thompsoncustom
ArboristSite Operative
Whats the height from your raker to the top plate on the tooth? Doesn't look like a whole lot.
File Gauge
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Diet Ginger Beer
ArboristSite Member
New chain after one use. .325
Measures pretty close to 0.85mm
This was after the regular file gauge allowed for a tiny amount to be filed off. The hardwood setting on the progressive showed the same.
Ruler was clamped to bar x2 and top of two teeth lined up so they were level.
thompsoncustom
ArboristSite Operative
well that sounds right where it should be and shouldn't cause you any issues.
Looking at you tooth in the picture above I don't like the angle. It should look something like a C shape where yours seems very flat on the front. Maybe this is where your problem is at?
I would aim for a profile more like this and see how it cuts. I'm guessing the problem is the file guide itself so you will probably have to free hand sharpen it to get the right angle for now.
Looking at you tooth in the picture above I don't like the angle. It should look something like a C shape where yours seems very flat on the front. Maybe this is where your problem is at?
I would aim for a profile more like this and see how it cuts. I'm guessing the problem is the file guide itself so you will probably have to free hand sharpen it to get the right angle for now.
Diet Ginger Beer
ArboristSite Member
Do you think this might be because that's the way they are when new? I might rummage around to find an old chain to see how they look.
I still think that the file guide might be a bit out of shape.
When you sharpen, do you place the file guide on the tooth and the depth gauge when you sharpen the tooth ?
Diet Ginger Beer
ArboristSite Member
This is an old spare chain.
I think it's me. There is inconsistency there......some teeth are vertical some rounded.
I think it's me. There is inconsistency there......some teeth are vertical some rounded.
thompsoncustom
ArboristSite Operative
No, The file is made for the tooth being new and some people will change to a smaller file when they get past half of the tooth and it gets shorter but the file itself should work perfect on a brand new chain.
its ok, I started out knowing nothing, along with everyone else here, and just had a learning curve ahead of me, its much easier if you have someone who knows their stuff to help you along, so you will be fine here.
its a skill that seems out of reach to begin with, but after a while, and some learning and un learning bad habbits, you will be teaching others how to do it correctly too.
So, when you pass the file over the tooth, is the guide resting on the cutter and the depth gauge ?
its a guide, so you just need enough pressure to keep it aligned, dont force it, let it guide you, but you have to have control of a straight pass of the file in the correct position, in time, you will have nice sharp consistent chains.
edited to add
an 18 on a 250 is pushing it, I usually run an 18" 3/8 on my 036, and a 16" .325 on my 261.
On our hard dead euc, shorter bars than usual on the power head is a good general rule.
Diet Ginger Beer
ArboristSite Member
Just been out to the shed and I would say that I file with the guide not resting on the depth gauge ie slightly tilted on the right side, towards me.....is this how it should be?
The Husky file guide wont fit a .325 Stihl I believe, and the Stihl guide uses the file holder I have which we are trying to get away from.
The stihl file guide is pretty good if set up correctly.
So pass the file thru making sure the guide is resting on both the tooth and the depth gauge, (correctly set to depth), and post up some pics.
your already on the right track with 30deg and 90 to the chain as you mentioned earlier, but if the guide is not on both the tooth and depth gauge, the file is not in its correct position to sharpen correctly.
lets sort this, its either your technique, or the guide not stamped correctly (as ive seen in the past on a few occasions), or both.
Step thru this methodically, and you will sort the problem.
The archer guide is ok on some chains, but ive not used it on stihl chain, I find they copy the carlton style of chain, and work on that, but not stihl. Same with the husky roller guide, awesome idea, but it dosent work on the stihl chain like it does on the other chains, which have different geometry in the cutter tooth.
So pass the file thru making sure the guide is resting on both the tooth and the depth gauge, (correctly set to depth), and post up some pics.
your already on the right track with 30deg and 90 to the chain as you mentioned earlier, but if the guide is not on both the tooth and depth gauge, the file is not in its correct position to sharpen correctly.
lets sort this, its either your technique, or the guide not stamped correctly (as ive seen in the past on a few occasions), or both.
Step thru this methodically, and you will sort the problem.
The archer guide is ok on some chains, but ive not used it on stihl chain, I find they copy the carlton style of chain, and work on that, but not stihl. Same with the husky roller guide, awesome idea, but it dosent work on the stihl chain like it does on the other chains, which have different geometry in the cutter tooth.
Diet Ginger Beer
ArboristSite Member
Looked at the various options for a file guide and none of them stack up.
So I think it's time to make the leap and lose the guide completely as it's probably causing more problems than it solves.
Post up pics of the tooth after you have passed the file thru correctly, with it resting on both the cutter tooth, and the depth gauge, and lets go from there.
the stihl guides if stamped correctly, are worth while.
free hand takes a while to master, and altho its useful, after cutting for a while, I dont have the stamina or control to sharpen well without the guide.
relax, you will get this sorted in due time.
The few I have had that were not stamped correctly had issues fitting into the chain when the chain was new, like you describe.
It will fit. I have one and I've used it on my .325 Stihl RSC chains. With that said, I prefer the type of file guide you are using.
I agree that in some (even most cases) your file isn't all the way down on the tooth. It looks like sometimes you're raising the handle, and some times you're dropping the handle. Either way, a lot of those teeth don't have enough hook in them, at least not at the top where its most important. The point of the hook should form an angle around 45 degrees.
It looks like you're file is deep enough to form the right hook, but you're somehow removing the hook as you go. Take a new file and lay it down in the gullet of the tooth without the guide attached. It should be making contact from the bottom of the gullet, all the way up to the top plate, but it won't. There will be a gap that goes from the top of the top plate down to about the 9 o'clock position on the file. Once you see that, think about how you're moving the file across the cutter. With that in mind, take your file and guide, and move it STRAIGHT across the tooth. Be purposeful, and go slower than normal. You've learned a bad habit somewhere, and the only way to unlearn it is to do it the right way, on purpose, carefully, and do it a LOT. As you make each stroke, watch where the top plate makes (or should make) contact with the file. Once the hook is correctly formed, you should be able to watch the top plate, and it should always ride at about the same point on the file. If the file rides up on the tooth, you'll see it and you'll know that you messed up.
Also, clamp the bar (and powerhead) in a bench vise when you're sharpening. You can do it in the woods without a bench vice, but while you're learning its better to remove all the other variables.
Diet Ginger Beer
ArboristSite Member
Decided to get one of these which has metal rollers, gets good reviews and wont allow any previous bad habits. Though it can be ordered, can't find a dealer who has ever seen one let alone stocks them.
They did give me the hard sell on a 2 in 1 file when I tried to order this one but a few reviews have said that they can take the gauges too low. Plus you still have to go back and round them all off.
I did notice that the file itself has a bow in the middle from being clamped down in the guide ridiculously tightly at both ends.
That might cause the same effect as raising and lowering the handle which I dont think I do.
I Have tried those guides you pictured, they are clumsy and annoying, and dont really help. A poor copy of the husky roller guide idea.
2 in 1 is not always as good as they say, yes they can take too much from the depth gauges too low for what your cutting, I prefer being able to fine tune my sharpening to the wood Im cutting, your current style guide and progressive depth gauge guide will allow for this, so stick with that.
Just get another guide like you have, I would think that you will notice a difference, in how it fits into a new chain, and the profile on the cutter it leaves.
Like ive said several times, post up a pic of the tooth after you have passed the file thru a few times with the guide resting on BOTH the tooth and depth gauge, and post them up.
No, thats not how it should be.
rest the guide on both the tooth, and the depth gauge (once its set to the correct height).
See pics here, they are not that good, but you get the idea.
Here I am sharpening a chain that was incorrectly sharpened with a bench grinder and wheel, so you see the difference in tooth shape compared to the file.
On this chain, I had to go around and set the depth gauges correctly, then take out the gullet area left from the grinding wheel, then finally sharpen the tooth, and go over and re check the depth gauges, so yes on some chains, they need work.
On one pic, it shows a gap between the depth gauge and file guide, this was just showing how the tooth shape was wrong when the file was pressed towards it.
gap over the depth gauge is wrong, when filed, I rested the guage on the depth gauge, and let the file cut out a new tooth profile.
see here
after a few passes, the tooth shape starts to change
see earlier posted pic of the finished tooth.
^^^^^THIS^^^^^^
You already have what is possibly the best file guide made. Controlling the angle isn't supper critical for bucking firewood. It's nice to have it consistent on every tooth, but a little variation isn't a deal breaker in regards to the chains performance. The most important thing is to keep the file down in the cutter like the pictures above show. The new guide you purchased probably won't help with that, and neither would a 2 in 1 guide. Also, FWIW, through out the life of the chain, I normally only need to adjust my rakers 3 or 4 times. If the chain is sharp, and my saw is not pulling into the wood, I hit the rakers with a few strokes. Otherwise, I leave them alone.
As Trains said, one of the many advantages of hand filing is that you can tune your chain to suite your needs. This becomes more helpful with a full chisel (RSC) chain because when the very point of the tooth gets dull, the chain slows down a lot. Thus, if you sharpen after every tank, you can put slightly more of an angle on the tooth giving you a slightly narrower point that penetrates into the wood easier. This allows the saw to cut faster, but the chain also dulls faster. If you're in hard, dirty wood, or you're running a shorter than average bar and you don't want to sharpen as often, you can decrease the angle slightly to make it last a little longer.
You already have what is possibly the best file guide made. Controlling the angle isn't supper critical for bucking firewood. It's nice to have it consistent on every tooth, but a little variation isn't a deal breaker in regards to the chains performance. The most important thing is to keep the file down in the cutter like the pictures above show. The new guide you purchased probably won't help with that, and neither would a 2 in 1 guide. Also, FWIW, through out the life of the chain, I normally only need to adjust my rakers 3 or 4 times. If the chain is sharp, and my saw is not pulling into the wood, I hit the rakers with a few strokes. Otherwise, I leave them alone.
As Trains said, one of the many advantages of hand filing is that you can tune your chain to suite your needs. This becomes more helpful with a full chisel (RSC) chain because when the very point of the tooth gets dull, the chain slows down a lot. Thus, if you sharpen after every tank, you can put slightly more of an angle on the tooth giving you a slightly narrower point that penetrates into the wood easier. This allows the saw to cut faster, but the chain also dulls faster. If you're in hard, dirty wood, or you're running a shorter than average bar and you don't want to sharpen as often, you can decrease the angle slightly to make it last a little longer.
I used to always think my saw had to be spewing out chips or shavings to be "sharp" and like OP said, the dust is annoying in any way possible
also found out some wood just cuts like that, I never make chains specialized for what wood I'm cutting, in any one day I can cut 5 or 10 species with the same saw, not worth it to swap chains
I like short rakers, sharper chains are better IMO but I never try to get mine surgical sharp, just doesn't stay sharp nearly as long, I prefer a little less hook to the tooth, (tilt grinder head up or go one file size larger) and a 25* grind, then I test cut in a few different species of wood outside my shop, hand file the rakers to what I feel is as low as I can go safely
also found out some wood just cuts like that, I never make chains specialized for what wood I'm cutting, in any one day I can cut 5 or 10 species with the same saw, not worth it to swap chains
I like short rakers, sharper chains are better IMO but I never try to get mine surgical sharp, just doesn't stay sharp nearly as long, I prefer a little less hook to the tooth, (tilt grinder head up or go one file size larger) and a 25* grind, then I test cut in a few different species of wood outside my shop, hand file the rakers to what I feel is as low as I can go safely
To clarify a little, I don't tune a chain to the wood I'm cutting. I tune it for the saw that its on and how I normally use that saw. My 036 saws are my primary bucking saws. I set those chains up to be pretty aggressive. They grab and pull hard. My 026 is my limbing saw. I sharpen it to the mfg specs so that it cuts smooth. My 024 is for limbing and for loaning to others so it gets a safety chain. For me, anything bigger than 60ccs is for cutting bigger wood as fast as possible so, again, I set those chains up to be more aggressive. If I'm going to go do disaster relief after a storm, I'll throw a 20" bar on the 026 and run a safety chain on it because I'll be doing a lot of limbing and a lot of reaching.
Trains has shared some excellent and solid advise I highly recommend following it!
Here is some 3/8 Stihl chain using the Stihl file guide. The only difference is that I'll remove the gullet every few filings to give the file clearance.
I don’t often round the depth gauges like Trains demonstrates, but it's worth trying it.
Occasionally I may, but not when I'm out cutting. When I’m tired, hot, dehydrated, and filing every 3/4 of a tank, I don’t have the dexterity and if I try rounding the depth gauges, I inevitably brush the cutting tooth every so often and have to refile it, so I don't bother.
The wood I cut is so dirty that in less than a tank, I have to refile. I don’t have the patience to make the chain perfect each time. I spend three minutes doing a quick file to get it cutting well, refill both tanks and clean the AF.
If I was in the USA cutting rolled up foam mattresses and I don’t have to sharpen more than once a day i’d take more care.
However, at the end of the day, when I’m back at home, I take a bit more time on it.
If you want the best chain, it’s the small details that matter, and the consensus is to round the depth gauges like Trains has shown.
Here is a short video filing and cutting aussi woods. I filmed this for my dad a while ago, so just ignore what I’m saying, it was directed to him.
Here is some 3/8 Stihl chain using the Stihl file guide. The only difference is that I'll remove the gullet every few filings to give the file clearance.
I don’t often round the depth gauges like Trains demonstrates, but it's worth trying it.
Occasionally I may, but not when I'm out cutting. When I’m tired, hot, dehydrated, and filing every 3/4 of a tank, I don’t have the dexterity and if I try rounding the depth gauges, I inevitably brush the cutting tooth every so often and have to refile it, so I don't bother.
The wood I cut is so dirty that in less than a tank, I have to refile. I don’t have the patience to make the chain perfect each time. I spend three minutes doing a quick file to get it cutting well, refill both tanks and clean the AF.
If I was in the USA cutting rolled up foam mattresses and I don’t have to sharpen more than once a day i’d take more care.
However, at the end of the day, when I’m back at home, I take a bit more time on it.
If you want the best chain, it’s the small details that matter, and the consensus is to round the depth gauges like Trains has shown.
Here is a short video filing and cutting aussi woods. I filmed this for my dad a while ago, so just ignore what I’m saying, it was directed to him.
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