Aviation gas

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OK enough!!!! WOW This is starting dizzying. :dizzy: It's going to take me a week to sort through all of this and chase down all these links. In ten words or less what would you pick as the best performing fuel for 2 strokes for let's say low end torque and for high RPM. :)
 
bwalker said:
Technicaly it is toluene, but AKA methyl benzene, and tolulene. Toluol is a mix of toluene and xylene.
Does this satisfy the spelling nazis? FWIW its sold as tolulene in the painmt stotre near my house.


Not trying to be a spelling Nazi, remember these are chemicals we are dealing with here, and just because something sounds similar doesn't mean it is the same, or even close enough to give the same reaction. Using the wrong chemical is a real good way to get dead, so I just want to be real clear on toluene and tolulene

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toluene

I found this regarding toluene, but stil i find no definitive explaination of what tolulene is and how it differs.
 
Minutes of a discussion.&nbsp; The person speaking probably said the word that way and the recorder dutifully copied it down, <s>now</s> not knowing better.&nbsp; Can you find a transcription of the President saying "nukeular"?

<tt>:</tt>)
 
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The blends you cited show a significant amount of xylene, which is no less an aromatic than toluene. Remember that xylene is a crummier aromatic than toluene; every performance characteristic you might dislike about toluene is worse for xylene, so the blends you see with predominantly xylene as aromatic stock are worse off for containing it. Xylene has a lower octane rating, lower volatility than toluene, which as we both mentioned is already lower than the mean for gasoline, is a bit harder to burn thereby contributing more to unburned HC's and has slightly lower energy density. It is supposedly worse on various rubbers, too.

Aromatics are a bit worse for contributing unburned HC, CO and NOx emissions to the air compared with alkanes (parrafinics), but that is not what this discussion was about, at least not from my understanding. I thought this discussion was about a cheap and available way to get a fuel with boosted octane over standard pump gas. We don't want to blow anything up, or melt or crack any rubber, or have to re-tune everything to run this wonder gas, either. Toluene/pump gas blend fits the bill. If you run it, your engine will not blow up, seize, melt or even need new jets in the carbeurator.

Aromatics were not removed from unleaded fuels to improve performance, but rather to reduce emissions. The fact that modern fuel blends contain less aromatics means that adding them back in will have a greater octane boosting effect than it would have if you tried this a few years ago when the fuel was still 40% aromatic. The EPA goal is 20%, BTW.

I am not surprised that what the green wackos said about MMT turns out to be BS. They seem to run their political machine on a blend of about 90% BS, 10% everything else. (Check out these facts on DDT, perhaps the safest and most effective pesticide ever banned: http://www.junkscience.com/ddtfaq.htm) MMT increases unburned HC too, BTW. The Bruce Hamilton document explains a lot of this. You can find a copy here: http://www.type2.com/~keen/west/nodark/other/gas2

Both unburned HC's and Nox emissions(especially the latter) are really only environmental problems for ONE geographic area: the valleys of southern California: http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/6576780.htm?1c
Yet the special needs of this state
somehow get pantographed onto the rest of us. Why should we follow that same practice when thinking of blending our own go juice? But wait, it gets worse. Many different controlled studies done over recent years have consistently proved than the vast majority of CO, NOx and HC comes form a tiny minority of cars, namely older cars in disrepair (one study showed that a typical 'out of tune' carbeurated V8 car will makes as much emissions as 100 modern EFI cars!). So the fuel people (in harmonious co-operation with gov't authorities) are again pantographing a solution to this unfortunate situation onto the entire national motor fleet!

And we really are breathing cleaner air now than 10-20 years ago:

"Air quality in the U.S. generally, and in New Jersey specifically, has improved dramatically in recent years thanks to falling car and truck emissions, economic and technological change, and new federal controls on power plants and industrial boilers. EPA statistics regarding the six principal sources of air pollution in 1998* show:

Nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions are lower than they were 25 years ago, despite significant
increases in population and industrial activity.

Carbon monoxide (CO) emissions are roughly 20 percent lower than 1970 levels.

Sulfur dioxide (SO2) emissions are down roughly 37 percent from 1970 levels, and are lower
today than at any time since the Great Depression.

* EPA, National Air Pollutant Trends, 1900-1998, Executive Summary."

On the subject of oxygenates being partially burned HC's:
(from the above cited Bruce Hamilton document)

"4.5 What are oxygenates?

Oxygenates are just pre-used hydrocarbons. They contain oxygen, which
can not provide energy, but their structure provides a reasonable
anti-knock value, thus they are good substitutes for aromatics, and they
may also reduce the smog-forming tendencies of the exhaust gases [11]."

And a little further down the page, a great synopsis of why aromatics are being removed from fuels, why oxygenates are being added (and why you should not worry about aromatics in your go-juice):

"Oxygenates that are added to gasoline function in two ways. Firstly they
have high blending octane, and so can replace high octane aromatics in the
fuel. These aromatics are responsible for disproportionate amounts of CO
and HC exhaust emissions. This is called the "aromatic substitution
effect". Oxygenates also cause engines without sophisticated engine
management systems to move to the lean side of stoichiometry, thus reducing
emissions of CO ( 2% oxygen can reduce CO by 16% ) and HC ( 2% oxygen can
reduce HC by 10%). However, on vehicles with engine management systems, the
fuel volume will be increased to bring the stoichiometry back to the
preferred optimum setting. Oxygen in the fuel can not contribute energy,
consequently the fuel has less energy content. For the same efficiency and
power output, more fuel has to be burnt, and the slight improvements in
efficiency that oxygenates provide on some engines usually do not
completely compensate for the oxygen [12]."

This last paragraph is in agreement with your last paragraph WRT older cars running cleaner (leaner) with oxygenates and EFI compensating for them. Note that this is not a performance improvement, or even a delay in the onset of detonation compared to a fuel blended with more volatiles. It is simply a way to remove volatile content without destroying the engine with detonation, albeit at a lower engine output. I guess this keeps those older sleds chugging along without belching out too much black smoke :D

Again, notice the reason that the aromatics are being removed. No mention of any performance problems. In fact, I could not find any mention of any performance/power output problems with aromatics in gasoline anywhere. OK, I guess in a perfect world of fuel, we could all run gas with <20% aromatics and the balance highly refined parrafinics and some TEL kicker. Such a fuel would have both a high octane rating AND higher energy density than either aromatics or oxygenates. But that fuel does not exist right now for less than $5-6 a gallon. You can do the toluene thing for about $3.

The bottom line is if we are looking for good, cheap, safe, high octane gas, toluene/pump gas blends fit the bill. On this point you will never prove me wrong!

Jimbo
 
jimbo1490 said:
[in a quoted portion] "However, on vehicles with engine management systems, the fuel volume will be increased to bring the stoichiometry back to the preferred optimum setting."
Which explains why, in every instance of people I know who must suffer oxygenated fuels complain of the piss-poor mileage they return with use in their current-generation vehicles.

The way my mileage has dropped recently leads me to believe the blends are here by me now too.

Glen
 
Jimbo:
I appreciate your efforts in distilling much of the tech information into readable, succinct, lay language. Your desire to educate and inform without condescension or pretense is refreshing.
 
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JImbo, The fuels I posted have no more than 20% xylene. Much better than 30-40% as found in some fuels.
WRT Oxy fuels. I disagree with your comments about them hurting performance. Rather I have found that MTBE doped fuels in particular boost power by a substanial margin. Remember with any motor the problem is not getting enough fuel into the motor, but getting enough oxygen. The more oxygen you can cram in the better.
"The bottom line is if we are looking for good, cheap, safe, high octane gas, toluene/pump gas blends fit the bill. On this point you will never prove me wrong!"
With regards to the above statement. Where do you think people are going to get quality toluene at to blend with pump gas? Not from the paint store.

Glens, In regards to the lower mileage you have noticed. Where are you located? If memory serves me you are some where in Wis or Il. If you are anywhere near SE Wis,N Illinois, and Northern IN you have oxygenated fuel. If you can find a fuel that uses mtbe as a oxygenate as it performs better. Many timnes ethanol oxygenated fuels have issues with water and staying in suspension. In other words you may get one tank that 10% ethanol and a nother thats 50% which further kills mileage.
 
I get mine from a local chemical supplier. It's much cheaper than buying at the paint store or home center and the quality is better. I pay about $30 for a 5 gallon pail and about $200 for a drum. I primarily use toluene to clean uncured sealant from aircraft windows, so I always have some in stock for my business.The local HD wants like $12 for a gallon, and it smells like friggin polyester resin. Must be low grade junk.

Jimbo
 
Weimdog, I think it might be scatalogical agitation, but since that has gone out of style here on AS, I must be mistaken.
 
Ben ,Mtbe may not be available in Indiana anymore.There were issues of groundwater contamination within the last several years.
One problem was a Roselawn school that had high levels of Mtbe in the drinking water.Maybe Glen is getting to test that 85/15 ethanol
blend.
 
"The local HD wants like $12 for a gallon, and it smells like friggin polyester resin. Must be low grade junk."
That doesnt stop the ham fists from using it. BTW be carful with how you dispose of Toluene. One of my formare employers got hit with a $60k cleanup bill from toluol(toluene/xylene mix) spills.

"Ben ,Mtbe may not be available in Indiana anymore.There were issues of groundwater contamination within the last several years."
MTBE is being phased out nation wide I believe thanks to the corn lobby. MTBE problem in regards to aquafer polution is the fact that it is highly mobile and has a very strone taste/smell. Wouldnt it be smarter to fix the leaks rather than switch to a oxygenate that cant be tasted?
 
So it sounds like the only benifit for running av gas over good premium gas is a slight improvement on weight because av gas is a little lighter per gallon?
:bang:
 
Man I don't know whether to stick my finger in the fan blades here or not!

What the heck, you only live once......

first off, I'm a commercially rated pilot (single and multi) and also a certified flight instructor (18 years now I think), as well as being a certified master auto mechanic, and also worked at a Stihl dealership, though I'm not certified by them in any way. Oh yeah, also have co authored 2 books on automotive electronics and electrical systems. I don't say that to say my opinions are worth any more than someone elses, but that I have had a rather morbid relationship with both aviation and chainsaws over the past few decades. That and a buck can get me a cup of coffee, except at starbucks.....

I see a few things not discussed yet, the main one being the purpose of an octane rating. In a cylinder we want the fuel to burn and not detonate. Detonation occurs when excessive heat and pressure in the combustion chamber cause the air/fuel mixture to autoignite. This produces multiple flame fronts within the combustion chamber instead of a single flame kernel that expands outward from the spark plug as designed. The Octane rating simply measures the resistance to detonation. In general, a lower octane fuel will have more energy than a higher octane fuel. You would not notice it in a saw but a car, everything else being equal, will get better mileage on 90 octance fuel than on 120 octane fuel.

Operating environments have nothing to do with it really, unless you either have poor design or physical blockage that allow cylinder head temp to go above design specs. If you want to get technical, the temperature drops by 4.5F every 1000 feet, so even at 10,000 feet it is only 45 degrees cooler than on the ground. (a kinda cool formula to use here, is when they give the dewpoint temperature during the weather broadcast, take the current temp, subtract the dewpoint, divide it by 4.5 and that gives you the height of the cloud bottoms outside in thousands of feet) .

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that IMHO 100LL is one of the better fuels for 2 stroke engines, use it if you can get it. If you show up at an airport with a 5 gallon can and they don't want to sell it to you, go to the next airport because they are full of it. The ONLY objection someone can give is that since there has been no road tax applied to it, you cannot use it in a vehicle driven on the street. If you tell them it is for off road use only they cannot argue with you. As has been pointed out, a place to get it for free is from the line trucks that fuel planes, after they are done gassing up a plane they stick the fuel nozzle in a funnel, and eventually the sump fills up and they have to dispose of it. Be aware there will be water in this fuel! Let it sit in a can for a day at least, a few days is better, and either carefully decant the fuel or siphon it down to the last 6" or so. I'm a cheap bastard so I'll pour the last into glass 1 gallon jugs and always let it settle for a day at least, then you can see the water and you can carefully pour off the gas on top.

Now, the other thing to do is see if you can get the jet fuel, which is basically kerosene. The best use I have found is that it is the best fuel for salamander heaters, burns much cleaner than kero or diesel.

Anyway, my points again:

1) 100LL is good for saws
2) Will it give them "more power"? maybe, maybe not. Most likely not unless there were ignition issues with that individual saw.
3) Octane, to be blunt and crude, does not relate to "more power", it relates to "resistance to detonation". Ignition timing also relates to detonation and ignition can be advanced when using higher octane which may result in higher power output but that is not what is being discussed here.
4) You can legally buy aviation gas and use it for anything except a vehicle driven on a public road.


I think that's the end of my rant, here someone else take this dang soap box!...

Disclaimer- It is now 1am and I reserve the right to make corrections tomorrow if I read this and I look at something and wonder what the heck was I thinking when I wrote that!.......
 
kreibach said:
Hi octane only helps if you suffer from preignition right? Otherwise it gives you the same ammount of power.

Actually, unless you have a preignition problem, you will actually lose power on higher octane fuel - there is less gasoline (which makes power by burning) and more additives in a given quantity...
 

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