swedish made Husky are not full of Chinese parts either. But even if they where I trust Stihl or Husky to ensure quality rather than same unreachable company that makes counterfeit copy's of Huskys and Stihls.
How long do you think it will be before the EPA catches on to these counterfeiting schemes?

 

[Burning man]

Like what? Craftsman? Poulan? lol. I'd put Holzfforma a tier ahead of them. You're missing the point here, there isn't a saw you can buy on the market that isn't full of Chinese parts already. Stihl, Echo, Husky, you name it, all sourcing parts from China in 2024.

I'd call that debatable considering what I've seen posted of holzfforma and neotec vs the machine work that ive seen in the craftsman s162 which is really nìce.

How about Echo for starters.
German made Stihl and Swedish made Husky are not full of Chinese parts either. But even if they where I trust Stihl or Husky to ensure quality rather than same unreachable company that makes counterfeit copy's of Huskys and Stihls.
How long do you think it will be before the EPA catches on to these counterfeiting schemes?

Echo has had a long time to improve the marketing of it's saws and they did better with the 2511 but with the rest of the lineup there is almost never mentioned. WE know they make a great saw but I can tell you that my 3 neighbors and their cousins sisters uncle doesn't, but they know stihl and husqvarna and stihl has dealer not far away. Echo hasn't done good marketing or building a true dealer network.

Well, they've had over 20 year's to catch on, they haven't and don't seem to care. If it wasn't legal amazon wouldnt carry them. Amazon has stopped shipping them to California because of our small engine law.

 

[lwmibc]

FWIW--an owners manual I read for a Joncutter 5800 clearly stated to run 25:1 for the first 20 hours of operation, then change to 50:1. Seemed perfectly simple, logical and reasonable to me.