Discussion in 'Forestry and Logging Forum' started by jdc123, Oct 24, 2011.
P.S. sorry for the long response time... I was busy...
But the lights work on the Essavator!
You completely misunderstood my statement, and my meaning.
I asked about gunning stick use on an assymetric cut. You told me "Asymmetrical face cut. Useful for many things and largely predictable", while ignoring my original question.
When you say that the asymmetrical cut is largely predictable, and you fail to comment on my question, I naturally infer that you are stating that the gunning sticks are not needed on a predictable cut. My comment was intended to illustrate that the old timers in the posted pic DID know what they were doing, that they WERE using the sticks to predict the lay of a cut, and that you might consider sharing some of your experience and just answer the damned question. It's called a rhetorical question, and I don't generally stop to explain them.
Instead, you somehow took my comment as disparaging the guys that invented the industry, and got all huffy about it. I did not intend to piss you off, nor do I think my rhetorical question can seriously be taken as an insult by anyone who is not already primed to pick a fight.
Honestly, in the future I will try to avoid using language constructs like rhetorical questions. I know that you don't think so, but I am never trying to pick a fight. That being said, I seem to be quite willing to take on a fight when I think someone is poking me in the nose. If you read my comments as friendly, you will usually be right. When I intend to piss someone off, it is pretty damned obvious. Just ask Gologit.
I humbly apologize for my sarcastic answer. Really and truly, I thought that you were gigging at me. In light of your zealous pursuit of maximizing timber, I can finally understand why you have not used this kind of cut (favorably) before now. Kindly remember that not long before, I had been told by a seasoned veteran of this forum that asymetric cuts were well understood and useful. I have fallen into the error that so many folks do: I erroneously read into your statements what was not there, as you have so politely explained above.
I would delete the offensive components of my response to you, but that will make some of the subsequent acrimony seem illogical. We would all have to have a deletion party, and I don't think that would be popular. Please, just ignore the part about needing to cut down a few more trees, and the rest of my answer stands. No other parts were even slightly sarcastic.
I will take the time to put up some decent pictures/ drawings of my points, and perhaps then you guys will see what I am talking about. Also; I will attempt to make clear why I think the use of gunning sticks will be a departure from other sighting methods while utilizing the "assymetric cut".
A true apology consists of three components: A statement of regret or remorse, an admission of error, and an attempt to make good what has been wronged. I hope with this answer I have done right by you.
Your are quite the pip.
There is a lot of difference in cutting crooked and using an asymmetrical cut, I'm sure you know that already.
As for the rest, you come across as a pinhead, which leads to some responses that are not to your liking.
@pdqdl - No offense meant, I don't want to get into this argument, but I do think you missed the answer to your question - quoted below.
Gunning sticks, from what I have read, were used in very large and tall timber where sighting off your saw, axe or other means was not accurate enough simply due to the size of the timber. I'm sure they could be used to sight up a non-level cut, but cannot see how they would offer any measurable advantage over sighting off your saw. As with any form of swinging, sighting is an estimate at best, dependent on wood strength, face cut, and many other factors that even gunning sights cannot predict.
as for gunning sticks, as mentioned above, anything under 4' could probably just use a large framers square or some such, easier to drag around, but still give the jist of where it is going.
No offense taken, none whatsoever. Ok. I'll explain why i don't think the other tools are anywhere close to serving the same purpose.
The asymmetric cut, as I occasionally use it, is not being used to save any part of the tree, nor is it to more easily get the tree to hit the object zone; it is to land the tree while swinging the canopy around branches from adjacent trees or perhaps other objects aloft. While sighting down a t-square or the gunning sights on your saw are ok most of the time, they don't allow you to get behind the sighting tool and eyeball the entire path you intend for the tree to follow.
Now I'm not saying it is impossible to lay down on my back and sight down one leg of my plywood t-square in the same arc as some gunning sticks, but it might not be very practical due to underbrush, rocks, other stems of the same tree, etc. Laying a pair of long sticks into the corners of the cut, particularly if I am attempting to sight a wonky angled cut, seems like it will be a lot more practical to look overhead with. The measurable advantage is ease of use, and consequentially being more accurate by eliminating errors.
That answer really doesn't answer the question I was asking. My question wasn't about why to use the sticks in general, it was how well they might be used to predict the falling path aloft of the the tree using an asymmetric cut. [Note: Randy Mac called it asymmetric, so that is what I have been sticking to.]
At this point, I have worked everything out in my mind, and I am no longer seeking any answers on this topic. My best guess is that no one here has ever used them for that purpose since that type of cut ain't real popular around here, and they figure that if'n they never needed to, I shouldn't either.
For those of you that are honestly waiting for my graphic visualization of this beaten-to-death topic, here goes:
Please zoom in real close on my drawn face cuts. I worked real hard to get them looking close to accurate.
Northmanlogging: Did this answer your question?
Obviously, this approach is only for special occasions. Others have already mentioned that the strength of the hinge and holding wood will vary considerably among tree species. I would like to add that achieving a whole lot of swing into a rather tall heavy tree is likely to cause premature hinge failure and a missed shot. Perhaps with bad consequences. Naturally, you should use all the tricks you know to make the hinge last as long as possible.
My most common use for this is to cut down big, broad deciduous trees that have a canopy that will sweep branches out of other trees. If I hit them, I can seriously injure the non-target tree or just at a minimum, be required to climb another tree to fix what should have been missed. I might just be seeking to pick an easier landing zone to do the cleanup, or i might be gambling that I can miss all the non-targets. I don't really like to gamble too much, so acquiring a better sighting method is appealing.
This technique can also be used when you are working somewhat against the lean. Quite frankly, it is so easy for me to set a rope and pull it where I want, I don't generally worry about the lean of a tree too much. Obviously, that isn't a good plan if you are taking out a 15' DBH redwood, but I don't think that happens too often anymore.
BTW: I haven't hit a fence, house, or other customer structure for over ten years. Quite frankly, except for the time I swatted my own chipper, I just can't recall how long ago it has been. I didn't get that kind of luck except by being careful to KNOW how my cuts will work out, or taking the time to make sure that it works out the way I have planned.
Thank you, I think. I certainly might qualify under both definitions provided. An excellent adjective for a person, I think. Sadly, I fear that you didn't quite mean it that way.
noun: pip; plural noun: pips
a small hard seed in a fruit.
synonyms: seed, stone, pit
an excellent or very attractive person or thing.
As to a pinhead? 'Tis hard to change who we are, even harder to change who other people are. My quest in life is to change both for the better. You can't see it, but I do.
For those who are interested:
NO! Gunning sticks of equal length do NOT predict where an asymmetric face cut will fall. Just like they won't predict where a leaning tree will fall if cut an an angle off from the lean. All other sighting methods that use a perpendicular measure will fail for the same reason.
Now a set with adjustable length legs? That will work nicely.
Set ends of pole in corners of face cut.
Adjust legs until the gunning tool matches the vertical angle of the tree.
Get behind sighting tool, eyeball the final path.
Adjustable length gunning sights will work equally well with horizontal face cuts for crooked trees using the above method. I think my adjustable length pruning poles will work just fine for that, all I need is a hinge...
No! Not the Silky! They cost too much.
just for the sake of argument
A soft dutch will do the same thing but be easier to aim.
Thanks. I guess that is something else I need to experiment with. I have always considered that any form of Dutchman leads to an early tearing of the hinge (with a little induced rotation of the trunk), and reduced control closer to the ground. I was recently trying to figure out how you guys figure out how much swing might occur with that technique, and it looked like it was a whole lot more art & experience than science.
I will try to play with that method someday when I can't hit anything with my inexperience. In this part of the short-fat-deciduous tree world, nobody uses any form of Dutchman except those fellas with dull saws that cannot match up their cuts. I may have to make sure that no one is watching; I will undoubtedly be met with contempt by my local peers for doing silly **** with a chainsaw.
Oh yes! The local sawyers are just as contentious and unwilling to learn new techniques as the logging industry. Probably quite a bit worse, since there isn't really too much of a professional industry here.
The early failing of the hold wood is part and parcel of any form of dutch, when its powers are used for good... its a good thing, a hackery dutch (read unintentional) is how **** goes wrong quickly.
For the soft dutch the first and deepest is basically a gun cut to initiate the swing, the stem with sit down in that direction before starting to swing back around. The other step cuts are intended to keep the momentum going before finally reaching the face cut and then hopefully being stopped.
Add a sizwheel and you can get some real motion out of em, even so much as to get it to skid sideways once it contacts the ground though that is rare its pretty freckin cool when it does (limb and stuff are pretty good brakes)
I've noticed, though still seem to not account for, that a side leaner that is faced directly towards where you want it to fall will fall about the same distance off as to the amount of lean, its been beat into my head to always gun where you want them to land... but the natural lean has a negative effect on this... I get tired and stupid...
this is a side shift... and its one of my Favorite vids... when you say crooked face this is what I have in mind
works better on a hill, and is really really dangerous... but a handy bit of knowledge when needed, just remember to have lots of running room and stay on the upside of the cuts, and never try to send one up hill. Also don't try this with a standard face cut, it will likely back slip and side slip... not good...
Thing about using any kind of offset hinge to direct a tree is that it is exactly the early breaking of the weak side that allows the swing to happen. Once you get it moving, the momentum that carries it around breaks the weak hinge and holds tight to the remaining hinge. You are depending on that to prevent it from just flopping where it wants to. As a guideline, if it sits down on your bar as you cut the offside hinge thinner, the top is moving and this is both expected and necessary. Once it rolls into the face, the bar should free up so that you can pull your saw out and skedaddle. You want to escape in the direction of the thick side of the hinge mostly. If you fail to get enough momentum to roll it, you are just gonna have to wedge or jack it into motion. Taller trees and trees with wider crowns are more likely candidates for this kind of treatment because they build the momentum better and faster.
The sticks ensure you lined everything up, not to predict the action.
Well sure. But if you discover that it ain't going the right way, you make corrections.
I would like to add that the wonderful picture you posted of the gunning sticks in action was clearly being used to mark the location of where & how to make the cuts. I would call that somewhat predictive.
I think you are making petty arguments here. I don't understand your motivation with that statement except to express your personal disdain for me. Is ok. I don't care about that.
Separate names with a comma.