I cut up over 20 cord of fire wood in the last 4 years with my joncutter 5800 that's modded to rev much higher than stock. It still runs like the day I bought it. I keep reading the fuel lines are junk, I may have to replace it in a few more years lol.
Why do "Chinesium" chainsaws need a richer oil mix?
- Thread starter Chucksta
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Yea, probably not.
They may go away completely once the US gets serious about the China problem.
For the life of me I can understand why a guy would buy one of these pieces of junk let alone multiple examples.
GeneralKayoss
ArboristSite Operative
You call them junk meanwhile mine keep right on eating.
The other day I was with a friend stepping down a pine that got hung in some others, using my completely stock Holzfforma 372 clone. After I finished, I said "guess she's still running pretty good". He thought I was using a Husky. I asked him if he remembered when I let him use it to cut up a tree at his house about six years ago. At that time it was new and I told him I had bought it for $209. He remarked that it cut right with the Stihl 362s he uses for his firewood business. It wasn't even broken in at that point.
But he is a diehard Stihl fanatic and will never believe a $200 saw can cut right with his 362s even when he sees it with his own eyes and hands.
In the meantime, he is asking me to fiberglass the plastic tank on his Stihl SR 420 mist blower for the second time because he doesn't want to pay the $175 Stihl charges for the tank and the plastic filter holder.
Keep drinking the Koolaid!
But he is a diehard Stihl fanatic and will never believe a $200 saw can cut right with his 362s even when he sees it with his own eyes and hands.
In the meantime, he is asking me to fiberglass the plastic tank on his Stihl SR 420 mist blower for the second time because he doesn't want to pay the $175 Stihl charges for the tank and the plastic filter holder.
Keep drinking the Koolaid!
GeneralKayoss
ArboristSite Operative
The thing that gets me about the anti-clone guys, they don't realize that most of the OEM parts for Stihl, Husky etc are now made in China at this point. Some potentially on the very same lines as the clone saw parts.
thompsoncustom
ArboristSite Operative
I wouldn't be surprised if they do start putting a dent in stihl/husky sales numbers as good as they are getting these days compared to the price.
For example I bought a brand new holz clone 660 the other day for 205 shipped to my door if that was a brand new Stihl it would be north of 1200 bucks. So for a company running a bunch of these saws they are deposable so there is no down time for repairs or parts you just run it till it dies then chuck it in the trash and pull out another one.
The only question is do they perform as good and last as long and the answer is No but at the same time at around 1/5th or less of the cost they are around 90% of the stihl counter part on performance and there is a bunch of them out there now with 5+ years of service so even if they only were to last 1/3 as long as a real Stihl the company would come out ahead in cost and down time.
My personal thoughts are if they would improve their cylinders and bearing the rest is already close enough.
I would have thought that they don’t have to meet us emissions standards. So they can recommend what is good for the saw.
They offer models that come directly from the manufacturer with upgraded parts
For instance, the husky 372 Holzfforma clone they originally made with all their own parts cost about $200. For closer to $300, You can get one with a Walbro carb, Nikasil cylinder, meteor piston, and Caber rings.
All of those parts are pretty much in the running with OEM.
For instance, the husky 372 Holzfforma clone they originally made with all their own parts cost about $200. For closer to $300, You can get one with a Walbro carb, Nikasil cylinder, meteor piston, and Caber rings.
All of those parts are pretty much in the running with OEM.
A lot of people say they are stealing technology when they make these cloned saws
And they certainly have a point in that - but many of them also do not realize that in US law patents generally expire at 17 years and if you look at the saws, they are cloning. I'm pretty sure they all are exempt from patent protections because of that.
I don't see them cloning any recent saw models.
They generally just clone the more popular, better known, established older saws.
There was some discussion of this on another thread with lots of people seeming to think patents are good forever, but at one time I got a patent in my field and I can tell you they expire in 17 years.
There is the issue of vastly different labor rates. When I went to China on 2 trips many years ago the wages were maybe 10-20% of what a US worker would get. I doubt it has changed but so much. Our labor force and likely many parts of europe have essentially priced themselves out of competition in a world market.
Quality of at least some chinese products has greatly improved, much like Japan did from the 1950s to the 1970s.
For a quarter of the price, maybe one of the better chinese saws is not so bad - captialism at work.
And they certainly have a point in that - but many of them also do not realize that in US law patents generally expire at 17 years and if you look at the saws, they are cloning. I'm pretty sure they all are exempt from patent protections because of that.
I don't see them cloning any recent saw models.
They generally just clone the more popular, better known, established older saws.
There was some discussion of this on another thread with lots of people seeming to think patents are good forever, but at one time I got a patent in my field and I can tell you they expire in 17 years.
There is the issue of vastly different labor rates. When I went to China on 2 trips many years ago the wages were maybe 10-20% of what a US worker would get. I doubt it has changed but so much. Our labor force and likely many parts of europe have essentially priced themselves out of competition in a world market.
Quality of at least some chinese products has greatly improved, much like Japan did from the 1950s to the 1970s.
For a quarter of the price, maybe one of the better chinese saws is not so bad - captialism at work.
Chucksta
What could possibly go wrong??
Reasons?? Sure.. I'll play the Devil's advocate..
1) You can get 4 of them for the price of 1 name brand one.
2) At the price point, well, think "Dollar Store".. They're disposable!
3) A lot of them don't cost much more than a new bar and chain.
4) A lot of people don't like anyone else putting a hand on their saw.
5) Perfect saw for someone who wants to "help", but didn't bring their saw.
6) Perfect "loaner" saw.
7) Perfect saw for the Homeowner who doesn't go through more than a couple of tanks a year.
8) Perfect for the homeowner who uses fuel with Ethanol in it, leaves the fuel in for the winter, and then wonders why it won't run. Pay shop rate of $100.00 an hour ( plus parts ) for service.. Nah.. just get another one, and He'll have spare bar, chain, and parts.
huskydave
Addicted to ArboristSite
I agree, I wouldn't touch one personally, I need my stuff to be very reliable. Things like pistons, rings, cylinders, fuel tanks, fuel caps, carbs, fuel lines, kill switches, recoil housings, chain brake handles are all weak points that can fail at any time without notice. I know a guy that bought a container full of the 660 clones for 80 dollars per powerhead and those were the common problems with them. The quality control is non existent and it is common to find hardware that is not torqued down and fasteners that should have loctite don't. I would recommend a good used saw to most people before them. It just seemed to be a gamble with them, some ran ok and some were just plain junk. I would rather buy once and cry once then have to buy 2 saws.
Chucksta
What could possibly go wrong??
Ya know.. Ya just presented the third option.. Used. A nice third option.
Literally half my saws were bought "used"
I bought saws at auction from the local municipalities, "scheduled for replacement" was the operative word. They were replaced at time, not at hours of operation.
I've also bought from estate auctions. Those were some incredible "barn finds".
I love my "pro level" saws.. And. I appreciate the values of the disposable POS.
Actually, some of those parts are BETTER than what come on an OEM saw. All of my Stihl saws came stock with Chinese carbs. I'm not sure what all parts the OEM's are now sourcing to China, but I've always considered the carb to be the most likely component to have issues as a saw ages. So if they are willing to hang their reputation on a Chinese carb, it doesn't make much sense to keep most of the rest of the components domestic regardless of whether domestic refers to the US, or Europe.
To some people, chainsaws are collectables whether they recognize it or not. For them, its OEM or nothing. For other's, they are simply tools to be used or assets to be managed. No 2 ways about it, the clones are significantly more "Disposable" than the OEM saws, but they are also the absolute best "Disposable" saws you can get. I'd take a new clone of an old pro-saw over a new "home owner" grade OEM saw (ie G260 vs MS291) every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
You bring up a point that I always try to warn people about if buying a clone. There ARE parts that need to be replaced before you ever start it, so if you're afraid or unwilling to wrench on a saw, you should stick to buying new OEM stuff. That said, ALL of the replacement parts can be had for well under $100 (total), and they are all pretty straight forward to replace. There is the argument that you shouldn't need to replace anything on a brand new saw, and I get that. I also understand that at this price point, I expect to have to wrench on something. My replacement parts on my G660 include the mounting screws for the handle and felling spikes, a clutch, and the bar oil pump. I got the screws from my Stihl dealer, and everything else from Hyway plus a DP muffler just for fun. The one thing I haven't replaced, but really should is the master switch. It works, but it's frustrating when starting it cold. I've heard of people having problems with the starter pawl, but mine has been fine (I already keept a couple spares in my saw box anyway).
All of my Stihl saws were purchased used. I'm of the opinion that I'd prefer a new clone over an older used saw because the new clone has new seals and rubber. My experience has been that things like seals and intake boots on older saws are some of the bigger PITA things to diagnose and replace. That said, I can't fault someone for preferring a used saw. No doubt, they have better "bones" than the clones do.
Rooshooter
ArboristSite Operative
Dead right, when you have a look at what the crankcase is made of it is aluminum not magnesium, I have seen a couple that have been dropped and crankcase has cracked.
1. Typical American point of view. IE it's better to buy piles a junk than one quality piece.
2. Another typical American viewpoint of many Americans.
3. Yea, they are cheap junk.
4. Yes and for good reason.
5. Not my concern, they can haul wood/clean up all day.
6. I wouldn't buy a saw based on its usefulness in regards to letting a ham fist run it.
7. No they aren't. Less reliable, if anything they are more of an enthusiasts item. A cheap enthusiast, but an enthusiast none the less.
8. See 1 and 2.
Have you actually ever run one?
GeneralKayoss
ArboristSite Operative
This right here. Even if you have to replace the entire guts of one, you're down what, $100 or less in parts? And the ones out there running for 3-5+ years were of the first generation. They've worked out a lot of kinks since then. I do like buying American but at the end of they day, my bank account matters more than some company's bank account be it in America or China.
thompsoncustom
ArboristSite Operative
Ya I replaced a crank case/cylinder for someone on a 660 clone and it was right around a 100 bucks for pretty much a brand new saw.
They are better than most people that haven't ran them give them credit for, I ran one for a year with a tuned exhaust pipe pushing 12hp on stock components and that saw is still running fine today probably 4 years old just doesn't wear the pipe anymore.
GeneralKayoss
ArboristSite Operative
This. They made a super smart business decision. Originally they sold replacement parts. At some point they realized the Stihl/Husky patents expired and they were already making all the parts so they might as well build their own saws. Voila. I'll probably never buy another expensive name brand saw again.
Yeah, the "Pro" versions. They only have two as of now, the 660 Pro and the 372XP Pro. I anticipate they'll release a couple more Pro models eventually of their other top selling saws. I have the 660 Pro and it's a damn beast and I've only had one minor issue with it through 20 gallons of fuel, threads for one of the top cover screws stripped out somehow. Helicoiled it and it was good to go.
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