Restore the Old Oak
- Thread starter treeseer
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Sprig
Addicted to ArboristSite
That is a beautiful tree Treeseer, other than taking out the obviously dead branches how do you mean to 'restore' ? Just curious as to what you meant, like get more and thicker folliage?
kkottemann
ArboristSite Operative
remove all deadwood, prune interior sucker growth. Mabe take some weight off some of the lower limbs. Check for termites, if present treat with termitiside and give the old boy some fall feed.
We don't have Formosan termites here yet--do you?
ddhlakebound
Addicted to ArboristSite
I'd want to bring the long, dominant limb on the right under control, looks to be a good lateral about halfway down, which would bring that limb pretty much in line with the rest of the canopy.
The long arcing low limb on the left looks like it could use some lightening up also, but I don't really see a good place to bring that back too. I might just lighten it up, and leave most of the length on it.
It looks like 3 or 4 leaders are fighting for dominance from the point of the old topping cut. Depending upon how those crotches/attachments looked, I'd make a desision on wether to thin them out, or just make small pruning cuts to thin the tops of those leaders, to let more light and air through.
If possible, I'd want to trim that tree while it was dormant. Also, depending on how much material you decide to remove, it may be better for the tree to trim that dominant limb in 2 parts, a spaced a year or two apart.
And obviously, take out any dead wood, and rubbing limbs.
Some mulch would help too, when you're done.
Treeseer......I don't presume to be giving you any advice, I just wanted to throw my two cents in the ring in hopes of hearing your thoughts on my thoughts......
The long arcing low limb on the left looks like it could use some lightening up also, but I don't really see a good place to bring that back too. I might just lighten it up, and leave most of the length on it.
It looks like 3 or 4 leaders are fighting for dominance from the point of the old topping cut. Depending upon how those crotches/attachments looked, I'd make a desision on wether to thin them out, or just make small pruning cuts to thin the tops of those leaders, to let more light and air through.
If possible, I'd want to trim that tree while it was dormant. Also, depending on how much material you decide to remove, it may be better for the tree to trim that dominant limb in 2 parts, a spaced a year or two apart.
And obviously, take out any dead wood, and rubbing limbs.
Some mulch would help too, when you're done.
Treeseer......I don't presume to be giving you any advice, I just wanted to throw my two cents in the ring in hopes of hearing your thoughts on my thoughts......
Dadatwins
Addicted to ArboristSite
Just to hear Mr. Mass start screaming, I would probably start by taking out the low limbs. 
Just kidding.
Just kidding.
yes it is a rd oak, maybe q falcata. Restoring is defined as pruning to improve structure and form after damage. The topping was done for unclear reasons by the owner's father, deceased. Almost led to divorce, I hear. I suspect the ends were not done because the hacker could not easily reach them.
Dan, thanks, the pic was a natural to paint. The left lead will get reduced a bit as you say due to target, the road. The right, upward lead I would rather not reduce unless it has a crack, rot or other defect. Symmetricality is nice, but not a sufficient reason to take anything off the top. Yes it will be a multiyear project; all my new clients sign off on return inspections and care. This is such an old tree it will be slow to respond so it'll be on a ~3 year cycle.
yes indeed we will be looking to the roots. We will also be looking to the topped center cuts to assess decay and see if thinning/subordination is called for, to train some of those sprouts into leaders. I think it's important to open up that thick green bushy mmess in the middle and get some height going there. Good call ddh, but I do not understand waiting until "dormancy". Late summer is an excellent time for pruning hardwoods.
Restoring trees is not rocket science. It is HARDER in a way because we are dealing with living beings that respond to factors and forces beyond our knowledge.
i plan on spending ~5 hrs in and on it this sunday morning. Client will be groundie/cameraman. oo boy it'll be fun!
Dan, thanks, the pic was a natural to paint. The left lead will get reduced a bit as you say due to target, the road. The right, upward lead I would rather not reduce unless it has a crack, rot or other defect. Symmetricality is nice, but not a sufficient reason to take anything off the top. Yes it will be a multiyear project; all my new clients sign off on return inspections and care. This is such an old tree it will be slow to respond so it'll be on a ~3 year cycle.
yes indeed we will be looking to the roots. We will also be looking to the topped center cuts to assess decay and see if thinning/subordination is called for, to train some of those sprouts into leaders. I think it's important to open up that thick green bushy mmess in the middle and get some height going there. Good call ddh, but I do not understand waiting until "dormancy". Late summer is an excellent time for pruning hardwoods.
Restoring trees is not rocket science. It is HARDER in a way because we are dealing with living beings that respond to factors and forces beyond our knowledge.
i plan on spending ~5 hrs in and on it this sunday morning. Client will be groundie/cameraman. oo boy it'll be fun!
Overwatering oaks in late summer can lead to root rot cuz their stomata are closed, but yes we'll seek to avoid drought damage, mostly by mulching. Looks like I'll be recommending some soil added near the dripline and shallow plantings like liriope installed.
Adkpk
Addicted to ArboristSite
Can we get some elaboration on that dominant leader reduction. Why not cut where ddh suggested? Could Treeco's prune only be done with a bucket or is somebody actually going up on those limbs?
Thumbs up to you, treeseer for posting this thread. This should be a good one. Could we get a shot of the branch structure from underneath the tree before you go to work?opcorn:
Thumbs up to you, treeseer for posting this thread. This should be a good one. Could we get a shot of the branch structure from underneath the tree before you go to work?
opcorn:The question is, why cut healthy branches? This is an ancient tree that needs its leaves. in this tree's case, less pruning is more better for the tree.
?? Yes I will actually climb them as far as possible without breaking living twigs, and reach the rest with a pole tool.
Adkpk
Addicted to ArboristSite
Well, more power to you, buddy. Please get a shot of that. It would be very interesting to see how for one can go out on a limb. Not to inspire a show. Be safe.
Adkpk
Addicted to ArboristSite
First, thanks for the pic, TreeCo that's a good one. But I think treeseer has an interesting climb there. One I wouldn't be able to figure out at my level. (which is about 30 hrs in a tree, mostly sitting and wondering:monkey: ) I'm onto using redirects and limb walking. But not to go into boring detail, that one part of the trimming job should be very interesting. How does one ascend to such small branches without being able to tie in above it?
http://www.arboristsite.com/showpost.php?p=696150&postcount=62
I looked this up and was right in remembering who wrote it, treeseer. Now this is not a tip imo. I realize it isn't in treeseers book either. The way I see it that is an ascent to those group of branches. Not a limb walk. Not stirring the pot just watching and learning.
and wondering:monkey: ) I'm onto using redirects and limb walking. But not to go into boring detail, that one part of the trimming job should be very interesting. How does one ascend to such small branches without being able to tie in above it? http://www.arboristsite.com/showpost.php?p=696150&postcount=62
I looked this up and was right in remembering who wrote it, treeseer. Now this is not a tip imo. I realize it isn't in treeseers book either. The way I see it that is an ascent to those group of branches. Not a limb walk. Not stirring the pot just watching and learning.
kkottemann
ArboristSite Operative
yes we do have formosan termites here as well as any other type there are, including drywood termites. Natives are the problem in the more rural areas.
Dan nice pic but it looks like you couldashoulda been 10' higher.
kkot, do you have a species name of the native termites in MS that eat living wood? I never heard of one here.
Ad, redux, Yes I will actually climb them as far as possible without breaking living twigs, and **reach the rest with a pole tool**.
kkot, do you have a species name of the native termites in MS that eat living wood? I never heard of one here.
Ad, redux, Yes I will actually climb them as far as possible without breaking living twigs, and **reach the rest with a pole tool**.
ok dan you are absolved.:hmm3grin2orange:
Here's some background and a pic from the other side: " I found you on the Web, starting with a search on “tree doctor North Carolina” (MSN Live search) which brought me to “Hort on the Internet:Trees” which is actually maintained down at NC State (http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/hortinternet/trees.html) , from a topic “Hiring a Tree Expert” there to (http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/garden/az1003.pdf) which put me on to the ISA (http://www.isa-arbor.com/home.aspx), which has “Consumer Tree Care Website” with “Find a Tree Care Service” and a search on the state showed a list with you on it. There were only three with websites; you, Bartlett and one in Charlotte. I think you and Bartlett were the two who listed as Board Certified Masters. I sent e-mails to you and Bartlett (the other one tried to make me write an e-mail in one of those little forms like the gas company uses). I heard from you and the articles and the fact you were coming through from your teaching gig cinched it! I guess it took me about an hour to find stuff, read it and put together the e-mails.
I had been meaning to get the tree looked at just for good measure, given it’s age and so forth. And I knew I wanted someone who knew more about it than our local folks would. My Dad had the tree “trimmed” back in the 80’s and Mom almost didn’t forgive him! Basically, I’ve moved back into the house I grew up in, so I’ve been doing a bunch of work on it, and lately I have been noticing that some of the plants (including the oak tree) seem to be having problems beyond our droughtish conditions. Dead or no leaves on what otherwise looked like healthy branches. I was working around the house yesterday and heard a thump about 10:30, but this is an older house so noises rarely surprise me much. Later, I went out to get the mail and found a chunk of tree limb in the yard. Needed a chainsaw to cut up and move to the road, so I went in and started the search. I was just sending the e-mails when Steve, who takes care of the yard, got here and started cutting up the limb. By the time I came in from helping him I had your reply. Remarkable afternoon altogether.
Now one thing I did when I moved back in was get the gutters, eaves and downspouts replaced. And had some new drainage pipes put in to try to deal with a damp basement. The basement is now dry, but I wonder if some of what I’m seeing might be the result of my having re-routed the water! Ooops! Well, that can be fixed, and I’m sure there are other things to look into as well. I will wait to hear what you advise before doing anything else!"
Here's some background and a pic from the other side: " I found you on the Web, starting with a search on “tree doctor North Carolina” (MSN Live search) which brought me to “Hort on the Internet:Trees” which is actually maintained down at NC State (http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/hortinternet/trees.html) , from a topic “Hiring a Tree Expert” there to (http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/garden/az1003.pdf) which put me on to the ISA (http://www.isa-arbor.com/home.aspx), which has “Consumer Tree Care Website” with “Find a Tree Care Service” and a search on the state showed a list with you on it. There were only three with websites; you, Bartlett and one in Charlotte. I think you and Bartlett were the two who listed as Board Certified Masters. I sent e-mails to you and Bartlett (the other one tried to make me write an e-mail in one of those little forms like the gas company uses). I heard from you and the articles and the fact you were coming through from your teaching gig cinched it! I guess it took me about an hour to find stuff, read it and put together the e-mails.
I had been meaning to get the tree looked at just for good measure, given it’s age and so forth. And I knew I wanted someone who knew more about it than our local folks would. My Dad had the tree “trimmed” back in the 80’s and Mom almost didn’t forgive him! Basically, I’ve moved back into the house I grew up in, so I’ve been doing a bunch of work on it, and lately I have been noticing that some of the plants (including the oak tree) seem to be having problems beyond our droughtish conditions. Dead or no leaves on what otherwise looked like healthy branches. I was working around the house yesterday and heard a thump about 10:30, but this is an older house so noises rarely surprise me much. Later, I went out to get the mail and found a chunk of tree limb in the yard. Needed a chainsaw to cut up and move to the road, so I went in and started the search. I was just sending the e-mails when Steve, who takes care of the yard, got here and started cutting up the limb. By the time I came in from helping him I had your reply. Remarkable afternoon altogether.
Now one thing I did when I moved back in was get the gutters, eaves and downspouts replaced. And had some new drainage pipes put in to try to deal with a damp basement. The basement is now dry, but I wonder if some of what I’m seeing might be the result of my having re-routed the water! Ooops! Well, that can be fixed, and I’m sure there are other things to look into as well. I will wait to hear what you advise before doing anything else!"
ddhlakebound
Addicted to ArboristSite
Good thread going....
Treeseer, I agree that depriving the tree of the food made in that dominant limb is detrimental to the tree.
Thats part of the reason I would wait til dormant, to let that foilage produce as much food as possible this season, then store as many of those rescources as possible. The other part of waiting til dormant was because of the possibility of oak wilt. Perhaps I don't understand the window of infection correctly. I thought infection could occur at any point in the growing season. Is this not correct?
My thoughts on why to reduce the dominant limb were...
First, it's huge, probably 55' + from the trunk to the tips of that limb. To me it looks to be outgrowing its capacity to support itself. The now dominant limb would have never grown like that if the tree hadn't been hacked years ago. So I guess conformity to "natural" structure is/was part of it too.
With it left there, it will be more difficult to get one of the regrown tops to either dominate or codominate.
If it were to suffer a failure, it would probably cause more harm to the tree than a managed reduction of the overgrown dominant.
I see lots of downsides to taking it halfway down too.....
As it is, it has a very unique character, and without that limb dominating, it would look alot like many other oak trees.
The deprivation of rescources to the tree.
Forcing the tree to heal a large wound on the wrong side of the compartmentalization barrier, and the ongoing problems that could cause.
I can see leaving it and lightening it up if it looks healthy and strong all the way up. Not second guessing you, just wanted to hear your thoughts on these pros/cons.
Treeseer, I agree that depriving the tree of the food made in that dominant limb is detrimental to the tree.
Thats part of the reason I would wait til dormant, to let that foilage produce as much food as possible this season, then store as many of those rescources as possible. The other part of waiting til dormant was because of the possibility of oak wilt. Perhaps I don't understand the window of infection correctly. I thought infection could occur at any point in the growing season. Is this not correct?
My thoughts on why to reduce the dominant limb were...
First, it's huge, probably 55' + from the trunk to the tips of that limb. To me it looks to be outgrowing its capacity to support itself. The now dominant limb would have never grown like that if the tree hadn't been hacked years ago. So I guess conformity to "natural" structure is/was part of it too.
With it left there, it will be more difficult to get one of the regrown tops to either dominate or codominate.
If it were to suffer a failure, it would probably cause more harm to the tree than a managed reduction of the overgrown dominant.
I see lots of downsides to taking it halfway down too.....
As it is, it has a very unique character, and without that limb dominating, it would look alot like many other oak trees.
The deprivation of rescources to the tree.
Forcing the tree to heal a large wound on the wrong side of the compartmentalization barrier, and the ongoing problems that could cause.
I can see leaving it and lightening it up if it looks healthy and strong all the way up. Not second guessing you, just wanted to hear your thoughts on these pros/cons.
Hard to tell what is natural structure for a tree that was topped so badly. My guess is that the rest of the leads would be in line with or higher than that upright lead had they not been topped. It's not that big compared to others that age.
i did not even think of oak wilt because it is uncommon here; i've only id'd it once in nc. all the more reason to minimize live branch removal.
Yes the reasons for leaving it are much stronger; good review of pros/cons, which is smart to do. After all we cannot put them back after we cut em.:blush:
Here's some background--circuitous way of finding me but not unusual I guess: " I found you on the Web, starting with a search on “tree doctor North Carolina” (MSN Live search) which brought me to “Hort on the Internet:Trees” which is actually maintained down at NC State (http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/c...net/trees.html) , from a topic “Hiring a Tree Expert” there to (http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/garden/az1003.pdf) which put me on to the ISA (http://www.isa-arbor.com/home.aspx), which has “Consumer Tree Care Website” with “Find a Tree Care Service” and a search on the state showed a list with you on it. There were only three with websites; you, Bartlett and one in Charlotte. I think you and Bartlett were the two who listed as Board Certified Masters. I sent e-mails to you and Bartlett (the other one tried to make me write an e-mail in one of those little forms like the gas company uses). I heard from you and... I guess it took me about an hour to find stuff, read it and put together the e-mails."
I had been meaning to get the tree looked at just for good measure, given it’s age and so forth. And I knew I wanted someone who knew more about it than our local folks would. My Dad had the tree “trimmed” back in the 80’s and Mom almost didn’t forgive him! Basically, I’ve moved back into the house I grew up in, so I’ve been doing a bunch of work on it, and lately I have been noticing that some of the plants (including the oak tree) seem to be having problems beyond our droughtish conditions. Dead or no leaves on what otherwise looked like healthy branches. I was working around the house yesterday and heard a thump about 10:30, but this is an older house so noises rarely surprise me much. Later, I went out to get the mail and found a chunk of tree limb in the yard. Needed a chainsaw to cut up and move to the road, so I went in and started the search. I was just sending the e-mails when Steve, who takes care of the yard, got here and started cutting up the limb. By the time I came in from helping him I had your reply. Remarkable afternoon altogether....I will wait to hear what you advise before doing anything else!"
Last edited:
Bermie
Addicted to ArboristSite
Looks like an interesting project!
I too was a bit surprised to hear that you would do the work in late summer, I was of the impression that was when deciduous trees are 'thinking about' and starting to move energy reserves back into the buds and branches for storage through the winter. (caveat, we don't have too many winter deciduous tree here and a VERY mild winter, I get away with stuff you all wouldn't!))
Given it's age and previous bad pruning history, less is more, definitely a longer term project and sounds like you are onto the right thing with your 3year inspection schedule.
Wot you 'tink?
I too was a bit surprised to hear that you would do the work in late summer, I was of the impression that was when deciduous trees are 'thinking about' and starting to move energy reserves back into the buds and branches for storage through the winter. (caveat, we don't have too many winter deciduous tree here and a VERY mild winter, I get away with stuff you all wouldn't!))
Given it's age and previous bad pruning history, less is more, definitely a longer term project and sounds like you are onto the right thing with your 3year inspection schedule.
Wot you 'tink?
Adkpk
Addicted to ArboristSite
So'd you do it?
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