Inside the 372XP X-TORQ
- Thread starter blsnelling
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tundraotto
Addicted to ArboristSite
so whats the problem? everyones happy - why are you the one queefing about it?
And you still haven't addressed the premise...why? Because you know I'm right? If not then how is what I articulated way way back when you got your self all twisted up out of sync with your philosophy of choosing how to spend your dollars? You are the ones who tried to pull the subject into all kinds of random directions...never once actually refuting what I said....a famous man once said a sucker is born every minute!
parrisw
Tree Freak
I'd like to know why you're so concerned about how other people whom you don't even know spend their money.
bcorradi
Arboristsite.com Sponsor
What are the premises again...I'm still confused?
Metals406
Granfodder Runningsaw
This is an interesting delima actually and I'm glad you asked this question! I don't have a beef with any of those things people are happy about..(people are happy buying cigarette's!)...as long as those spending their dollars understand the nature of the risk and the nature of the service they are purchasing! My desire is to advance the standards of performance modifications into those adopted by almost every other motorsport on the planet so when a customer decides to spend his dollars, there are tangible ways for him to choose one builder over another. Also an expectation level of what they will get for their dollars that matches the product infact delivered. If I buy a pipe from FMF for my CR450F..I know aprox. what that will do to the powerband of that motorcycle. There are all kinds of charts and tests from independent sources to verify the claims of FMF and those like them & also allow comparisons of the different products..obviously the market and the value of these mods don't justify that here..yet! So more of the proof and/ or insurance needs to fall on the builder. What we have here is simply hear say....and as you said everyone seems to be happy with that!
Since this isn't a mature business folks like Brad depend on customers to both risk their money and their equipment on modifications that may or may not be improvements for them over a period of time. This thread is documentation of that and how Brad dealt with essentially a customer funded R&D project. I have no issue as these two willingly worked this deal together. I would caution others by asking how do they know their saw will respond to what gains they have in mind after ONE saw build and all the hear say relative to that saw? Because there is no way to truely know what you will get in a deal such as this 372XT...and all the smoke and BS we just waded thru is all the info we get relative to these builds and customers. Basically the guist of these last few pages is to try and dilute my argument and bash any who question the validity of these "pitch your money into the void" approaches to buying saw mods!..We need to do better. This thread is also documentation on how folks use this forum to attempt to use complete BS to try and bluster & intimidate away true analysis of these subjective situations...I have to ask, what's in it for these guys?
This isn't a Brad bashing deal to me at all. Its a question to all here who would play in this random mod game for entertainment and fun...and ask for someones saw AND their money to do so! Nothing wrong if all those in the barrel understand their risk....and willingly take the plunge!
The second part of my premise is without the large amounts of R&D time...racing is in fact a cheap way to compare! So define a "woods port" class and have at it! Would be fun for all involved and the competition would give tangible numbers to the builders concepts and give customers/fans data that can help guide their purchases and therefore provide incentives for builders to do..research! (U know win on Sunday, sell on Monday approach) That's it. So what do YOU think is bothering those who have attempted to filibuster this issue and premise away? The most technical arguments so far are..that I'm a jerk..and I edited my posts...and I call them monkeys!!! Is that enough to convince you NOT to do some homework before spending your hard earned cash AND the cash invested in your saw? Certainly isn't for me! But that all they have as rebuttals.
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I'm more concerned about people who claim to be expert in these matters influencing those who aren't to spend their money. The concept of fraud comes to mind. If you haven't noticed, money is hard to come by and therefore should be treated with respect..especially when its not yours.
MCW
Somebody's talking crap here & it ain't the tree!
I had a whole line up of your posts to quote but in the end have only attached one.
Let's be frank, you're having a crack at Brad. The above post pretty well proves that. You've been beating around the bush for many pages now, using Oxford Dictionary type lingo in your posts to try and worm your way around the fact that you are indeed having a crack at Brad. There were a few guys earlier who called you out that at the time I thought may have been a bit premature. The further I've read the more they have been proven correct.
You've brought up R&D in motorsport. How the hell does that relate to a wood's ported work saw?
You've brought up race saws. How the hell does that relate to wood's ported saws? Are race saws suited to sustained use? No...
R&D in race saws? Hah hah. Classic. I think you need to study up on Research and Development as you have no idea what that term means. I've worked in Research and Development and if you think that playing with saws and making them faster is R&D you are wrong. It's trial and error and nothing more. Research and Development is about 500 steps above that and apart from the saw manufacturers themselves nobody here, or in the race saw world, can claim they are involved in any R&D programs. The term R&D is quite often used by the little guys to sound like big players. All I see is varying levels of trial and error.
Unlike many other saw modders and builders, Brad has been quite honest whenever he has made an error or a modification hasn't had the desired results.
I've had a number of saws modded by Brad with no complaints. He has been excellent to deal with, I haven't had any issues at all with his work, the saws have been reliable even under sustained felling use, and he has had in his bank account 1000's of my hard earned dollars without so much as trying to gouge one more cent out of me. Unlike many others here I have had stock saws to use alongside Brad's modded saws and there is a definate, tangible difference. There are other good modders for sure, but for those that are happy with Brad's work then why would they change?
You mentioned in the above quoted post "influencing" and "fraud". Give us credit mate, you're a tool and nothing more. You are alluding to the fact that any of Brad's customers have been ripped off (fraud) and have been "influenced" into getting their saws modded by him (so we're all stupid?).
I'll put all your posts into one smallish paragraph so it's a lot easier for others to understand where you're coming from...
Ahem...
Ready?
"Brad is using his AS sponsorship as a subconcious business tool to lure the unsuspecting saw owner into getting his/her saw modified. He does not have any sanctioned Research and Development backing so the saws he modifies will not be as reliable or perform as well as a saw produced by a government sanctioned, Research and Development chainsaw modification program. Brad should not be trusted with the customer's money as the customer is obviously too stupid to know what he/she wants. Oh, and Brad is also possibly fraudulent, because somebody with a lot of obvious credibilty said so (Sorry Brad but you're off to the big house by the looks of it - don't drop the soap but take your Dremel if at all possible - I may want you to be influencing me with your fraudulence again soon because you sucked so much at building my last saws)".
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little possum
Crash and Burn
He does a woods port mostly. And as long as him and Tree Sling'r are the sponsors, they will continue to get the business.
Unless you are with the "in crowd" you are out of the loop of others that port saws, thats all I was trying to say.
And I know that if Brad makes a error he would try to fix it or make it right, I know he was working on a saw I have now and had to make things right, but he wasnt afraid to fix the innitial problem in the get go.
Big difference in a woods port and a race saw. End of story.
I dont see the problem, or issue in which everybody has to ramble on about him modding saws. The woods port has been around for a long time, and helps production fallers get more wood on the ground.
Oh. My. God. :jawdrop:
I don't plan on posting much in here after this, but for the record, Eric had nothing to do with this. Weimedog barely has any clue who Eric even is, and vise versa. I'm not jumping up looking for an argument while trying to defend, I just figured I'd shed some light on the Eric presumption.
And there's the 681 talk again....
Correct me if I am wrong but it seems like there's some serious angst regarding that saw. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong - but it just kinda seems that way.
C'mon guys! Where's the chips?!
I don't plan on posting much in here after this, but for the record, Eric had nothing to do with this. Weimedog barely has any clue who Eric even is, and vise versa. I'm not jumping up looking for an argument while trying to defend, I just figured I'd shed some light on the Eric presumption.
And there's the 681 talk again....
Correct me if I am wrong but it seems like there's some serious angst regarding that saw. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong - but it just kinda seems that way.
C'mon guys! Where's the chips?!
See I really don't have as much problem with Brad as you would like me to have simply because he lays everything out for all to see and has basically sold exactly what he shows online. And everyone knows the gamble. Actually it appears to me Brad started by sharing his hobby and as a result is growing as a builder. The result is getting support from a group of folks who are a part of his growth partly because they fund his efforts. Rather than rephrase and put thoughts into my premise, just read and take it for face value. Since my posting might hit close to the concept folks here have a vested interest in, this gets those in the arena a little..nervous. So after a rephrasing attempt..my points are still the same. And yes...when attacked by the other so called "experts' I will get more pointed in my discussion. Don't add those returns to these attacks specifically to the discussion in general as it pertains to Brad..they are separate. And why I said several times Brad does a better job of marketing than these folks who are coming to his supposed aid.
So what exactly is your difference with my premise again..?
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So I guess you and I are actually in agreement on that derivative discussion...as I see that as well. But that is a discussion for another post! And would add Brad has educated many with postings and pictures of exactly what he does where some would never do that for fear of giving some special secrets away that they consider their competitive "edge". So those postings are his "documentation" of services rendered. Posts such as this are exactly about what Brad does.
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MCW
Somebody's talking crap here & it ain't the tree!
You seem to be saying that Brad is doing a good job of marketing as if it's a concious effort.
Have you ever thought that Brad is starting threads on saw modification because he enjoys it and likes to share his information?
Put it this way, I didn't start any of my tree felling threads to increase my tree felling business...
When you write "vested interest" it sounds like there is some sort of conspiracy going on instead of just a heap of happy customers looking after a good guy who has in turn looked after them.
8433jeff
Aftermarket connoisseur
Needs to be more chips under some peoples saws. Brads shown pictures, videos, and some others have also, including the Chucker. Don't see any from the dog guy, but he wants to tell people how to spend their money. I ain't got none to spend, so his advice is useless to me, and I haven't seen yet where it would be to anyone else. If I did have, I don't need a clown (I really think hes funny) to tell me how to spend it. Find the saw dyno guy and set something up, and people will flock I'm sure. If you need capital to get going, talk with Calvin, hes into this type of money making scheme. (BTW I haven't heard from him). As to win on Sunday, whens the last time someone went to the summer nats and then brought home a Ford with a 426 Chrysler Hemi in it, or expected it to get them to church in an under four second pass?
Simply racing improves the breed and is a tangible way for those who want to spend money to choose among builders. AND usually those who participate in those more "extreme" activities are proud to compare with others and it drives them to grow in their craft to..win races. Or endurance tests, what ever the game may be. Something that a place like this can define...the classes to compare works saws.
I guess you are saying that woods porting as a concept means a more random approach to spending some one's money is acceptable? Because using the cover of woods porting means that there is this implied gray area that all understand they are buying into? I would argue "woods" porting is even more important than race porting as many who are spending their money actually are using the results to earn a living! Or is their a difference in terminology where "woods porting" means "play porting" and there needs to be another term for defining modifications for pro's work saws....what would that be?
Why isn't an analogy such used as to describe Cam's for trucks..mid range cams, low range cams, etc that type of description applicable here? Why wouldn't all of you here who seem to object to these posts relative to the quantifying of a product take the approach of defining things that are measurable as ways to define these types of services? How can it be "ok" to invest the cost of a pro level saw plus time and materials to mod...over $1000 in many cases..on a totally random product concept? Maybe with proceeds from these builds can fund a dynamometer for the saw builders so there can be a more measured approach..why would you object to asking those who would risk 4 digit sums to come up with ways to quantify their product? Get a dyno reading of the before and after on a particular build...sell that gain as a repeatable product, then give dyno reports with the saws built as a tangible definition of the results..like a gun builder giving a target with a 5 shot grouping....I was hoping for and actually expected the discussion to turn more in that direction than the way it is at this point.
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Point is I'm not telling or selling anything! I'm asking for tangible things to compare so I can decide where to spend money. Consider me as a customer asking a very pointed question. WHY do I spend money in your or any other saw builders direction?
Brad does his thing and posts for all to see. I have no issue with that. Felling a tree is...lol VERY tangible! You say the tree is going down...and when its down you can say it...DOWN! Also you aren't posting here to derive business as I doubt a large percentage of your customers hang out here. Brad is a bit unique as this is a blend of hobby and business. But as I've said over and over before we all see that and either choose to participate or not, there is no problem as he literally hides nothing so I have no beef with that in any way. Actually I suspect he has spurred many to go places they never would have but for the pictures and postings he has done. I see Brad as an asset, not a liability to our community in any way. Having said that, here will no doubt be those who follow Brad in these endeavors with economic intent. I rather would like to see us creatively start to define tangible ways to measure the results of our "saw modification" hobby..so that if & when it turns into a business...the product is something a potential customer can quantify before spending dollars. So by building the precedent and maybe procedures to measure gains (or losses) now, we help those in the future who would dabble in this for what ever reason. Actually I was hoping Brad could lead the way in as creative a way as he has lead the way into modifying Strato saws! AND if you want to go into my original intent..I love that Brad took this saw and built it into something interesting as I remember all the "experts" whining about how the Strato saws are the end of saw modification as either a hobby or a business. Brad has effectively proved that is not true. And yet again my intent is to drive this discussion towards finding tangible ways to define the results of these projects...and to ask those who want to make a business to do their R&D on their own dime (Brad's has effectively done that as he has a partner..and they collectively funded this project...and this posting is a report of the results. All good stuff...and I have to add..a very tangible definition of what he does therefore no one enters into this with Brad without all kinds of prior information to pick over. About as open as it gets. Not all will do this is my guess) before selling it as a product. What would your objection be to that as a concept? Brad has done the honest thing in my mind by posting and reporting all that has happened. This is a great place to flush out what a product definition would look like..
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No fraud here. Only fraud I have seen is relative to ebay...I personally would rather not defend against personal attack which twists the responses away from my intent and makes things personal and let this post go back to a report on a creative build. And maybe if we were to start another thread on how to find ways to measure in a repeatable way saw modifications. Others may have an agenda or beef with some saw builder or another...I really don't. Just want to..yet again, as i have said multiple times in multiple ways,...figure out ways to define a standard methodology in defining and quantifying a product concept in a way potential customers can understand what they are getting for their money. That's it. No more no less. So I will not egg this on any more either and hope pictures and reports follow relative to Strato builds.
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