Biodegradable bar oil...... anybody use it?

[caryr]

 

[Tree Machine]

Jim, How do we make a purchase? Wanna sell me a gallon out of the 5gal bucket?

To be frank and honest, I haven't decided yet, whether or not to buy a bucket. I know that straight canola oil will lubricate a bar and chain just fine, with no ill side effects. To state my position, let me offer an analogy.

Once upon a time I had a coffee maker, and it did a great job of making me coffee. I put the coffee and the water in, and out came coffee.

Then, Elizabeth said, "Hey, look at <i>this</i> coffee maker!" It had a digital clock, and you could pre-set it the night before to have coffee made upon my rolling out of bed. I asked if it would make a better cup of coffee, given the higher cost of the coffee using the new coffee maker. Nope. Same coffee.

We bought the coffee maker, and it gave me a cup of coffee that performed its function identically to the coffee of the coffee maker before. But my <i>perceived value</i> of the new coffee was higher. I really enjoy not having to wait for my coffee in the morning. Sometimes I am woken up and drawn out of my morning slumber by the aroma of fresh-brewed coffee. Nice. Even though my coffee now costs more per cup than before, I find it's worth it.

That's what I think this tack thing will boil down to for me. With straight veggie oil, my bar and chain get lubricated just fine. If I put tack into my veggie oil, my bar and chain will get lubricated just fine. I'll be looking for something that will shift my perceived value to justify the increased time and cost of ordering, paying for, and mixing.

In staying open-minded and objective, I'm going to try the Tack V-570 product. How do I do this without buying a 5 gallon pail? I asked the manufacturer for a sample. I asked if I could have a couple other samples sent out to fellow tack testers and Bill said that would be OK. The sample is 4 ounces, enough to do about a gallon and a half.

I'm, as Glen mentioned, on vacation right now. The weather in Indiana is projected to be wet, freezing rain, more wet, cold and wet, with a possibility of snow. The weather in Sarasota, Florida is sunny, warm, warm, sunny, and sunny. Elizabeth and I voted, and it was unanimous to rescedule our flight home. I won't be able to test out the tack for another 10 days (no sympathy needed!).

 

[Stumper]

Enjoy yourselves.

 

[glens]

In staying open-minded and objective, I'm going to try the Tack V-570 product. How do I do this without buying a 5 gallon pail? I asked the manufacturer for a sample. I asked if I could have a couple other samples sent out to fellow tack testers and Bill said that would be OK. The sample is 4 ounces, enough to do about a gallon and a half.

[As of Jan. 5 we're going to extend our stay in Fla and] I won't be able to test out the tack for another 10 days (no sympathy needed!).

Have you made it back yet?&nbsp; Hahaha!

Is this an example of a thread that has just died for no good reason?&nbsp; It hasn't gotten off to another forum has it?&nbsp; There is another forum-which-cannot-be-mentioned where the topic was brought up recently, and I'm being made to look bad by pointing them here for reference.

What have you done with this, Jim?

Glen

 

[Tree Machine]

Tack on track

Ohhhh, after we got back from the extended vacation, we went on another vacation and I've only been back about 10 days geetin 'er all sorted out again.

Thank you for asking.


I have the V570 sample. I put it in my freezer. I intend to set the camera up on time-lapse, shooting at 5 minute increments with the frozen bottle affixed in an upside-down position, cap open. I want to show how long it takes for the stuff to thaw, and at least half the bottle to flow out and into another container. Then, I'll add the tacifier to a gallon of veggie oil, and freeze it, and a non-tacified gallon together, same sort of time lapse photos. It's very important to know the properties of this stuff in the cold, even if that's a minor part of the year for many, nonetheless is still important.

Lastly, I found a commercial tacifier at the auto parts store (and bought it) that is 100% petroleum base. I will be bringing you more info on that, as it would allow guys to tacify regular motor oil. More on that this evening.

You wanna climb some trees this morning dawg? I'm on a very sweet property. I am only there til 1:00 this afternoon. Nice ascents, looked forward to them all day yesterday, but it was a 6-man ground work day. This morning is the climbing and the finish. Interested?

 

[glens]

Dang, I'm already running late for the plans I've already got...

 

[woodshop]

Tree... I like your scientific approach to stuff like this... looking forward to your findings professor.

 

[Tree Machine]

Thank you for that fine compliment. You've got a doctorate in millology, that's the rumor around here that I started. Dr Woodslab.

 

[herald]

I've been following this thread, and it has had some really great info! I'm not a professional logger, but I do cut a decent amount of firewood every fall. I've got a mid-size stihl, and I'm very interested in the use of organic oil for bar/chain lubricant, but I'm concerned about the oxidating properties of vegetable oil...how feasabile is it for me to use vegetable oil when I only use my saw regularly about 3-4 months out of the year? Thanks in advance, you all are extremely knowledgeable folks!

 

[Elmore]

I've been following this thread, and it has had some really great info! I'm not a professional logger, but I do cut a decent amount of firewood every fall. I've got a mid-size stihl, and I'm very interested in the use of organic oil for bar/chain lubricant, but I'm concerned about the oxidating properties of vegetable oil...how feasabile is it for me to use vegetable oil when I only use my saw regularly about 3-4 months out of the year? Thanks in advance, you all are extremely knowledgeable folks!

I think that it is suggested that at the end of the season, before you store your saw, that you run a little petroleum based bar oil through your tank and saw.

 

[Tree Machine]

Let the tests begin

OK, I set up my camera to do time lapse, one shot per minute. I took the bottle of V-570 tacifier out of the freezer, taped it upside down, unscrewed the cap and put a glass under it.

I pressed the camera button, it took a sample shot. I waited one minute. The camera fired again, cool. It was about three in the morning, I went to bed.

This morning I got up and the frozen tac had melted and emptied into the glass below. I went to view the photos.

Dang Nabbit ! I had the resolution set to super-high 5 megapixel, so it filled the media card in 21 shots, or 21 minutes. The Tac hadn't even begun to really flow, and I have to repeat the process.

SO, I have to pour the Tac back into the bottle. I thought, you guys are going to want to see this, so I set up the video camera and shot 20 seconds. The file shouldn't be too big for the dial-up guys.


This Tack is weird stuff. Here it is, flowing at <i>room temperature</i>. Note the super-heavy viscosity.

Also, sorry about having the camera sideways during the 21 minute time-lapse. This is the first time lapse I've ever done, so I'm allowed once to screw up. If I can get the Tacifier back in the bottle and re-frozen, I'll set up for a 60 minute time-lapse tonight and we'll see what it looks like.

 

[Tree Machine]

this time lapse was done over one hour. Tack material began at room temperature.

No that it's back in the jar, I'll freeze it again, and do another time lapse on the time it takes to melt and empty from the jar into a glass. This is just to satisfy my own curiosity, and then we'lll get into the testing of the stuff.

 

[woodshop]

Hey Tree... curious what brand and model digital camera do you have that will do that time lapse. Thanks for the video so far... come to any conclusions yet? Should we all go out and buy a pail of this stuff? What about a controlled "sling" test? Set oil to max output, then put dark tissue paper or something that would show oil, at end of bar and rev WOT for 2 seconds... given same temperature etc how much oil slings off with plain motor oil vs reg bar oil vs etc etc... but that would be time consuming, and how would you clean out previous oil in tank other than running tankfuls through saw. To do it right, you would really have to clean bar AND chain between types... lot of hassle.

 

[Tree Machine]

Keep the questions coming ! Step up and ask more questions. Critique this stuff. Fully understand it's properties, qualities and at the end of the day, how you <i>feel</i> about the product. These critical views are necessary. If you use it, <i>you live with it.</i>

So, YEA, let's dissect the product. Let's boil it down to the least common denominator, break the sucker apart and milk the last molecule of information out of it.

So, this is a research project. :Eye: I've stumbled onto being the project director and you(everybody) are the research assistants.

Well, OK.

Your first assignment, then, is to come up with as many questions as you can, and let's Rock n' Roll !

 

[Tree Machine]

This is going to involve some chemistry, y'know? To truly and fully understand this stuff we're trying to understand, we must go to the molecular level to the atoms and molecules, both the veggie oil AND the Tack.

It's the proportional mixing of these molecules that we get as the end product. The chemistry shouldn't intimidate anyone. It's more than just mixing two things together and trying it, though we'll be of course doing that.

 

[Tree Machine]

Hmmmmm

So, we get started immediately? Cold-weather trials are a must, and we can start that today, the Winter/Spring transition. Nice time of the year to do outdoor research!

Start posting your questions and we'll approach this in the scientific method and move it on. If we get <i>really</i> ambitious, we could have a fine body of knowledge on it in three months.

My first question to you; On June 1, what do we do with the understanding? Where do we go with it? Does this project just dissipate into cyberspace?

To fully embrace this project, we need to get aliquots (individual portions, servings) out to all of you.

What this looks like to me is everyone getting three packets of Tack. The manufacturer recommends 4 ounces (114 g) per Gallon (4.1L)

I have an idea, let's mix standards on the same formula to really give your mind a twist

One ounce per liter

See how approaching this scientifically requires us to establish standards, a baseline? We need something to measure it's efficacy. To be truly objective, the information should be measurable to a high degree. The manufacturer would be asked to provide miscibility and viscosity data. The data needs to be collected and compiled, and in three months there's a statistical analysis to confirm or deny it's ...........

I can go on. I can describe in detail why researchers get paid to do research. I just want to present what's being created here is both amazing and inspiring. I don't know what to say... :blush:

 

[woodshop]

...tree looks like you definitely had your coffee this morning

...so send me an ounce of this stuff, I'll mix it in a liter of veggie oil and I'll attempt to contribute to your scientific study. Again... think if you want to really do it right, you will need to empty the oil from your saw, and run at least a tankful or two of just plain veggie oil through to clean out regular bar oil first of you will have a mix of who knows what. Not sure it will even clean it out, will it? Do bar oil and veggie oil mix together like say alcohol and water do? Where are the chemistry guys?

 

[Tree Machine]

The miscibility of the tack is quite unique. As are all the properties. In the amount I've worked with it so far, I have come away with so much understanding of how the stuff will affect my life.

The chemistry knowledge is at a reach, though we could all benefit from one person who has capabilities of molecular configution on the computer. This is called molecular modeling and it's done by chemists. It's not really chemistry, but it is, but it's closer to graphic arts. It's where those two disciplines marry. Molecular modeling gives us a visual on what these molecules look like in a spacial 3-D perspective.

That's pretty heavy stuff, but wouldn't it be fun?

I really have to go cllmb a few trees today. Can you keep posting questions ? We'll continue this research after the work day.

Woodshop, I'll share what camera I'm using, and details, later tonight.

Questions about Tack? POST EM ! Keep em coming!

 

[glens]

Jim, I'm a little confused.&nbsp; We all know the additive has a very high viscosity by itself; that's in part how it does its thing.&nbsp; In my opinion what you should be doing is to see how detrimental it is to flowability of the veggie oil when mixed in suitable proportion and at extreme temperatures.

I might also suggest that you put a delay between images in your time-elapsed movies...

Glen

 

[Tree Machine]

In my opinion what you should be doing is to see how detrimental it is to flowability of the veggie oil when mixed in suitable proportionGlen

Do ya think?

I had never considered that. You are absolutely brilliant.