unusual amount of coals

Arborist Forum

Help Support Arborist Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I’ve been fighting excessive coal build-up (and resulting reduced heat output) ever since the weather turned cold… whenever temps drop into the lower teens or below. I bet I’ve hauled out at least a 55-gallon drum of coals since the first of the year. We’re lookin’ at a high of only about 4[sup]o[/sup] today, with winds nearing 30 MPH… so it will be one of those days. I’ve managed to make it a bit better over the winter by trying different things. I stopped using the draft control on the firebox… I just leave it wide-friggin’-open and control the fire with the flue damper. I clean ashes from the box every day, sometimes twice a day… when ash mixes with the coals, the ash further reduces air to them. I removed the firebrick from the sides and back, just left it on the floor of the firebox… which has increased the rate of heat transfer to the air around it. And on days like to today I just run the thing wide-friggin’-open; that seems to reduce coal build-up more than anything, but eats more wood than any other wood-fired appliance I’ve ever used (reloading about every 3 hours)… but at least we get high heat output all day long and the box don’t fill ¾ full of coals. That ain’t worth squat for cold overnights though… 64[sup]o[/sup] in here this morning.

The design of this EPA firebox (burning on a firebrick floor, air coming in over the top) works real well when temperatures are mild… say, mid-20’s or warmer… I use very little wood, loading it once in the morning and once in the evening. But the flaw in the design becomes more than evident when it turns arctic outside, especially if it stays that way for days. Really, over-all, what wood it’s saved me during the mild times just gets used up during the cold times. And when you figure the wasted heat because of hauling out coals to make room for more wood… I can’t say wood consumption has been reduced. What I can say is (during cold weather) we spend way more time babysitting the box while using more wood and putting up with colder morning in-house temps. The reason for this is simple… to make efficient use of the coal bed it must burn on a grate system where air is fed up from below. It’s the same principle of burning coal… it ain’t so much how much air is fed to it, put where that air is directed.

I’ve been doing some measuring and designing… I’m thinking I may leave the EPA firebox in place when I install the Daka furnace. That would give us a nice option next winter… we could use the EPA thing during mild times when we just need to take the chill off, and switch over to the real heater when that cold Canadian air moves in.
 
Not dumb but definitely stubborn as an ass. Bring that load of coals a few hundred miles north and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Call it what you will sir, I'd much rather be a toasty warm stubborn ass than a frozed up expert :laugh:
 
...I'd much rather be a toasty warm stubborn ass than a frozed up expert

I have no doubt that pile of coals keeps you warm in Maryland, your winter temperatures are darn near tropical compared to where I live. Like I said, a a pile of coals keeps us warm during mild weather (by-the-way, I consider mild weather to be anything above 15[sup]o[/sup]... above 25[sup]o[/sup] and spring has arrived). It seems your the one acting like an expert... and stubborn one at that.
 
I have no doubt that pile of coals keeps you warm in Maryland, your winter temperatures are darn near tropical compared to where I live. Like I said, a a pile of coals keeps us warm during mild weather (by-the-way, I consider mild weather to be anything above 15[sup]o[/sup]... above 25[sup]o[/sup] and spring has arrived). It seems your the one acting like an expert... and stubborn one at that.

I'm not trying to argue with you pal, and in no way would I consider myself an expert. I do know how to keep a warm house with what I've got. We've had our fair share of cold weather here I can tell you. Lighten up a bit would ya? This is supposed to be fun :D
 
Check post 11. Windy doesn't always equal good conditions for a strong draft. If it doesn't happen again then it was likely barometric conditions combined with a wood known to make lots of coals.

Here's another theory. The wind caused a really good draft that reduced the maple to coals quickly. The logs collapsed into a coal pile quickly and blocked off the primary air to some degree causing the coals to burn slowly.

As far as painting the walls, I have only just begun. If I am cold and the stove is full of coals the last thing I'm going to do is let them burn down and continue to be cold. The advice I gave is solid.

If you weed through the pi##ing contest on this thread there is some good advice here. I am am about 100 miles north east of the OP. My indoor stove Burned a little funny yesterday as well. It started out clear and cold and the temp rose almost to freezing by noon. There was also a low pressure system moving in. It is now warm enough for a rain snow mix. I would bet that the weather was the source of your excessive coaling.
 
Rake the coals into a pile near where the primary air comes in. Then place a nice dry piece of wood on top of the pile of coals and open the draft all the way. The coals will light the piece of wood and the open draft will burn the coals down.

In my stove the coals burn down near the door where the primary air comes in and the coals build up in the back of the stove. I make it a regular practice to rake the coals to the front every time I load the stove.

Sugar maple is the king of coaling.

That is the way to do it.Simple and efficient.
 
No that's not correct.
If they're bright translucent red with white edges and have short blueish flames sprouting from them... then they're getting plenty of air! And that ain't never gonna' happen unless they're burning on a grate with air being fed underneath it. Orange and glowing simply means they ain't dead yet.

Maybe not correct with your stove but I have 2 brick lined stoves and they both maintain a hot coal bed. With the one I do have to rake the coals forward to speed up the burn down to ashes.With the other I don't have to rake the coals forward.The one I have to rake is an EPA,the one I don't is an old Timberline smoke dragon. Neither has a grate.
 
I do know how to keep a warm house with what I've got. We've had our fair share of cold weather here I can tell you. Lighten up a bit would ya? This is supposed to be fun
I am having fun.
But when you’re talking about the amount of heat required, and therefore the type of appliance needed to accomplish that, you must recognize the reality. One reality is the average winter temperature runs 15-20 degrees warmer in most all parts of Maryland than it does here… and that difference is enormous when you’re talking heating. Another reality is our prevailing winter wind comes from the NNW, blowing cold out of Canada and stealing heat from most any structure at rapid rates. Another reality is the home I live in, like many homes in the rural Midwest, was built well over one hundred years ago (1899 in my case) by the landowner himself. There was no electricity or indoor plumbing until the 1950’s, when it was added… again, much of it by the land owner himself. The home was heated by a coal-fired furnace in the basement and a wood-fired cook stove until the 1980’s… when the coal-fired furnace was converted to oil. The house was built to last in harsh conditions… heavy rough-sawn lumber (much of it milled by the landowner/builder) set directly in a concrete foundation, lath and plaster walls, and a solid brick chimney running up through the center which was shared by the fired appliances. But there wasn’t insulation, double pane windows, hollow insulated doors and whatnot at the time, and the house still wears many of those self-made doors and windows… self-made because that’s how it was done out here at that time.

The reality is (even the homes built “out east” in 1899 were “more” modern than what landowner’s were building themselves here)… what can keep a "more" modern house warm, in climates near 20 degrees warmer (on average)… just ain’t gonna’ cut it out here. We need real heaters… heaters that pump out BTU’s at high rate for extended periods of time… and these new-fangled EPA stoves are simply a joke when the wind is blowing and temps drop down around zero (or below) for several days in a row. A bed of coals had better be screaming friggin’ hot or they’re worthless… the stove needs to be so hot you can’t stand within 8-feet of it. The reality is I heat my entire home, entirely with wood; and on days like today, when the wind chill factor is near -35[sup]o[/sup] I cannot afford to mess around with “burning down the coal bed”… if I lose the heat in my home it could take several hours, maybe days to get it back. I need a heater that burns the entire fuel load while pumping out high heat from fuel load start to fuel load end. If a huge bed of coals develop, at reduced heat output, I'm running out of space for more fuel... forcing me to haul them out, which is not an efficient use of that fuel no matter how highly efficient the stove is rated.
 
I have had more coaling lately, because I tapped into my stack of very dry white ash. I loaded my stove with a bunch of smaller diameter splits - three rows of three logs, each row alternating direction - and it was just cranking out heat. This allowed me to stop it down further than usual and it was doing that really neat blue plasma at the top of the firebox where the secondary air manifold outlets are.

Then I went to bed and did not bother with it until morning, so of course it coaled up more than usual as the draft setting was stopped down too hard later in the burn cycle. The house (log and stone from the 1830's with little insulation and single pane windows) was still nice and warm because all the stone around the stove had absorbed all that nice heat when it was cranking. Come morning I just had to rake them out and throw in some logs and we were burning like crazy in short order. I love me some coals!

Some of you guys make this too complicated. If I had opened the draft control slightly a little later in the cycle there wouldn't have been a coal left in the thing - no grate needed.
 
Both my draft and flue damper are wide open in weather like this... it don't matter, once the fire collapses into a bed of coals the air just flows over the top of them and the heat output is reduced by at least 50%. What I gain by leaving everything wide open is fewer goals because more of the fuel load is completely consumed before the collapse (especially towards the front). Yesterday was mild, low 20's, and I'd only had a small fire in the morning so I was able to completely clean out the box early last night. Temperatures started dropping hard around sundown and the house was cooling off... so I filled it full and started a fire around 8:00 PM or so (and left the draft and damper wide open). At 5:00 this morning (9 hours later) the box had cooled enough to cause the blower to shut down sometime in the night... and under a thin layer of ash was a coal bed around 3-4 inches deep towards the front, over 6 inches deep in the rear (I'm burning all Bur Oak). It was only 64[sup]o[/sup] in the house.

If I was still using the old smoke dragon (using the same fuel load) I would have damped it down last night and woke up this morning to a 70[sup]o[/sup] house, and would have only had a handful or two of small coals in the rear of the box... just enough to get the fire going again. But, the way it is, the wife will add wood a couple of times today keeping the house warm, the coals will continue to build up and when I get home I probably haul out a couple 3/4 full 5-gallon buckets of coals so I can make room for the "overnight" fuel load... 'cause there ain't any way in he!! that bed of coals will keep the house warm after dark in these temps.
 
Both my draft and flue damper are wide open in weather like this... it don't matter, once the fire collapses into a bed of coals the air just flows over the top of them and the heat output is reduced by at least 50%. What I gain by leaving everything wide open is fewer goals because more of the fuel load is completely consumed before the collapse (especially towards the front). Yesterday was mild, low 20's, and I'd only had a small fire in the morning so I was able to completely clean out the box early last night. Temperatures started dropping hard around sundown and the house was cooling off... so I filled it full and started a fire around 8:00 PM or so (and left the draft and damper wide open). At 5:00 this morning (9 hours later) the box had cooled enough to cause the blower to shut down sometime in the night... and under a thin layer of ash was a coal bed around 3-4 inches deep towards the front, over 6 inches deep in the rear (I'm burning all Bur Oak). It was only 64[sup]o[/sup] in the house.

If I was still using the old smoke dragon (using the same fuel load) I would have damped it down last night and woke up this morning to a 70[sup]o[/sup] house, and would have only had a handful or two of small coals in the rear of the box... just enough to get the fire going again. But, the way it is, the wife will add wood a couple of times today keeping the house warm, the coals will continue to build up and when I get home I probably haul out a couple 3/4 full 5-gallon buckets of coals so I can make room for the "overnight" fuel load... 'cause there ain't any way in he!! that bed of coals will keep the house warm after dark in these temps.
Well, typically my secondary combustion stove with a brick lined firebox will burn the coals down to only a few under the ashes at the back. Just enough to rake out and help get the next load going. There is clearly something wrong with your jury-rigged setup, and because you want a high constant temperature in your house (and with no adjustments whatsoever to the burn rate) you need more output capacity than you have. It is not a mystery.

Also, you say you are using the same amount of wood, but this does not account for the "couple 3/4 full 5-gallon buckets of coals" you are throwing away every day. Whatever heat your system is putting out it is doing without having extracted the energy from that, so it is in fact using less wood. You need a system that is properly engineered and properly sized for your needs (which, given your expectations, will need a very high output).

You can continue posting your anti EPA stove tirades everywhere, but many of us use them to keep warm and do not have the troubles you do.
 
I used to have those same troubles. My neighbor has those same troubles. It all depends on the stove and the location. There is a reason people love the old all nighters Non epa units. They could work in all conditions and locations. IMO not as efficient, or as nice to look at. I prefer an Epa stove, but it has to be the right one. My epa furnace makes burning wood a dream compared to my epa stove.
 
ive been on this site for a bit. sometimes i ask some advice, sometimes i give some advice that i believe may be helpful. i must admit that most of the time im just trying to have some fun. when i started this post it was because i was having an unusual issue. my wood is dry, my flue is clean, my draft is good, the wind is blowing the same as allways . i thought that maybe someone might have had a simular situation and could offer some advice.
thanks
 
It’s amazing to me that so many just can’t catch on to what’s going on here.

Let’s say the old smoke dragon was 55% efficient…
Let’s say my new-fangled EPA stove is 80% efficient…
And let’s go with 7000 recoverable BTU’s in a pound of firewood…
Now let’s say I put 40 pounds of oak in each stove (280,000 possible BTU’s)…

The old smoke dragon completely consumes the full fuel load in 6 hours (nothing but ash), while burning on a grate so the coal bed gets a ton of air up through it, producing near as much heat as the flaming fire, basically producing relatively even heat throughout the entire 6 hours… at 55% efficiency that comes to 140,000 or…
25,000 BTU’s per hour.

The new-fangled EPA stove requires 12 hours to completely consume the full fuel load (nothing but ash)… at 80% efficiency that comes to 238,000 BTU’s or…
18,000 BTU’s per hour… a full 7000 BTU’s less per hour.
But the problem is, during that last four hours of the burn cycle, those coals piled under the ash were not heating near as strong as the coal bed in the smoke dragon. And even after the 12 hours there’s likely still some unconsumed coals… meaning the burn cycle is actually longer, further reducing the hourly BTU output.

Yeah, the new-fangled EPA stove extracts more heat from a pound of wood… but it takes twice as much time to do it. Fuel efficiency and heating efficiency are two separate things… the first is worthless if the second ain’t enough to do the job. Like I’ve said before, my 20-year-old 4x4 pickup gets 50 miles per gallon of gas… IF I DRIVE IT 10 MPH! Just driving across Iowa I’d spend more in hotel bills than gas could ever cost me… I’d be better off driving 60 MPH @ 12 miles per gallon and not spend anything on hotels. Everything is a trade-off when it comes to energy… if all else remains equal, a 20% increase in power requires more than a 20% increase in fuel consumption and emissions. Yet for some reason, many are willing to believe the EPA has somehow taken wood-fired heating appliances and reduced fuel consumption, reduced emissions and, at the same time, increased power output!

It must be magic… friggin’ magic I tell ya’! If Einstein were still alive he’d be rewriting his theory!
 
ive been on this site for a bit. sometimes i ask some advice, sometimes i give some advice that i believe may be helpful. i must admit that most of the time im just trying to have some fun. when i started this post it was because i was having an unusual issue. my wood is dry, my flue is clean, my draft is good, the wind is blowing the same as allways . i thought that maybe someone might have had a simular situation and could offer some advice.
thanks
It seems to me that barring differences in wood, for whatever reason there was less airflow into the stove during that load, which could be from reduced draft or a more restrictive air control setting. I guess if it kept happening (a step change in how the system is working) then I'd be concerned about the flue. Otherwise it may have just been an unusual atmospheric condition that reduced the effective draft.

These stoves don't have a feedback control system, they rely on us to adjust them to compensate for changing conditions.
 
ive been on this site for a bit. sometimes i ask some advice, sometimes i give some advice that i believe may be helpful. i must admit that most of the time im just trying to have some fun. when i started this post it was because i was having an unusual issue. my wood is dry, my flue is clean, my draft is good, the wind is blowing the same as allways . i thought that maybe someone might have had a simular situation and could offer some advice.
thanks

Only time i've had something like that is with a sudden rise in outdoor temperature. Cold dry air provides good draft and has a roaring fire going, warm moist air moves in and kills the draft and the roaring fire turns into a bed of embers.
 
Throw a few chunks of hemlock in there and utilize them coals, they burn down to dust. Big coal beds happen just like #### ;)
 
It’s amazing to me that so many just can’t catch on to what’s going on here.

Let’s say the old smoke dragon was 55% efficient…
Let’s say my new-fangled EPA stove is 80% efficient…
And let’s go with 7000 recoverable BTU’s in a pound of firewood…
Now let’s say I put 40 pounds of oak in each stove (280,000 possible BTU’s)…

The old smoke dragon completely consumes the full fuel load in 6 hours (nothing but ash), while burning on a grate so the coal bed gets a ton of air up through it, producing near as much heat as the flaming fire, basically producing relatively even heat throughout the entire 6 hours… at 55% efficiency that comes to 140,000 or…
25,000 BTU’s per hour.

The new-fangled EPA stove requires 12 hours to completely consume the full fuel load (nothing but ash)… at 80% efficiency that comes to 238,000 BTU’s or…
18,000 BTU’s per hour… a full 7000 BTU’s less per hour.
But the problem is, during that last four hours of the burn cycle, those coals piled under the ash were not heating near as strong as the coal bed in the smoke dragon. And even after the 12 hours there’s likely still some unconsumed coals… meaning the burn cycle is actually longer, further reducing the hourly BTU output.

Yeah, the new-fangled EPA stove extracts more heat from a pound of wood… but it takes twice as much time to do it. Fuel efficiency and heating efficiency are two separate things… the first is worthless if the second ain’t enough to do the job. Like I’ve said before, my 20-year-old 4x4 pickup gets 50 miles per gallon of gas… IF I DRIVE IT 10 MPH! Just driving across Iowa I’d spend more in hotel bills than gas could ever cost me… I’d be better off driving 60 MPH @ 12 miles per gallon and not spend anything on hotels. Everything is a trade-off when it comes to energy… if all else remains equal, a 20% increase in power requires more than a 20% increase in fuel consumption and emissions. Yet for some reason, many are willing to believe the EPA has somehow taken wood-fired heating appliances and reduced fuel consumption, reduced emissions and, at the same time, increased power output!

It must be magic… friggin’ magic I tell ya’! If Einstein were still alive he’d be rewriting his theory!
As I pointed out to you before the manual for the stove you used says it can maintain a secondary burn for only 1/3 of the cycle. Pretty clearly after that the output is reduced. If it is rated for a certain btu/hr no doubt that is with the secondary combustion going. After that the rate of energy output will be less - probably much less as you do not wish to adjust it, which will reduce efficiency and output still further - so it will take longer to extract the remaining portion of the btu's in the logs at a lower rate. Then you throw away some of those btu's as coals you don't want.

Your stove, at least modified as you have it, has too low a rate of energy output for what you want it to do. The efficiency rating of the stove tells you how much of the total energy in the wood it can extract, it says nothing about the rate of output. That is given by the btu/hr rating, which will be the peak rate under some circumstances. Both are pretty much advertising specs that are poorly regulated and may not even correlate. And your stove may not perform as intended now either.

Many of us, who have properly sized, properly installed "EPA" stoves are quite happy to have the higher efficiencies of this system as it means we don't use as much wood and don't create as much smoke. We're not shoveling out buckets of coals daily either. The reason you are is because the output during the later stages is too low so you want to reload before that is done. Your stove is too small, and the fact that it cannot burn the coals tells you it isn't working correctly. Perhaps you should hire a professional this time.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top