Get good on the system you are using and go from there. As you get better, you make more money, you pick up something new and keep going.
Jeff
Jeff
Climbing Techniques
- Thread starter Redman-Racer
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TreeAce
Addicted to ArboristSite
I use srt to get to the top of tall trees then switch over to drt once I get up there. The biggest reason for me to srt is that I have always found it to be a HUGE pain n my butt to get a clear path to the top if i go drt. But if I just tie off end of my climbing line then im on my way. I thinking setting ropes super high tends to be a pain. Although once done it can be pretty sweet. I use a big shot for the high set and that thing will really sling a throw bag. I am also amazed at how accurate it is. I also often use drt with a pantin and a handled acsender that is prusik corded back to my saddle. Then I have a blakes with a minder. This setup works well for me. I m not much good at footlocking but I also dont practice it like i would need to to get any good. I guess I started srt out of frustration with getting my line up high but yet without branches that will interfere with my ascent . Personally...I love all forms of tree climbing and think the whole thing is sweet and I would like to try out and hear about as much as I can.
So with all your experience, you must be a certified treeworker, right? If not, why not? How is you aerial rescue experience?
Jeff
TreeAce
Addicted to ArboristSite
So with all your experience, you must be a certified treeworker, right? If not, why not? How is you aerial rescue experience?
Jeff
Iam not a certified treeworker. But I do have 22 years of experence . I learned about climber rescue when I first started climbing . That was at Hocking Tech in Nelsonville Ohio . I have always worked for small companies prior to starting my own gig. In ethier case I am pretty much a one man show as far as climbing goes . There has always ethier not been another climber (OMG..who gonna save me?!?!) or not one good enough that any real high level rescue would even be nessesary. As soon as work stops for the winter I want to start studying for ISA cert arborist. Cert treeworker would be sweet as well.
TreeAce
Addicted to ArboristSite
I am also thankful that I have never needed to rescue anyone or needed rescued my self. Being Thanksgiving eve n all.
Cool, just saying because it has not happened does not mean it won't. Got my TW in '92 and alot has changed. If I were you, I would go for the cert tw and then the cert arb. You never know what job is just around the corner.
Jeff
Jeff
TreeAce
Addicted to ArboristSite
Cool, just saying because it has not happened does not mean it won't. Got my TW in '92 and alot has changed. If I were you, I would go for the cert tw and then the cert arb. You never know what job is just around the corner.
Jeff
You are right Jeff. Actually...from spending time on this site I have decided to crack down on PPE with my employees.Makes me feel stupid to have been so lax about it. Keep in mind that I am self employed. I am not sure what you meant about "job around the corner". But then again...it's true..you never know what may come up. Learning the newest techniques in aerial rescue could never be a bad thing . Even when your short on climbers to rescue, today..tomorrow may be different. Heck ...may even need to rescue some hack worken down the street someday. You NEVER know.
Let me ask you a question. You as the only climber, ( and probably no rescue climb kit, first aid,) or a groundie that can come and get you because who ever would of thought a guy like me could ever be on the end of a kick back or a brake that don't work? You got someone to come get you? The bigger you get the more people you need to look out for.
Quit trying to learn all these new tech stuff and focus on what you are doing right. You can then decide if you want to up-grade a little at a time and get to know each step. When you introduce a new tool, equiptment, or device, you train them all on it's use. I guess this was a long drawn out way of saying 'be careful'.
Jeff
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TreeAce
Addicted to ArboristSite
so what are u really tryn to say? That I have equipment I don't know how to use? Or that I am not qualified to use it? I am just not sure I follow you , like exactly what is your point? Be careful...OOOkk thanks. Maybe its your polite way of saying don't post your 2 cents if you are not part of the certified club / click that I am starting to think is a big thing on this site.
TreeAce
Addicted to ArboristSite
maybe that was an over reaction. sorry if I went off . I am prolly way off Jeff.
treemandan
Tree Freak
Very nice. I would think the thing about this set up is the other end of the line would be in the way of cutting/rigging, falling branches, actually, I kinda know it would.
This is the one reason I try to keep the amount of time I am working on srt to a minimum otherwise its very fluid and appealing and I would be careful about showing off your rope wrench like that. I mean we all appreciate it but maybe you should patent your idea before someone else makes 6 million off of it.
treemandan
Tree Freak
Let me ask you a question. You as the only climber, ( and probably no rescue climb kit, first aid,) or a groundie that can come and get you because who ever would of thought a guy like me could ever be on the end of a kick back or a brake that don't work? You got someone to come get you? The bigger you get the more people you need to look out for.
Quit trying to learn all these new tech stuff and focus on what you are doing right. You can then decide if you want to up-grade a little at a time and get to know each step. When you introduce a new tool, equiptment, or device, you train them all on it's use. I guess this was a long drawn out way of saying 'be careful'.
Jeff
Yes Jeff, its lonely up there for some of us.
treemandan
Tree Freak
Heh heh, its Granpa Jeff! Hell, 10 years ago I would be running for my life right now huh Jeff?
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
It's nice getting to know you guys.
Jeff, this has been said 11,866 times by members of these forums. You, personally have said it just over 8,000 times yourself.
LOL.
I have a really whacky thought, call me crazy, but IF,...... IF a gear setup allowed you direct and immediate access to the far-advanced end of the profession, and a noobie was given this system, he would have a series of advantages and abilities that a 22 year veteran might never know, and that an SRT climber would adopt simply because of speed and ease.
That piece, or system of pieces is around the bend. We really needed to solve for up/down SRT as we've been throwing tries at it for about the last 10 years. The unicender did it. And guys really, REALLY dug into the idea that a cord hitch needs to be the friction system for SRT, but Kevin Bingham cracked the up/down SRT code with a two-part, multi-piece system where the friction hitch is part of the system.
Now the goal, mine anyway, is to ascend twin, 'get to the top' switch midline into a friction piece that works both lines identically, or independently, with the option to use single line if and only when it serves you better than twin.
But on the way up, you have a Handsaw, maybe a pole pruner, likely a chainsaw. Occasionally cabeling gear.
Whatever friction gear you use, you need to be assured it will do as it promises and never fail and allow you hands-free abilities so you can work.
Arboriculture 101.
Jeff, this has been said 11,866 times by members of these forums. You, personally have said it just over 8,000 times yourself.
LOL.
I have a really whacky thought, call me crazy, but IF,...... IF a gear setup allowed you direct and immediate access to the far-advanced end of the profession, and a noobie was given this system, he would have a series of advantages and abilities that a 22 year veteran might never know, and that an SRT climber would adopt simply because of speed and ease.
That piece, or system of pieces is around the bend. We really needed to solve for up/down SRT as we've been throwing tries at it for about the last 10 years. The unicender did it. And guys really, REALLY dug into the idea that a cord hitch needs to be the friction system for SRT, but Kevin Bingham cracked the up/down SRT code with a two-part, multi-piece system where the friction hitch is part of the system.
Now the goal, mine anyway, is to ascend twin, 'get to the top' switch midline into a friction piece that works both lines identically, or independently, with the option to use single line if and only when it serves you better than twin.
But on the way up, you have a Handsaw, maybe a pole pruner, likely a chainsaw. Occasionally cabeling gear.
Whatever friction gear you use, you need to be assured it will do as it promises and never fail and allow you hands-free abilities so you can work.
Arboriculture 101.
kevin bingham
ArboristSite Operative
There is currently a patent pending on the rope wrench. One of the things of the rope wrench that I personally love is the nature of it being very simple and easily handcrafted by the climber.
I would love to make a ton of money on the rope wrench. but I would also love to see climbers coming up with their own creative versions. I have already seen a couple. As long as they don't go into business selling them with out working with me, than I fully support their efforts and improvements.
I also want people to be extremely careful when jumping out on to single line, there are a lot of things that need to be thought about that you dont have in dDDRT. I think we need to do a lot studies on the nature of various hitches on rope. I am not finding a whole lot on the subject.
I would train a new climber on 1:1. I would not bother with ddrt but just mention it and let the climber try it at some point to see what he is missing.
On your other point, If there is any reason I am going to have rigging or large branches swinging around, than it means than I Probably will have a block placed somewhere in the top of the tree. This means that I will have to return to near my tie in Point at some point during the climb anyway so retrievablity is of no concern. I will simply tie a running bowline at my tie in point and use a shorter rope. When I clean my rigging at the end of the day, I tie my rigging line to the eye of my bowline, grab my block and descend. I use the rigging line to pull out the running bowline. If its a removal, than I just cut my way down the tree.
For large tree pruning, I will tie off at the base of the tree, Often times I will be a couple of trees away through the canopy and run out of rope. I will tell the ground person to untie the trunk tie and I will pull my rope through the canopy, drop it down to her and she will tie it to the new tree. My record is 9 trees without touching the ground. I am most often nowhere near the backside trunk tie. It can be quite dangerous and quite easy to burn 150 feet of rope through the canopy and end up at the end of your rope. Something to be mindful of.
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Mike Cantolina
Addicted to ArboristSite
Great thread.
Treemachiine,
I understand how much faster 1:1 is versus 2:1 but isn't it true that the effort would be about the same? Especially if I use an adjustable false crotch with a pulley? I would have to move twice as much rope but with only half the effort. (provided friction is minimal) This also solves the problem of isolating your line. I realize there is much more force at the tie in point.
I do agree with you about having to deal with so much slack after the ascent(limb walk return) and believe as you that one mechanism that will accommodate all 3 methods should be our goal.
Treemachiine,
I understand how much faster 1:1 is versus 2:1 but isn't it true that the effort would be about the same? Especially if I use an adjustable false crotch with a pulley? I would have to move twice as much rope but with only half the effort. (provided friction is minimal) This also solves the problem of isolating your line. I realize there is much more force at the tie in point.
I do agree with you about having to deal with so much slack after the ascent(limb walk return) and believe as you that one mechanism that will accommodate all 3 methods should be our goal.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
I have always termed is motion. Twice the motion. Half the effort. In a zero friction setting tha math works like 2:1 is half the forces necessary to hoist a load.
But in our world you are not hoisting a load. You are hoisting yourself.
And if you're in the 1:1 world you no longer hoist yourself. You travel up the rope. You use every advantage possible to minimize the effort in getting up and around. That means minimizing overall motion. 2:1 eats your effort and drinks your sweat.
SRT and twin do not.
kevin bingham
ArboristSite Operative
There are times in SRT where I am glad I am able to do a pullup. There are certain times in SRT . Especially when carrying a big saw when I would not mind being on 2:1. I will sometimes go to 3;1 climbing in these situations. Sort of a (RADS) One of the things that is necessary is to transfer more work to your legs.
I find In SRT I am standing more, either on the rope or on the tree. 2:1 climbing is done a lot with the arms because you can. This is something to get used to when changing over. I try to minimize how much I do with my arms, pulling yourself up the rope hand over hand in 1;1 will wear you out real quick. I do it now and again and it is definitely faster than in 2;1 but exhausting.
I end up climbing the tree a lot more in SRT. sometimes to ascend I climb out leads and kind of zig zag up the tree, sort of like switchbacks. climb out a lead, swing back to the trunk, walk up the next branch, swing back, etc. But I definitley try to use my leg, butt, and core muscles and preserve my arms for my handsaw.
I find In SRT I am standing more, either on the rope or on the tree. 2:1 climbing is done a lot with the arms because you can. This is something to get used to when changing over. I try to minimize how much I do with my arms, pulling yourself up the rope hand over hand in 1;1 will wear you out real quick. I do it now and again and it is definitely faster than in 2;1 but exhausting.
I end up climbing the tree a lot more in SRT. sometimes to ascend I climb out leads and kind of zig zag up the tree, sort of like switchbacks. climb out a lead, swing back to the trunk, walk up the next branch, swing back, etc. But I definitley try to use my leg, butt, and core muscles and preserve my arms for my handsaw.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Couldn't have put it better.
Removing slack tending from the menu of efforts is rather huge. For the 2-1'ers who have accepted this as part of the reality of climbing, moving onto something that involves either zero slack tending, or 1/2 what you're normally used to is efficiency hurdle #1.
Not having to hoist yourself and depend on your arms so much, efficiency hurdle #2.
Covering twice the distance with somewhat less than half the motion, huge efficiency hurdle #3
This is 1:1 vs 2:1.
Now comparing 1:1 SRT vs 1:1 twin, we pick up a few more nuggets of efficiency in Twin, because twin can do everything that SRT does, but often more effectively and easily. I've challenged myself on this thousands of times.
Twin, no base anchoring.
Twin, sharing of friction duties, 1/2 to each leg. SRT, one working leg only.
Twin you can 'drop in' to DdRT instantly, if need be.
Twin on 11 mm means a hand grip on rope diameter of an oval 22 mm
Twin distributes forces and heat.
For climbers who like fatter ropes, twin gives that hand, as well as feeling of being on a system that 'feel meatier'.
Basically, two lines can act as one, or two lines can act as two, but one line can only act as one line. These actions give advantages on ascent or downward adjustment.
Again, not dogging SRT or DdRT. The comparisons and differences and advantages of one rope technique over another is at the center of it all, not that Tree Machine prefers one over another.
I prefer the technique that serves me best in the moment of whatever tree, and what I happen to be doing in the tree.
If you go SRT, you are SRT, and that's that. If you set up for DdRT, you get 2:1 DdRT, and that's that. But if you go twin, and your device can handle the two ropes either together, or independently, you have the option to be 1:1 twin, 1:1 SRT or 2:1 DdRT, you choose in the moment. I know this is hard to wrap your head around, really, I understand how you could think, "How is that remotely possible?"
I'm just saying, with 100% confidence and certainty, that it is possible.
Removing slack tending from the menu of efforts is rather huge. For the 2-1'ers who have accepted this as part of the reality of climbing, moving onto something that involves either zero slack tending, or 1/2 what you're normally used to is efficiency hurdle #1.
Not having to hoist yourself and depend on your arms so much, efficiency hurdle #2.
Covering twice the distance with somewhat less than half the motion, huge efficiency hurdle #3
This is 1:1 vs 2:1.
Now comparing 1:1 SRT vs 1:1 twin, we pick up a few more nuggets of efficiency in Twin, because twin can do everything that SRT does, but often more effectively and easily. I've challenged myself on this thousands of times.
Twin, no base anchoring.
Twin, sharing of friction duties, 1/2 to each leg. SRT, one working leg only.
Twin you can 'drop in' to DdRT instantly, if need be.
Twin on 11 mm means a hand grip on rope diameter of an oval 22 mm
Twin distributes forces and heat.
For climbers who like fatter ropes, twin gives that hand, as well as feeling of being on a system that 'feel meatier'.
Basically, two lines can act as one, or two lines can act as two, but one line can only act as one line. These actions give advantages on ascent or downward adjustment.
Again, not dogging SRT or DdRT. The comparisons and differences and advantages of one rope technique over another is at the center of it all, not that Tree Machine prefers one over another.
I prefer the technique that serves me best in the moment of whatever tree, and what I happen to be doing in the tree.
If you go SRT, you are SRT, and that's that. If you set up for DdRT, you get 2:1 DdRT, and that's that. But if you go twin, and your device can handle the two ropes either together, or independently, you have the option to be 1:1 twin, 1:1 SRT or 2:1 DdRT, you choose in the moment. I know this is hard to wrap your head around, really, I understand how you could think, "How is that remotely possible?"
I'm just saying, with 100% confidence and certainty, that it is possible.
