facecut always needed???

[redoakneck]

I was felling some 24-27 diameter trees with the tops ripped off them from IKE 2 years ago. Most were 40-60 feet tall. One was leaning about 10 degrees the way it was going to be dropped anyway. A buddy says you don't even need to notch or face cut that one-- I insisted yes you do or a barber chair could occur.

Am I right??? After seeing a 30 foot barber chair crack and come down behind the back side I face notch everything I fell and have had no problems.

Is there ever a reason not to cut a notch??? We do not worry about wasting firewood- the tringles burn just like the splits.

 

[REJ2]

Seems a sure way to pinch the bar. REJ2

 

[tlandrum]

if you know what your doing you can walk a tree off the stump without facecutting it

 

[PLMCRZY]

Why wouldnt you use a facecut.....just sayin'

 

[tlandrum]

funny enough ting,is that the only barber chairs i have ever had were faced trees not trees that i walked off the stump. im sure we have other professional hardwood loggers that have done this besides me, i would not recomend an unexperienced cutter to do this

 

[tlandrum]

i will say that if a tree has too much lean there are other cutting methods to use, like knotch tree then step back a couple of inches behind the hinge
point and bore thru the tree and cut from hinge to back strap and wah lah no barber chair

 

[ZeroJunk]

Sometimes I put the loader up against a tree and push it the direction I want it to go. An old operator told me I shouldn't notch trees I push, so I don't. I guess the thinking is that you want all the wood holding to keep it from potentially coming back over top of you, and it can't barber chair with the loader holding it.

 

[tlandrum]

Why wouldnt you use a facecut.....just sayin'

a face cut is not always needed, im not saying that every other firewood cutter out there needs to be cutting this way but experiencd tree fallers that make there living falling trees have a big bag of cutting tricks and you pull the one that works at the tree your on and go for it. on clear cuts i walk 90% of the 14" and under trees of the stump and keep on truckin

 

[redoakneck]

thanks, until I get some more experience I'll stick with the face cut technique. My buddy has a big loader but I usually don't have one handy at other places I cut at.

We take some trees down with that loader by just pulling them out of the ground like a weed!!! Getting a lot of osage orange with the pull down with the BIG loader method--I want one of those!!

The name of the game is NO PAIN:greenchainsaw:

 

[rwoods]

Sometimes I put the loader up against a tree and push it the direction I want it to go. An old operator told me I shouldn't notch trees I push, so I don't. I guess the thinking is that you want all the wood holding to keep it from potentially coming back over top of you, and it can't barber chair with the loader holding it.

I thought a barber chair is where the tree splits and raises the hinge point thus increasing the possibility of the feller getting hit by the tree butt. If so, I believe a loader pushing or using a rope to pull will not prevent a barber chair and could actually cause one. There are of course plenty of situations where pushing or pulling is necessary or safer.

funny enough ting,is that the only barber chairs i have ever had were faced trees not trees that i walked off the stump. im sure we have other professional hardwood loggers that have done this besides me, i would not recomend an unexperienced cutter to do this

i will say that if a tree has too much lean there are other cutting methods to use, like knotch tree then step back a couple of inches behind the hinge
point and bore thru the tree and cut from hinge to back strap and wah lah no barber chair

I dare say that you as a logger may fell more trees in a month than I have in 40 years so I'm listening and learning with my questions not challenging. Barber chairs have always concerned me as a firewood cutter. Too many weekend lumberjacks have been hurt or killed by them (I'm sure too many pros too). When you know someone who spent 15 years in the nursing home in a non-communicative state before dying as a result, you can't help but have this possibility in mind. I "hit the books" to learn to face cut 30 years ago after I experienced my first barber chair felling a 20" to 24" red oak with a little Mac 510; I also bought a bigger saw. I taught myself the bore cut method about 2 years ago felling a dead 36" red oak that had me a little more scared than usual - it just seemed to be logical especially with me using a 28" bar as I want to avoid being behind a tree I am felling as much as possible, which is one reason I run longer bars than most firewood cutters around here. I don't understand why a face cut would increase the chance of a barber chair on a sound tree. I am beginning to wonder a little as I have had only the one experience until two weeks ago when I cut an 18" sound but dead white oak to clear a path for a much larger red oak I was preparing to fell. I believe I did a text book face cut but I got a little low on the back cut and the tree split almost 10 feet before hinging on its own. I certainly didn't impress the landowner. I don't know what factor the tree being dead played or my poor back cut. I blamed it on both. I hate cutting dead trees as much as I fear getting hurt by a barber chair. The next dead tree I cut that day, I strapped it with a three inch strap as a preventive device but that poses additional risks and certainly would be too time consuming for a real logger. So any preventive advice or explanation you might give would be welcomed. And if you're willing, I would like to know what you mean by "walking" a tree. Thanks, Ron

 

[lfnh]

I was felling some 24-27 diameter trees with the tops ripped off them from IKE 2 years ago. Most were 40-60 feet tall. One was leaning about 10 degrees the way it was going to be dropped anyway. A buddy says you don't even need to notch or face cut that one-- I insisted yes you do or a barber chair could occur.

Am I right??? After seeing a 30 foot barber chair crack and come down behind the back side I face notch everything I fell and have had no problems.

Is there ever a reason not to cut a notch??? We do not worry about wasting firewood- the tringles burn just like the splits.

Notch it.
2 year old trees with blown out tops, eyes up for sky bombs.

Be safe.

 

[PLMCRZY]

a face cut is not always needed, im not saying that every other firewood cutter out there needs to be cutting this way but experiencd tree fallers that make there living falling trees have a big bag of cutting tricks and you pull the one that works at the tree your on and go for it. on clear cuts i walk 90% of the 14" and under trees of the stump and keep on truckin

I understand, im still new so i will stick with the face cut....

 

[tlandrum]

walking a tree on the stump is simply just cutting into the tree on the side its leaning to until you see it start to move then you simply walk the saw around the tree watching that as the tree is setting down it dont pinch your bar . the tree will commit to its lean side as your cutting it an then before it stops moving toward the lean you cut it off the stump and let it go. its hard to explain and i would not want anyone to try it until being shown first hand how it works. its not the safest way to fall timber by any means it just works well in high production. and the barber chair you had was simply becouse you did not heart the tree and white oak is bad for a barber chair if its not hearted out.

 

[ZeroJunk]

I thought a barber chair is where the tree splits and raises the hinge point thus increasing the possibility of the feller getting hit by the tree butt. If so, I believe a loader pushing or using a rope to pull will not prevent a barber chair and could actually cause one. There are of course plenty of situations where pushing or pulling is necessary or safer.

If I am pulling a tree I notch it. If I'm pushing I don't. Normally if you are pulling or pushing you are trying to make the tree go against the lean. If not there would be no point in it. A tree is not going to barber chair against it's lean unless the equipment operator screws up and breaks it off. Gravity is working the other way.

 

[rwoods]

Sometimes I put the loader up against a tree and push it the direction I want it to go. An old operator told me I shouldn't notch trees I push, so I don't. I guess the thinking is that you want all the wood holding to keep it from potentially coming back over top of you, and it can't barber chair with the loader holding it.

I'm a little slow. Upon reflection, I see now that you were talking about a bad leaning tree barber chairing due to the lean - in other words splitting on the face cut side and falling backwards. You are right that a loader pushing against the lean could possibly prevent that type of barber chair. With my limited experience, I was thinking only about a barber chair that occurs on the back cut side. Ron

 

[rwoods]

walking a tree on the stump is simply just cutting into the tree on the side its leaning to until you see it start to move then you simply walk the saw around the tree watching that as the tree is setting down it dont pinch your bar . the tree will commit to its lean side as your cutting it an then before it stops moving toward the lean you cut it off the stump and let it go. its hard to explain and i would not want anyone to try it until being shown first hand how it works. its not the safest way to fall timber by any means it just works well in high production. and the barber chair you had was simply becouse you did not heart the tree and white oak is bad for a barber chair if its not hearted out.

I hate to be so ignorant and to exhibit it publicly. But I'm not sure I know what you mean by hearting it out. If you mean cutting completely through the heart - you're right I hadn't made it all the way before it split. I did realize at the time that if I was cutting a little faster I probably would have beat the split but as I said I hate cutting dead trees and I tend to go a little slow. It is not the unexpected core so much as it is worrying about the top or branches breaking and hitting you in the head as your running the saw. I'm sure you have been there more times than you can count. Thanks, Ron

 

[tlandrum]

what i am talking about is the center fibre on the tree, if you have it all cut out before you put your felling cut in ,it will generally not barber. on white oak the grain is so straight that it will split very easy and if your not fast enough on the back cut and the tree has a lot of weight tension on it, it will split before it reaches its breaking point

 

[Eccentric]

I hate to be so ignorant and to exhibit it publicly. But I'm not sure I know what you mean by hearting it out. If you mean cutting completely through the heart - you're right I hadn't made it all the way before it split. I did realize at the time that if I was cutting a little faster I probably would have beat the split but as I said I hate cutting dead trees and I tend to go a little slow. It is not the unexpected core so much as it is worrying about the top or branches breaking and hitting you in the head as your running the saw. I'm sure you have been there more times than you can count. Thanks, Ron

what i am talking about is the center fibre on the tree, if you have it all cut out before you put your felling cut in ,it will generally not barber. on white oak the grain is so straight that it will split very easy and if your not fast enough on the back cut and the tree has a lot of weight tension on it, it will split before it reaches its breaking point

Yep. On oaks like that, I'll do a boring cut in the face to cut the heartwood before making the back cut. That is on the oaks that aren't rotton in the center anyways. Most larger oaks around here seem to be rotton to some degree. Keep the boring cut level. You've also gotta know where your bar tip is at all times during that boring cut so you don't end up unintentionaly making the back cut from within the face!

 

[Anthony_Va.]

I have had a few barber chairs from hard leaning trees. Not being able to finish the cut fast enough can make it more likely to happen. Hard leaning trees are dangerous. Not facing one makes it even worse, unless to are cutting it like TLandrum said. I only do that on trees around 10-15" or smaller and wouldnt recommend it on anything 20" or bigger. Big trees need to be faced. Broken up or rotten trees need faced also. You don't want to be standing under a tree full of dead limbs trying to walk it off a stump.

 

[imagineero]

When I used to do forrestry work we'd have one guy on the crew thinning out trees while the rest were pruning. The idea is to drop damaged or badly shaped trees that aren't going to make furniture grade. This gives the other trees room to grow as they are intentionally overplanted to start out.

You get paid per tree, so you try to drop'em quick. A lot of the time we wouldnt make face cuts. There rarely was a lean, but we are talking small trees here. Pines at 15~25 years, but they were agressively pruned to promote growth so by 25 they could be 35'+. The younger ones you could push over by body weight alone

In a situation like that its not hugely dangerous to have no notch. As the tree gets bigger, you're starting to take chances. One thing worth noting that nobody else seems to have mentioned (because it's so obvious?) is that a notch lets you aim the tree. Even with a fairly steep lean, a notch can give you 20~30 degrees of 'steer' when dropping. Even more if you want to get into fancy corkscrew style notches. I've seen a guy drop a fairly severely leaning tree 180 degrees opposite to its lean by twisting it round as it fell with a corkscrew notch.

The other thing I find about having a notch is that it makes the 'let go' so much more predictable timing wise.

Without a notch, you're sort of taking your chances on where its going to land.

Shaun