Tell me if I'm wrong about these trees' conditions

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ForTheArborist

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When I saw these trees while I was doing a lot of other work around the property, I thought this would be an opportunity to practice my records/documentation of some questionable tree health and structure. I also couldn't just finish up the work around there, and go home with a clean conscience about ignoring these trees. They look like hell to me, so I want to do my research at AS, and make a conclusion about whether they are dangerous or not.

This first tree is a kind of eucalyptus. It's in an unusual area that is affecting it's health I think. The pictures show it's condition, but I'll describe the little spot it's in. I

t's at the bottom of a 30ft hill. I was installing some oleanders in a row down the hill side, and noticed that anywhere from 3-7 inches below shovel soft dirt there is a hard layer. First of all the dirt there is a more like a large grain of sand somewhere in between dirt and sand. Then that hard layer is not shovel soft at all. I had to use a pick, shovel it out, pick, shovel... It's like a compacted gravel sort of mix or a loose cement, and it has a high rate of a black criselus like substance consistently through it. There are trees growing in this stuff, but I question I question how well. They don't seem too healthy to me.

The tree in question is the biggest euc in the middle here below:

DVC00220-1.jpg


The thing is riddle with cuts and tears on its central and peripheral structure. I think that these things are a prelude to something nasty. First of all, this species gets almost twice this size. I don't see how a tree with these lacerations which are obviously augmenting can support its own weight when it's on the mature end of its life. You can see that if the top 2/3 of the tree goes over at the bottom, red circle, it's going to crush his fencing, and when it's more stories high, it's going to get his garage there on the left.

The red circles depict some of the major horizontal lacerations in the trunk, and the red squares depict some of the most significant tears running along the bottom of the branch.

Below are the pics of the biggest cut in the trunk which has me most concerned. It's the one in the lowest, red circle above:

DVC00205.jpg

DVC00204.jpg

DVC00224.jpg

DVC00223.jpg

DVC00222.jpg


Below are only few of the many more tears and cuts through out the tree. Also I should mention the very young tree to the right of this one already has some of this in its main central structure too. There are many more of these than what I'm showing. These ought to be enough pictures to determine whether this tree is to be a future "gone with the wind" drama or these marks are natural.

DVC00216.jpg

DVC00212.jpg


I'd remove any of these trees with these marks on them. Knowing the universal reputation of eucalyptus structure, and after working with some of them, I'd say that this is a situation of pay for the removals now, or pay for the fence and/or garage later and maybe a funeral too. I also am eager to read from some our known AS constituents out there about whether or not this is its natural pattern. Given the flakey nature of the bark/skin here these effects may be normal.

I've described the soil there at the top. The trees around seem awkward too. The oleanders near there are vey thin. Usually oleanders are flush and bushy, but you can see right through these as if they weren't even bushes at all to begin with. It's very surprising.

Then there are the two trees which have grown on their sides horizontally. One was a full sized tree like the big eucalyptus above, but it only grew up about 10ft in a few different trunks, and it grew the rest of itself along the ground taking root from the branches. We thought we were taking out a small, dead tree there at first, but as I was removing it I discovered all of the bushes behind it were this tree which spread out all over the place down there.

There is also a 35ft eucalyptus tree that grows upward only 10ft, and it grows the rest of the way horozontally. That tree is going to contiue to grow longer and onto the ground if not snap off.

There are also two pine trees that are very sickly looking near there. The needles are very, very sparse, and only the top ones have some green in them while the bottom ones are dead brown. I wasn't sure if this kind of tree could shed its needles. I've read some do.

Over all the area seems bad for any trees health. I'm not sure about the soil content, and I've watched documentaries about salt accumulation that comes with irrigation over hard soil like this. The salt kills farmers' crops here in CA. There is irrigation in these trees' area, and possibly there is similar problem for these trees. Maybe they just can't spread roots in that stuff. One last fact to consider is that about 50-70 ft away from these trees the rock bed is exposed through the soil. Possibly the underlying rock bed is not far enough down for the trees to boast of a expansive root system.

Will someone name the instances I've described here, and what you've seen or have been taught is the usual course of action for trees in this state? Thanks a million.
 
DVC00216.jpg


We call this a radial crack, it is from high wind motion where the lamination of the xylem could not withstand the torque. Many trees that have long limbs and heave tip loads will get this. You tend to see it more often as limbs get more horizontal.

DVC00224.jpg


This could be wind damage, ore construction. I see it sometimes where loaders or excavators push high on a stem. A fiber failure much like a barberschair. By the look of the wood around it the wounds look like they have been there for a while, and the tree is trying to compensate.

Read some of Mattheck for a better idea of what this is.
 
There are 894 Eucalyptus species if you include Corymbia and Angopohora. Pictures of the fruit (nuts) will make species ID much easier. Sans pictures I would "guess" these are E.camaldulensis aka River Red Gums. If so, these trees are best suited to high rainfall or at least well watered areas. When they lack water the bark splitting you see is quite common and may not be as bad as they appear. In Perth many E.camaldulensis have a similar appearance and remain stable. It is important to consider the whole tree and indeed the whole site rather than one symptom before condemning these trees to an early death.

Knowing the universal reputation of eucalyptus structure, and after working with some of them, I'd say that this is a situation of pay for the removals now, or pay for the fence and/or garage later and maybe a funeral too

Do not buy into this commonly repeated legend. It is common for HO's to refer to any powder bark(smooth bark) Euc as a widow maker. These trees are no more prone to failure than any other species which is planted in the wrong place and given the wrong care.

Step 1. ID the species.

Step 2. Compare the species needs to its current enviroment.

Step 3. Take preventative action which may be as simple as adding mulch to the root zone and removing dead wood and conflicting branches.

If you plan to be a tree professional as opposed to a treelopper then do all the preparation possible before action. You cannot put back a tree that you removed for the wrong reasons.......
 
The soil definitely sounds like the limiting factor for a healthy landscape in this instance, as it is in all areas. Without good soil, you will not have healthy trees.

This next comment is after the fact, but I want to point it out for thought for the future not only to you but to others reading this.

We all have the tendency to have a predetermined image of what an "ideal" tree should be. However,the "ideal tree" will change from site to site and circumstance to circumstance within that site. The best tree, for this property, may well have been the horizontally-growing, re-rooted specimen you removed. It was adapting to its environment, would have remained safe for years, and could have been maintained as an ornamental with unique qualities.

Eucs are amazing trees and bend (break) many of the tree rules out there. However, the trees in these photos have been badly managed and now present potential problems for this homeowner. Tip reduction for many species would be beneficial to reduce the potential of wind/storm damage, however, eucalyptus are one of the most difficult species to achieve this successfully and the previous care of these trees limits this possibility even more.

Sylvia
 
Hate to tell you this FTA, but you are dead wrong on all your false assumptions concerning these eucs. The bark cracking and longitudinal stress cracking of the phloem and bark are all perfectly natural for that species of euc.

I can see you're a student that's going to need everything this forum can offer.

You should be very very careful in eucs FTA, particularly dead eucs, there are millions of them throughout SoCal right now, mainly red gums. If they have no leaves or twigs left on them, think twice about climbing them, get an expert with a crane or bucket.

If you post your pics on an Australian website, I'm sure you'll get an in depth education on the 1500+ varieties of eucs and some of their more interesting and very dangerous characteristics.

One of my favorite trees for beauty, grace and strength is the Eucalyptus citriodora or lemon euc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corymbia_citriodora


You should buy the sunset western garden book and use it each day at work to identify the trees around you during your lunch break.

Go to the SD Zoo and read the plaques at the base of the trees, it's a great way for an arborist to expand his tree ID abilities.

jomoco
 
agree with previous posters--many other management options before the basal cut. yes the crack looks typical and mitigable by reduction. even tho eucs lack interior laterals to cut to there are ways to lighten the ends if you can get out there.

the gash with the keys in it looks like a major issue with no callus response--jon what are you seeing to call this typical? red flag to me; i'd want to probe the interior for rot and codit before walking away from that one.
 
Hey "FortheAction", can I ask you a question. How are the trees out there in San Diego? IS that where you practice your trade? Is that where you do business? Are there a lot of trees out there? Big trees to work on??

The reason I ask is because I have been thinking about moving out there. Maybe working for a company while I also go to school. But I'm wondering if I can find many big companies with plenty of work to work for.

My friend in CO is telling me its like a desert out there with few trees and I should never leave New England!
:blob2:
 
My friend in CO is telling me its like a desert out there with few trees and I should never leave New England!
:blob2:

I have only visited San Diego once, but yes, it is a desert. It is filled with all the flowers and greenery that modern irrigation can provide. Nearby hillsides are covered with tough, short, scrub brush of varieties that I had never seen in the midwest.

When I was there, I was appalled by my sense of the oppressive effort being applied to the environment to force it into "green & beautiful". It is, of course, but at what cost?

Why do you think S. California has so many runaway fires? Remember the song "It never rains in Southern California..."
 
I have only visited San Diego once, but yes, it is a desert. It is filled with all the flowers and greenery that modern irrigation can provide. Nearby hillsides are covered with tough, short, scrub brush of varieties that I had never seen in the midwest.

When I was there, I was appalled by my sense of the oppressive effort being applied to the environment to force it into "green & beautiful". It is, of course, but at what cost?

Why do you think S. California has so many runaway fires? Remember the song "It never rains in Southern California..."

Poor albert hammond was dumb enough to try and open a T Rex concert here in San Diego, only to get booed off stage after having his mic unplugged by rowdy Marc Bolan fans, who obviously weren't there to hear no stinkin bubble gum pop music.

So Bolan comes on stage, turns his amps all the way up, and starts bustin his guitar strings raging at his audience for being so rude to poor crying albert!

The crowd loved it because Bolan was at his best all fired up and ticked off.

It was my first ever concert in 1975, and it was great!

Hammond should have fired his manager for not understanding what an insulting rock mismatch mixing T Rex with Albert Hammond really was. Luckily no-one was killed, but it did get a little ugly.

We get alot of eastern and midwestern climbers that come out to SoCal thinking they can climb anything here, until they see a few big eucs, then they get kinda quiet, then they strap there gaffs on shakin fearin for their lives!

The biggest nastiest eucs are up in the bay area of san fran though, big 200 foot globulus blue gum monsters, glarin down at yu, daring you to come on up.

The truth is that California has some of the biggest most challenging trees in the world to climb.

jomoco
 
I have two different conclusions about this tree. I personally would get it out of there right away, and beings there are no other trees next to it with a place to tie in, this will cost the HO more for a boom or crane. I wouldn't do any reductions to the tree simply because the canopy is so thin on this species it's just going expose all of the cuts to look like a frankenstein. Remove it.

Jomoco does live here though, and these trees are often found here, so maybe the tree will just out grow those things without any failures occuring.

I'd like to get a few more opinions from people that work with this sort of tree or are working with people that have worked with this kind for a few decades to understand the trees behavior in full spectrum. I'm still 50/50 about this tree.

treeco, quit hassling people about who to chat with and who not to chat with in my threads. That's really annoying. I'm capable of hiring or renting any equipment there are to offer. Try to assess the tree instead of assessing me like I'm some run of the mill drunky waking up everyday with a hang over and a dire need for a marijuana remedy. My head is on straight. Get that through your head, and I'll appreciate your "advice" to a much greater degree. I understand your concerns, but I also understand how clear headed I am about my work and so forth and that your concerns regarding me are irrelevant to a person of my pragmatic nature. I'm not furthering the subject about you nor myself any further. Who you and I are are not even relevant to this thread, so don't bother smearing another word about who I am or am not. It will happen though, and it will be ignored.

I hate to sound like a crab here, but I'm trying to get things done not have them stopped because of the people that want to right up in my face as is the case on all internet forums. I really hate to write like a crab here, but need to keep some credibility to some of the people here while some others try to keep me out of the know. My intentions are OK, so I'm not going to feel ashamed about anything except a little about the need to bop back at the boppers clogging up my threads. I can appreciate all of you arborists and treeworkers whether or not you're OK with me. I'm a man, and that's something that I can do besides work on a tree. You guys are in the same line of work, and that's something I can understand.

While I'm at it I want to say I do give away alot positive rep points to those that give me answers to my questions or have good answers or attitudes in others' threads. There is no oher way to compensate those "well to do people" from around the world that take the good time out of their days to put into words what they've seen and/or heard about aspects of tree and the tree business. I'm off the subject and blathering, and I hate that.
 
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I have two different conclusions about this tree. I personally would get it out of there right away, and beings there are no other trees next to it with a place to tie in, this will cost the HO more for a boom or crane. I wouldn't do any reductions to the tree simply because the canopy is so thin on this species it's just going expose all of the cuts to look like a frankenstein. Remove it.

Dan after reading the above it's clear that basal pruning is the Action sought here:clap:, and other options and even basic assessment is not familiar territory to the poster. When I recommend reduction it should be understood that the work would be done by a competent climbing arborist.

FTA, one step at a time, read up on this stuff before doing it, and you will do fine!

O and Jon nice anecdote about the concert--I gotta tell you about CCR in Denver in 68 sometime, or dancing in the mud to a nonstop Tommy opera performance at woodstock, but back on topic--are those long deep gashes with no callus that common in eucs in san diego? Never saw one like that in the few eucs i've worked with, and it would be a huge crimson flag for me until i sussed it out.

Greenstar, the best arb schools in the land are near you--why move to go to school?
 
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but back on topic--are those long deep gashes with no callus that common in eucs in san diego? Never saw one like that in the few eucs i've worked with, and it would be a huge crimson flag for me until i sussed it out.

What you're assuming is an unhealed deep gash, is anything but that, it's better described as buttressing plates on blue gum eucs, and they're perfectly natural, just like the longitudinal phloem and bark splitting stress marks are, neither extends into the xylem, or show the xylem as visible through the supposed cracks.

All these unusual bark and phloem growth characteristics are entirely natural in globulus eucs here in SoCal.

Come out and climb a big 150 foot euc in Balboa Park with no gaffs sometime, cause it aint easy, it takes confidence and trust in your climbing technique, and knowing it's safe limitations in varying species of eucalyptus, which are actually amazingly strong, some species weigh in on par with oak.

The problems with eucs all center on their limb shedding being a natural growth habit in so many of the most popular species.

The whole story behind how eucs came into the US for use as railway ties 100 some odd years ago, is based on a false assumption about euc wood characteristics also, that ended in early retirement and ridicule for the botanist/arborist whose idea it was.

jomoco
 
jomoco, I heard that story about the track ties too. I was looking as some eucs along the road today, and I noticed the same splits in their phloems too. They are under obvious maintainance, and they are not being removed, so... I think I learned something important here today. Thanks.

treeseer, the climbing is not at all a problem. I don't know what gave you that idea. That's OK though.
 
What you're assuming is an unhealed deep gash, is anything but that, it's better described as buttressing plates on blue gum eucs, and they're perfectly natural, just like the longitudinal phloem and bark splitting stress marks are, neither extends into the xylem, or show the xylem as visible through the supposed cracks.

All these unusual bark and phloem growth characteristics are entirely natural in globulus eucs here in SoCal.

Come out and climb a big 150 foot euc in Balboa Park with no gaffs sometime,
Love to; with bigshot and wraptor even this oldfolk could do it. haven't seen that park in some years; beauteous place as i recall.

ok if wood is undamaged then the phloem can split all it wants. how long does it take for those open cracks to seal over?
 
Love to; with bigshot and wraptor even this oldfolk could do it. haven't seen that park in some years; beauteous place as i recall.

ok if wood is undamaged then the phloem can split all it wants. how long does it take for those open cracks to seal over?

Seal over what? Inside that crack is an inch or more of phloem covering the xylem.

Eucalyptus are some of the fastest growing trees on the planet. That they're an inappropriate choice of tree for high trafficked areas below them has been a goldmine for arborists in CA.

There are eucs that shed bark patches big enough and heavy enough to brain a full grown man below!

An arborist could spend his entire career studying and dissecting eucs, much like I have, and barely scratch the surface of true knowledge about them. Particularly some of the symbiotic relationships between them, insects, animals, fungi, and bacteria.

We haven't even scratched the surface of true knowledge of arboriculture in general in my opinion.

The argentine ant's relationship to red gum eucs and the Lerp psyllid is a prime example of how little is known of symbiotic tree and insect relationships.

jomoco
 
I heard a story about a branch falling off, and killing someone in Balboa Park. That was a euc.

So what is a typical maintainance plan for your outfit to take on the eucs? I assume reduction, reduction, reduction. Really though, what is the sign that determines whether or not the the branches need to be reduced? How can you tell when too much weight has been accumulated, and when there is not to much? That sounds like some powerful conversation to have with people about their eucs. Either reduce or die it seems like what I'd be explaining to them.

Those eucs in the pics on this thread are far from needing a trim right? I know some work done when they are young can set a course for proper weight dispersment in their mature age, and realize the ones in the pic are very young.
 
I heard a story about a branch falling off, and killing someone in Balboa Park. That was a euc.

So what is a typical maintainance plan for your outfit to take on the eucs? I assume reduction, reduction, reduction. Really though, what is the sign that determines whether or not the the branches need to be reduced? How can you tell when too much weight has been accumulated, and when there is not to much? That sounds like some powerful conversation to have with people about their eucs. Either reduce or die it seems like what I'd be explaining to them.

Those eucs in the pics on this thread are far from needing a trim right? I know some work done when they are young can set a course for proper weight dispersment in their mature age, and realize the ones in the pic are very young.

And you would once again be wrong, wrong, wrong in your silly assumptions regarding proper euc pruning maintenance.

Light thinning of the canopy in the class one sense of fine pruning that allows the wind through it has always been the optimum gold standard for pruning eucs, and most other trees as well. Small fine thinning cuts being preferable to larger cuts to reduce the tree's size in terms of height or reach.

Anytime your pruning triggers a tree's suckering response, you have pruned too much out of the tree. A tree's ability to hold a fine pruning without suckering for 3-4 years is an excellent indication of an arborist's fine pruning skills, an almost lost art now in my opinion, exacerbated by amateurs intent on size reduction that triggers a vicious cycle of bi-annual butchery of nothing but weakly attached tertiary suckers.

In all honesty our ignorance of trees in modern arboriculture far exceeds our skills for giving the trees what they truly need.

Most of our tree problems are of our own making in my opinion.

A properly pruned tree should be almost indistinguishable from the tree prior to pruning, just a little thinner canopy that can be seen through with a uniform density of foliage.

jomoco
 
And you would once again be wrong, wrong, wrong in your silly assumptions regarding proper euc pruning maintenance.

Light thinning of the canopy in the class one sense of fine pruning that allows the wind through it has always been the optimum gold standard for pruning eucs, and most other trees as well. Small fine thinning cuts being preferable to larger cuts to reduce the tree's size in terms of height or reach.

Anytime your pruning triggers a tree's suckering response, you have pruned too much out of the tree. A tree's ability to hold a fine pruning without suckering for 3-4 years is an excellent indication of an arborist's fine pruning skills, an almost lost art now in my opinion, exacerbated by amateurs intent on size reduction that triggers a vicious cycle of bi-annual butchery of nothing but weakly attached tertiary suckers.

In all honesty our ignorance of trees in modern arboriculture far exceeds our skills for giving the trees what they truly need.

Most of our tree problems are of our own making in my opinion.

A properly pruned tree should be almost indistinguishable from the tree prior to pruning, just a little thinner canopy that can be seen through with a uniform density of foliage.

jomoco


Around here thier are alot of amatures. but as far as pruning most peoples idea of pruning a tree in my area is topping it or polarding. 90% of the time even if you advise them against it thats what they still want. they always say the tree is to tall, and they want it smaller.
 
Around here thier are alot of amatures. but as far as pruning most peoples idea of pruning a tree in my area is topping it or polarding. 90% of the time even if you advise them against it thats what they still want. they always say the tree is to tall, and they want it smaller.

I know what you mean, I know it goes on every where but seems bad in this area. I heard one time that Lancaster county is the worst county in the country for tree topping. I refuse to top trees if HO wants it. I try to talk them out of it or into just removing the tree instead of topping. If that doesn't work than I half to walk away.
 
So back to the OP. Have you collected fruit(nuts)/leaves/flowers from the eucs so they can be id'd? A photograph of each against a scale item will be useful. Once the species is known then the discussion will be far more pertinent. Guessing about tree care for a genus that can range from 5 metres mature height to 90 metres mature height is not going to help the HO or anyone else for that matter.

Jomoco you have said a lot about E.globulus is that what you think these Eucs are?
 
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