Filtering the water out of gas

[mu2bdriver]

Oh, ok. I thought I was missing something. I need to get some more gas for the ope this weekend and I'll run it through a few extra times, cleaning the filter each time and see if it still pulls out any contaminants past the first filtering. One reason I never thought about it was because the filter is so fine, water won't flow through it so after the first time, you're really looking for particulates or other items hazardous to your equipment's health that somehow managed to et by the first time.

 

[_RJ_]

Negative. Mostly because I don't feel like cleaning/wiping and drying the filter. What am I missing?



Is that a regulatory, franchise, or other requirement? Is that 1 micron 100% of the time? I only ask that because I read about these hyped up in-line filters which filter down to 3 microns (in big print) and then in tiny print next to it anywhere from 40-70% of the time depending on the manufacturer.

I'll have to get back with you on that one. My parents run it and I just so happened to be over there when they got their test results and pump certification stickers. It is a regulatory thing and although they only have to come once a year. You never know when they're coming to dip your tanks and test your pumps. I do know that the tanks are above ground and surrounded by concrete, like a bunker. They actually stay at a fairly consistent temp. It's just a Ma and Pop place so my dad doesn't have to deal with a 'corporate' entity (except my mom) when it comes to operations and quality control.

 

[BuckMKII]

Personally I would go to the store clerk and demand the equivalent amount of gas! You paid for it so it should be yours! And I would definately NOT see it as my problem getting rid of the stuff. Where I am from each gas station has special absorbitive "sand" incase a mishap happens. That is where I would dump it into.

7

I am not going to get bent out of shape about a little bit of water and trash in the fuel as long as I'm able to filter it out. This is the only place in town to get E0 fuel and it's a little mom and pop store ran by good folks.

 

[BuckMKII]

Whitespider I have some gas in jerry cans for emergencies stored out in my barn for up to a year at a time. If I don't use them during this time, I will dump them in my truck. There will usually be a drop or two of water that has formed over that time.

 

[BuckMKII]

if you guys saw how long some of the guys in the bush let their saws sit with the cap off looking for the gas to fill it in the pissing down rain you wouldn't worry about that drip of water LOL here on the wetcoast. some days are like working in your shower with the tap on full blast cold LOL soaked in seconds. i'm sure the saws get a few litres through that tank throughout their lifetime. the filters they use must stop water from going up to the carb for the most part.

Thanks for the insight. I know I'm probably going overboard with the filtration but it only takes a minute for me and I'm only using my saws to cut firewood.

 

[BuckMKII]

Oh, ok. I thought I was missing something. I need to get some more gas for the ope this weekend and I'll run it through a few extra times, cleaning the filter each time and see if it still pulls out any contaminants past the first filtering. One reason I never thought about it was because the filter is so fine, water won't flow through it so after the first time, you're really looking for particulates or other items hazardous to your equipment's health that somehow managed to et by the first time.

I'd be interested to know the results of your multiple filterings.

 

[Mad Professor]

My 1939 9N ford separates water just fine. You can't get OEM but try Yesterdays Tractors, they have such filters.

A seporatry funnel is the proper tool to use. But expensive and maybe 20-L at a time. Get a ford type filter

Oh yes I'm chemist and farmer, I have made dry ethanol devoid of any water.

 

[Whitespider]

Oh, ok. I thought I was missing something. ...I'll run it through a few extra times...

I'll be very interested in the results also.
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[imagineero]

Last time I checked, water cost more than gas per liter.

If it's in a car, add a little ethyl alchol to your tank. The alchol absorbs the water, and burns just fine. Don't hurt any to put a liter of alchol into a full tank of fuel once a year just to keep things good.

 

[Fly By Night]

I'm guessing the water in the fuel isn't bottled therefore cheaper then fuel per unit. Also the ethanol we have here in the states should absorb the little bit of water that does get in

 

[Whitespider]

Also the ethanol we have here in the states should absorb the little bit of water that does get in

A gallon of E10 can absorb (or can dissolve) 3.8 teaspoons of water at 60° before it phase separates, which takes the ethanol out of the gasoline with it. The problem with ethanol blended gasoline is it's affinity to pull water vapor from the air and temperature changes... with an increase or decrease of just 10° the amount of water that can be held in solution changes by 15%-20%. Say your splitter is sitting in 85° September temperatures for a couple of weeks and the gas in the float bowl absorbs atmospheric moisture to near the saturation point, then the temperatures suddenly drop to the 35° over a couple days... well, you now have a small amount of ethanol/water solution laying there corroding the crap out'a stuff because the ethanol provides the oxygen for the oxidation process (corrosion). It gets much worse if ya' (unsuccessfully) try and start it and pull that crap up into the carb, get frustrated and walk away for a week or two... likely a new carb will be the result.

Think what happens when you pump water saturated E10 gas from a 50° underground storage tank on a -15° day... that stuff will phase separate before you get home if it's sitting in the back of your truck. What if you take it from your warm shop to the woods for a little cuttin' on a cold day??

A non-ethanol gasoline can only hold (absorb or dissolve) something well less than ½ teaspoon (actual amount depends on additives). Also, it doesn't pull water vapor from the air and temperature changes insignificantly effect it's saturation point. Meaning, with non-ethanol gas, the water is gonna be laying in the bottom of the storage tank where you're much less likely to pump it into your container... and even if you do pump a little it will lay in the bottom of your container. And no matter what, that water will just be water, (mostly) insulated from oxygen by gasoline.

Because of the water vapor absorption, phase separation, and corrosion problems, ethanol makes a horrible water remover for gasoline... absolutely horrible.
That's why isopropyl alcohol and methanol are used for such purpose... they don't absorb water vapor as readily and they don't separate from the gas at the saturation point.
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[Fly By Night]

Interesting, thanks for the info white spider

 

[7sleeper]

What I believe should not be excluded is the fact that, in ambient temperatures in the northern hemisphere, one cubic yard of air holds 2-3 drops of water. So the fear that in a closed system, that a carb bowl would be because if it wasn't the engine would run right because it would be sucking in air instead of gas, so much air would have to pass through that you would get enough water to over saturate the system seems highly unlickely! Even if you wait years!

7

 

[Whitespider]

So the fear that in a closed system, that a carb bowl would be because if it wasn't the engine would run right because it would be sucking in air instead of gas, so much air would have to pass through that you would get enough water to over saturate the system seems highly unlickely! Even if you wait years!

You totally miss the point.
Absorbing moisture from the air just adds to the problem, it ain't the problem. Any float bowl (or any gas container less than plumb full) will get water in it just from condensation as temperatures change. It ain't about how the water gets there... it's about the quantity it can hold, what happens when the saturation point is reached, about how that saturation point changes with temperature, and what happens when it phase separates. The fuel don't have to be "over saturated" when temperatures drop 50° or more in a couple days (which is common round here during spring and fall)... temperature significantly changes the saturation point of ethanol blended fuel.

You'll find a little water in the bottom of near any vehicle gas tank... that's a fact (I've changes dozens of 'em... in all sorts of vehicles).
It ain't about the water... it's about the ethanol mixed with that water and the damage it does.
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[mu2bdriver]

I bought a gallon of 93 octane earlier and pumped it through the funnel and into a new 1 gal container (container A). No contaminants noted in funnel. That's not fun, so...

I brought it home and measured 8 ounces of water and dumped that right into container A (already with the 1 gal of fuel in it). I poured that through the funnel and into another unused 1 gal container (container B) and I could see the water I purposely put in at the bottom of the filter. I poured that into a metal can for later measurements.

I poured the fuel in container B back through the funnel (after cleaning it) and back into container A (I didn't clean it between and assumed it to be 'clean enough'). No contaminants noted. I went back through A to B one more time and didn't notice any contaminants in the funnel either. I don't know if I were to allow the fuel to settle if any water would be noted. All of this was pretty quickly done.

I went back to the metal can with the water (and some residual fuel) in it and wanted to measure how much water I recovered after purposely put it in container A. I measured out a little over 9.5 ounces. It was tough for me to tell if I got the total 8 ounces of water (and 1.5oz of residual fuel) filtered out, but I'm pretty satisfied that I did. In hindsight, because the water is heavier than the fuel, I could have burned off the fuel and then taken another measurement.

The filter element in the Mr. Funnel sits a little higher than the bottom of the funnel base so you're always going to have some residual fluid (water, fuel, other) in the bottom of the funnel even through multiple filterings. This is kind of a pain in the ass, but is what it is. After multiple filterings, whatever water you capture after the first run is all you're going to get after subsequent filterings. Perhaps if you have other solid contaminants that escaped initial filtering they would be captured after subsequent filterings. I'm not sure about that because I didn't have any sand or other stuff around to play with. It would have been interesting to see what I would have filtered out if I let each sample set for an hour or so. That would allow any water to settle to the bottom of the container. There is a pretty good dividing line between water and unleaded gas, water and diesel fuel or hydraulic fluid seems to mix easier.

If there are any other variants of this experiment you would like me to try, please let me know and I'll try to fiddle with it. Suffice to say, from what I've filtered out of my fuel/gas/etc., I still think it's a very worthwhile tool to have on hand. I've never complained to service station staff over junk I've found in the funnel but I have a mental note of what stations I frequent and ones that I stay away from based on my personal findings over the last several years.

 

[mu2bdriver]

You bet! It was a lazy Saturday for me...

 

[BuckMKII]

Thanks for taking the time and effort to conduct that experiment for us

 

[Whitespider]

It would have been interesting to see what I would have filtered out if I let each sample set for an hour or so.

Or a day or so, or a week, or... but no need to take it that far unless you have another couple lazy days of total boredom.
And... I owe you a couple beers
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[Whitespider]

So the fear that in a closed system, that a carb bowl would be because if it wasn't the engine would run right because it would be sucking in air instead of gas...

Ummmmm... closed system?? If it's a closed system, how is it possible for gas to run all over the ground when the float sticks with the needle open??
Small engine carburetor float bowls are vented... if they weren't, they wouldn't gravity feed.
The carb sucks the fuel from the float bowl, not from the fuel tank (which is also vented or it couldn't gravity feed).
Float bowl vents are configured differently depending on vintage, model, and whatnot... many older type vent directly to atmosphere, many newer use some sort of internal vent that may even lead to the crankcase (which, depending on conditions, may be quite rich in moisture). Some use a check valve or ball to reduce inverse venting... which will reduce incoming moisture (if it's working... questionable if it's sat with E10 fuel in it).

Believe me, the air in a float bowl, and more so in the fuel tank, is exchanged more often than you think... especially on older stuff.
The fuel in the float bowl is quite often the first to "sour". In years past it was common for a float bowl to have a manual drain on it... if the equipment had sat for any length of time you automatically opened the drain to let the old fuel (and any water if present) run out and fresh fuel run in before even attempting to start it. You don't see those drains anymore (not as often anyway)... the EPA don't like them. I needed a new float bowl for a little snow thrower with a Tecumseh 2-stroke last fall... the old one had a spring loaded drain, the replacement did not. The owner (neighbor) used E10 in it the year before, the phase separated E10 ate a hole right through the bowl (which was a good thing... all the E10 from the plastic tank ran out on the ground where no further carb damage could be done).

LOL - My neighbor is a big ethanol supporter, but he's beginning to see the light. Last spring he got to replace his Poulan leaf blower (I couldn't save the carb), last fall was the snow thrower, and this spring his Briggs generator started, ran rough for a few seconds, died and won't restart (ain't looked at it yet... but, I've got a good guess ).
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