Almost ready for my OWB install and have a few ??

[Mikeweems]

Where can I get the 1/4" foil faced fiberglass insulation to wrap my pex tubing? Is foil faced bubble wrap insulation a viable substitute?
My plan is to put foam pipe insulation on both pex lines. Then wrap them both together with the enough 1/4" foil/glass insulation to fill 6" corrugated pipe.
The pex run will only be 75'.

What size circulating pump should I use? I can get a Grundfos UPS15-58FC where i live for a decent price.
Right now I will only be supplying a 16x18 heat exchanger and a sidearm on my water heater.

I also would like to hear ideas on how to wire up the fan on my janitrol furnace so it will work with the owb and switch back to gas if the fire goes out. A diagram would be sweet if anyone has one.

The boiler has a manual draft now. I have a Ranco ETC, blower, and solenoid to make it forced combustion. The plan is to hook the solenoid to a butterfly similar to one on a carburetor. It will open and the blower will start when the ETC calls for heat.
This is a somewhat low budget install using a free indoor wood boiler that is going to be outdoors.
Any help will be greatly appreciated,

Mike

 

[i'mstihlaguy]

I used Solar Guard insulation to wrap my underground lines. It is a thin layer of fiberglass sandwiched between two sheets of foil. I purchased it from Guardian Building Products in Ohio. Phone number is 1-800-231-6200. It was $59.80 for a 1/4'' x 48'' x 50' roll plus tax and $25 shipping came to $90.74. I ended up using two rolls for my 75' run but could have used more if I hadn't used R13 fiberglass for the final wrap.

Here's the product brochure:
http://www.silvercote.com/PDF/Solarguard_eng.pdf

I have a side arm for the water heater and a water to air HX for my forced air system for the house. I have about a 2 to 3 degree temperature drop between supply and return lines when the air handler is not running. I cut power to the water heater and have plenty of hot water. That tells me I have very little loss in the lines.

I put sand around the corrugated pipe but it ended up costing me almost as much as the sch 40 would have. If I had it to do over again, I would have used sch 40 PVC instead of corrugated for peace of mind but only because the cost was closer than I expected. It was the cost of the sand that got me.

There is a link to my install showing how I insulated the lines at the bottom of my posting.

 

[Mikeweems]

Thanks for the info.
The solar guard is exactly what I'm looking for.
I priced 6" SDR-35 pipe and changed my mind on using it. The 6" corrugated pipe was just under $1 a foot for 100 ft. I'm still shopping for a better price.

The install will be in sand so no worries about rocks and such.

I have checked out your installation and it looks good.

mike

 

[mtfallsmikey]

$1/ft. not a bad price for 6" SDR...was higher last winter when I did mine...I did my lines in SDR, philosophy was to allow ground moisture to pass thru...Sch. 40 won't drain the consensation from the lines that will form sooner or later.

 

[i'mstihlaguy]

$1/ft. not a bad price for 6" SDR...was higher last winter when I did mine...I did my lines in SDR, philosophy was to allow ground moisture to pass thru...Sch. 40 won't drain the consensation from the lines that will form sooner or later.

I think he is saying the corrugated is just under $1 a foot. That's what I paid anyway.

Okay, dumb question. What do you mean "to allow ground moisture to pass through"? Don't you want to keep ground moisture out? And how will green pipe let the condensation pass? I hope there is not alot of moisture inside to condense. I probably just don't understand what you mean.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Ok...let me 'splain.

My theory is, and is based on experience....unless you use pre-manufactured, pre-insulated lines like CentralPex, etc.,and/or fill a homemade set full of foam, condensation will form inside of the (solid)pipe from the cooler ground temperatures, and eventually fill the inside of the pipe with water, killing the R-value of the insulation...I used 1/2" Armaflex insulation on 1"PEX, inside of 6" SDR perforated with gravel over/under the pipe for drainage, buried 36" deep. So far, no ground thawing noticed, only 2 deg. temp. drop on my primary loops but.....each install is different.

 

[atlarge54]

A 3 degree temp drop @7gpm is about 250,000 BTU/day heat loss. Using 7000btu/lb for wood and 100% efficiency you're using 36lb of wood a day before you start to heat the structure. The last place to skimp on an install is the lineset. If your socks are wet your feet are cold. A bad underground lineset can eat you alive.

 

[John D]

A 3 degree temp drop @7gpm is about 250,000 BTU/day heat loss. Using 7000btu/lb for wood and 100% efficiency you're using 36lb of wood a day before you start to heat the structure. The last place to skimp on an install is the lineset. If your socks are wet your feet are cold. A bad underground lineset can eat you alive.

I agree,I used the solarguard wrapped around the pex,and would not do it again if I could do it over.just get the thermoplex,logstor,and be done with it. The setup you are making will eventually fill with water,whether it be from the a leak in the drain pipe,and high ground water after heavy rain,or condensation.If you insist on using it,do not use the 6" drain pipe,use 6" sch 40 PVC,at least it will be watertight,and easier to slide in new pines,insulation after the fact if needed.You will need 8 lengths of sch 40+ 45's,they are $24.00 /10 ft here.The 6" drainpipe is $80 /100ft roll.You will not save any money by going cheap here.By the time you add it up,and your time,you will be better off with the thermoplex. I wish I could do it over with digging it all up.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Nice scientific explaination, and if Mars and Mercury are in alignment, that statement would be good.....real world, not. I'm not pumping 7 gpm.....more like 6. And that depends on the size of the pipe, head, etc. BTU content of wood depends on variety, moisture content, efficiency of burn, etc. On any OWB, sans gasifiers, I defy anyone to prove you are getting combustion efficiencies of higher than 30%, even with gasifiers, they may do 50%...look on ********** for research on that. Yes, skimping on underground linesets is dumb, but at $13-$18/ft. for manufctured insulated sets I as well as others are more than willing to experiment with alternatives.

 

[atlarge54]

Nice scientific explaination, and if Mars and Mercury are in alignment, that statement would be good.....real world, not. I'm not pumping 7 gpm.....more like 6. And that depends on the size of the pipe, head, etc. BTU content of wood depends on variety, moisture content, efficiency of burn, etc. On any OWB, sans gasifiers, I defy anyone to prove you are getting combustion efficiencies of higher than 30%, even with gasifiers, they may do 50%...look on ********** for research on that. Yes, skimping on underground linesets is dumb, but at $13-$18/ft. for manufctured insulated sets I as well as others are more than willing to experiment with alternatives.

Ok lets assume 33% efficient and make the waste 750,00 BTU a day. A bad underground lineset is something you'll always regret.

 

[John D]

Ok lets assume 33% efficient and make the waste 750,00 BTU a day. A bad underground lineset is something you'll always regret.

Exactly,and it isnt easy to get to it after the fact,and its buried.Remember drainage pipe wasnt meant to keep water out,it was meant as a cheap means to pipe water under no pressure and with gravity and pitch as the only means of flow.If it developed a small leak,it was no big deal.We are using it to keep ground water out,it wasn't built to do that with a 100% leak free seal,so is risky,it often develops a small leak,given how its constructed cheaply,it really isnt worth the risk of getting your insulation,and pipes wet.Ive spoke to a few guys now who have installed the drain pipe,and it leaked,as ground water got in over 2-3 years time,and wet the insulation.Temp drops in excess of 15-20 degrees per 100 ft are common with wet insualtion actually becoming a very good conductor.

 

[i'mstihlaguy]

Keep in mind that my stated temperature drop of 2 to 3 degrees is for a pump running 24/7 to operate a side arm on a HW heater in the basement and push the water through another 80 feet of pex inside my house. I went ahead and ran the loop upstairs for a future BPE on the 2nd floor HW heater and then back down to the basement for the currently operating HX in the plenum. When its above 35 degrees outside the air handler doesn't have to work much cause I am still getting some heat off of the HX through the duct work. I think that accounts for almost all of my loss between supply and return when the air handler is not running. I did install gauges at the OWB and just inside my basement on the supply side. Gauges were calibrated together and I can't read any difference.

I didn't save as much as I though after adding the cost of the sand but I think my lines are insulated way better than the prefab stuff the dealer was selling at $7.50/ft. I will monitor loss from OWB to house and if it ever gets out of reason then I will dig it up. After all, I will be richer in the future when the stimulus plan kicks in :jester:.

 

[November Wolf]

After all, I will be richer in the future when the stimulus plan kicks in :jester:.

That $13 extra a week can buy you 1 foot of Logstor pipe.

Looks like Obama was keeping us OWB owners in mind.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Only takes 100 weeks @ $13/wk per 100'...badabing!

 

[mtfallsmikey]

I think I'm doing just as well as anyone with super-insulated pipe myself...a 2 deg. drop over a 200'piping run ain't bad...I've seen worse on a lot of oil/gas fired HWBB systems.....and primary/secondary piping methods make it even better, and more efficient.

 

[Laird]

Ok...let me 'splain.

My theory is, and is based on experience....unless you use pre-manufactured, pre-insulated lines like CentralPex, etc.,and/or fill a homemade set full of foam, condensation will form inside of the (solid)pipe from the cooler ground temperatures, and eventually fill the inside of the pipe with water, killing the R-value of the insulation...I used 1/2" Armaflex insulation on 1"PEX, inside of 6" SDR perforated with gravel over/under the pipe for drainage, buried 36" deep. So far, no ground thawing noticed, only 2 deg. temp. drop on my primary loops but.....each install is different.

If I am following you correctly, then it it would make sense for me to not close off or foam fill the underground piping where it enters my heated garage. Leaving it unplugged would allow water vapor to escape the line into the garage.

 

[i'mstihlaguy]

Good question but I sure don't know the answer. It seems like if you closed it up tight then there would be no way for moist air to get in there to perpetuate the condensation in the first place. I wrapped my outermost layer of insulation with plastic film overlapping on every pass. If I did get condensation on the inside wall of the pipe then the plastic film would keep it off the insulation. You would pretty much have to have standing water in there to get through it cause its wrapped really tight. My run slopes toward the house the whole way and I didn't seal it off where it passes through the basement wall. I guess if there's that much condensation then I will see water running down my 10" poured wall some day. Hopefully not but I know water can do some really strange things.

 

[Mikeweems]

The solid 6" SDR-35 pipe is $38.10+ tax for 10ft x 8 pcs. Then I need 2-6" 45* fittings @ $??(guess maybe $15 ea.).
With the 1" pex I already have and the SDR-35 it's over $6 a foot and I haven't even purchased insulation yet.
4 rolls of 1/4"x48"x50' solar guard @ 90.74 a roll will put me at $11 a foot.
If I add the foam pipe insulation and some R-13 to fill the 6" pipe then wrap in plastic the cost will be in the $13-$15 range.

Is it worth the effort?

 

[John D]

The solid 6" SDR-35 pipe is $38.10+ tax for 10ft x 8 pcs. Then I need 2-6" 45* fittings @ $??(guess maybe $15 ea.).
With the 1" pex I already have and the SDR-35 it's over $6 a foot and I haven't even purchased insulation yet.
4 rolls of 1/4"x48"x50' solar guard @ 90.74 a roll will put me at $11 a foot.
If I add the foam pipe insulation and some R-13 to fill the 6" pipe then wrap in plastic the cost will be in the $13-$15 range.

Is it worth the effort?

Exactly,it is not worth the effort at all.To do the job right,using a watertight conduit that will stay dry and trouble free for years,the cost isnt worth the effort,just find the best deal you can on the logstor/thermoplex and be done with it.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

That's a good question, Laird...I sealed mine off with spray foam, more for rodent/insect protection than anything else....my finished cost for my line was around $6/ft...like I said, nuthin fancy, didn't know how it was going to work, but so far, so good....has anyone looked into Uponor Ecoflex insulated lines?...fairly new on the market, main distributor would be Ferguson Enterprises.......

www.uponor.com