Air spading

[FBerkel]

To all you root crown excavators and radial trenchers: 1)Do you base your pricing on regular climber rates? 2) Aren't you generating huge volumes of loose soil, and how do you get it off the property? Doesn't this add a huge increase to the price, to the point where many people don't want to go through with it?

I'm thinking it's a worthwhile service, but wondering about these aspects. I appreciate any input.

--Thanks.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

If you have a tree that is planted very deeply then you may have some spoil dirt left over, the bigger problem is the aesthetics of the pit that can be left in this situation. i have sugested coarse bark mulch an a return in several years for examination.

I have found that the spoil can easily be raked into the turf for a topdress.

in radial trenching with total soil replacement you can get large volumes of soil that have to be hauled. A trench 2x1.5x30 yields 30 yards of soil, figure 30% loss due to drift you still have 20 yards. Even todressing a yard, there is no way you can get rid of all of it on a property.

But i have never been able to sell one like that, the cost. What would 120 yards of sandy-loam cost delivered in your area. Then think of the MH to move it all. and that is with just 4, 30 foot trenches.

I have amended the spoil dirt with sandy loam by mixing it in by the wheel barrel load, charging T&M. go by the 30% loss estimate, and fudge a little on the order.

Most of the few i have done are small trees planted too deep.

I have also moved some volenteers to more appropriate spots with my air-knife.

Another thing I would like to try is undermining surface roots to bury them deeper.

 

[Gopher]

I would believe that the cost would be prohibitive if one had to remove upwards of 20 yards of spoil from the site.

What is done on a larger tree, where the canopy and root zone covers a circle 100 feet across?

What would be the estimated cost (rough) to do either soil replacement or radial trenching?

If the amount of soil to be removed gets to be too much to handle (volume), would we not be better off recommending a tre growth regulator and additional soil ammendments for increased root enhancement this way? Just trying to look at the alternatives if cost (even if it is the best method) forces an alternative solution.

Gopher

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

When we say total replacement it is not the enite dripline volume, this would destabilize the tree.

But then as Matt and I found going through the math on a three tree stand he was looking at the volumes become prohibative unless you have a constrution site and a wealthy client.

The only meathod for RT I have found saleable trenching and amending the native soil for replacement. This is in it's self is a hard sell due to the impact on the landscape, where we fall back on vert mulching as the last best thing to do, then backfilling with a loamy, coarse sand. This I've recomended doing every few years.

One thisng I have thought of is doing deep VM to try to wick up deep sub soil moisture around plants that scoarch easily.

 

[Greg]

JPS, tell me more about your air knife and spade, are they the same tool with different sized heads?
-Do you wear a respirator and googles?
-Do you build somthing to contain the soil on a collar exam so it does not blow all over the place?
-How big of a compressor is required --how small of a compressor can you get away with?
-Do you use the spade in conjunction with a shop vac? Spade breaks it up, vac sucks it up and contains it for easy replacement?

I'm thinking in terms of correcting SGR's. I read your article posted a few weeks ago. Good stuff.

Greg

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Originally posted by Greg
JPS, tell me more about your air knife and spade, are they the same tool with different sized heads?

The knife rep told me that they are esencialy the same tool, they buy the tip from the spade people.

Course the spade people say theres is better.

I've used both and a home made tool, the comercial products seem to work the same, the home made at around mayb 75%.

All the high performance is in the tips engineering.

-Do you wear a respirator and googles?

Goggles, muffs, dustmaks and one of those hunting masks that will come tight around the goggles. The dirt gets everywhere

-Do you build somthing to contain the soil on a collar exam so it does not blow all over the place?

Sometimes you can get it to go on a tarp. My feelings ar that the first order roots and flair should be above soil; these are what will eventualy form the palisade. I've seen sheets of plywood and tarps streched on conduit frames to control soil movement.

No mater what you do, the estimate of 30% loss due to drift seems to be a consensus. +/- dending on partical size.

-How big of a compressor is required --how small of a compressor can you get away with?

My knife is rated for a 185cfm, I think I used a 125cfm with a Spade.

-Do you use the spade in conjunction with a shop vac? Spade breaks it up, vac sucks it up and contains it for easy replacement?

In real deep excavation a heavy duty shop vac would be usefull, most time the tools will blow the stuf out, once turf roots are out of the way.

I use the tool to cut squares of sod and pull them out by hand.

Replacement is with a shovel and garden rake, then use the too to push around any matted piles.

I'm thinking in terms of correcting SGR's. I read your article posted a few weeks ago. Good stuff.

Thanks.

Colar work is the easiest thing to do, unless it is over a half foot down. Then the question becomes what will be done, plant health or landscape aesthetics.


BTW, Ive looked into bigger vacs, like RockVac, but at 12k per unit I could not justify the cost.

 

[treeman82]

The job JPS is referring to, I had looked into selling the spoil and that made quite a few additional dollars. Just something to think about. However I believe the numbers we were coming up with were around 250 yards or so. That was going at 30' long, 18" deep, with full replacement for 50% of the drip zone.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

That was 250 per trench or pie shaped section of the drip zone?

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Today i did my first air excavation where soil moisture was real high. we have been having drizzle for the last several day with a "storm total" of around 2.5 in.

Messy and twice as hard to move the soil, this tree had dense turf under it too and, gettin it out sucked.

This is the first machine I've used with the OSHA required interlocks on the air lines. The kick in as soon as you pull the trigger half the time, or more. need to wait for pressure to build up again.

If they are on a compressor you rent, take them off right away, you end up wasting a lot of time with them.

 

[murphy4trees]

Math police checking in tree brothers...

A cubic yard= 1 yd. x 1 yd. x 1yd.= 3 ft. x 3 ft. x 3ft= 27 cubics feet

So a trench 30'x 2' x1.5' = 90 cubic feet = approx. 3 cubic yards.

Excavators normally add 20% to the volume as the material fluffs when loaded.
I only ever knew one guy around here that sold radial trenching.. he would rent a mini excavator for the day. He sold his business a couple years ago... Last I spoke to him he said he had used the air spade, but didn't give any details...
I'd like to pick someones brains who has been doing it for a while..
I guess a big part of it is in the sales pitch... helps to have a bunch of credentials.. and a good salesman should be able to sell it regardless.. the question is HOW!!!
God Bless All,
Daniel

 

[FBerkel]

I've managed to sell a few clients on the idea, (properties with recent construction related soil compaction, didn't take too much to convince them that this was causing their trees to look stressed). but I'm not sure I'm ready to follow through, given the logistics of getting all that soil off site.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

That sounds better Dan, I thought I was amiss somewhere.

So I just did some crown excvations this morning. Afore mentioned drizzle we have been having was not enough to penetrate decent canopy enough to make the soil real sticky. Stuff was blowijng perfect.

Fred, doing the soil amendments instread of total replacement greatly reduces the amount of soil to move, if there is no soil crowning in the plant in question you will have a net loss of native soil due to drift.

Carry a rake and shovel and you can move the stuff around as a top dress. You will want to mound the soil up in the trenched areas anyway to accound for settling.

In some areas you can just use the tool to fracture the soil and move it around with the garden rake.

 

[FBerkel]

Thanks for the tips, JP. Your usual fee is in the mail.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I was going to suggest you have me bring the tool out with me, but at that cost you might as well buy one and see how it works

BTW I was looking the AirKnife website and if one does a lot of trenching or high volume work, the bigger tools would probably work better, even at $2100. Bigger too, bigger compressor, expidiet the job. The rep just said that they are too big for regular collar inspections done in consulting.

 

[treeman82]

John, I think that the 250 yards came from all 3 trees put together.

I had done the math with Nick and this is the formula we used:

60 / 2 = 30 (radius of 60' diameter crown)

3.14 x 30 x 30 = 2826 (area under crown in sq. ft.)

2826 x 1.5 = 4239 (cubic feet of soil underneath crown 1.5 ft in depth)

4239 / 2 = 2119.5 (50 percent of soil under crown in cu ft)

2119.5 x 3 = 6358.5 (soil under 3 trees in cu ft)

6358.5 / 27 = 235.5 (divided by 27 cubic feet to a yard)

235.5 x 2 = 471 (material trucked out + material trucked in in cubic yards)

 

[Nickrosis]

Great job, Matt. That makes a lot more sense than our IM's that night!

Radial trenching seems like the best thing for the tree, but it looks difficult to implement. What about Watson's projects? What did he do to move the soil and what kind of costs did he incur?

Nickrosis

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

They used a backhoe 15 years ago.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

SOIL DISPOSAL

It sure is handy why people have a big yard that could use a gently sloping mound added to give character.

Not all the time, but often, we have piled extra soil in an area. Then added some ammendment to the top and rototilled and raked it.

Sometimes we can add plants and mulch and still give a good overall bid.

Several times we have been able to do a digging project & provide a landscape improvement at the same or lower cost than someone bidding for digging and soil removal only.

People will jump for joy to get some new landscaping and digging work for the same price.

That's our number 1 goal on every bid that is opened to several other companies - what can we find on the property that will alter our bid so that is is a good deal, and makes it incomparible to the work description provided by the other contractors.

Did it with tree and stump removal the other week. We only bid to grind one (BIG!), But dig out the small ones - only 10 minutes each.

The positive side to the digging was no mess for the assistant manufactured home park manager to deal with in the extra 2 locations - chips getting scattered and compost heaps to deal with.

Every other company bid to grind all 3 stumps and - as traditional in Portland, Oregon area - leave the mess as lays; maybe fill the hole.

So, job was ours - boo - yah - touch - down !!

Ooohh Raaahhh !

Yippee Chayeah !

Mario Vaden
Landscape Designer / Arborist

M.D. Vaden Trees & Landscapes
Beaverton, Oregon

www.mdvaden.com:blob3:

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Ooohh Raaahhh !

Dang Jarheads!

If your set up to dig, more power too ya, many people dont want to leave their niche. I've bid some stump jobs to move the grindings around as mulch, prefer not to though. But then I don't do that any more anyways.

Just don't sell yourself short.

I've heard that a certain red trucked company in this area will low bid a removal if it is in a landscape project and make it up in the other parts of the job. Sounds like a good buisness to me.