Choose your "LIFE SUPPORT" biner

[ccooperabbs]

If you think of a convential three way as up, twist and open the honey brothers four way which is produced by ISC (Denny) has the addition of a twist as the first movement. Twist, up, twist, open. My personal opinion is that this offers no greater security to the arborist than a three way, i think it was eralier in the thread someone spoke about being able to operate krabs with there eyes shut, with both hands, in any position, for me the four way action krab is very slick to operate very easy to open. It has a very positive closing action, but as with most krabs it is high maintenance, good regular inspection (pre-use) of the equipment is required, sappy trees soon clog up the action but nothing a bit of graphite powder won't sort out, every krab has it's maintenance requirements, and for me Denny makes some of the best in the world. 4 way rated at 25kn.

Several climbers in the UK have had real problems getting used to the three ways, a climber operating for 15 - 20 yrs with screwgate krabs suddenly being asked to move over to three way has unfortunately caused several accidents, some of those during aerial rescue practice, whether it is poor maintenance or complacency, thinking ti will just shut without checking i don't know. A friend of mine who works with screwgates utilises a belay master to ensure his gate is closed and prevents rotation of the krab on his belt.

 

[Tree Machine]

a twist as the first movement. Twist, up, twist, open.

It should, I think, be Up, twist, up another step, twist, open gate. I have used this system and made the mistake of thinking that it would always be available to me.

This that I describe is the industry norm for all triple-lock biners, except for the first Up, twist. This is that secondary drop-in slot that's missing from everything out there.

25 kN in all directions.... that's unusual. What is it's shape, size? I'll try one even if it doesn't have my drop-slot gate configuration. How bout Denny's e-mail address. -TM-

 

[hillbilly]

How about ISC's webpage:
www.iscwales.com

 

[Tom Dunlap]

TM,

The BD Superlock doesn't meet current ANSI standards for being auto locking. Unless the gate is moved manually, all you have is a twist gate biner. I have a few of them in my rec climbing kit. I'll use them until they trash. They get used only in places where I set them up. Not for when beginer climbers need to clip or unclip. In those places, I use auto locks only.

Tom

 

[Tree Machine]

And the BD superlock had plastic gate components that got buggered with weather and grit. And it was Aluminum.

I appreciate Tom's fact, in that it doesn't meet ANSI spec's.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are we in agreement that the karibiner we're talking about; your front-line, life connection, super-bomb, biner does not exist?

Ok. So whadda we do? Do we design onehere and now and offer the thoughts up to DMM, Kong, ISC or Petzl?

This could be good group therapy for all of us. -TM-

 

[Tom Dunlap]

TM,

There are plenty of great biners being made right now. That doesn't mean that a new one can't be invented.

Every time I meet up with Denny Moorehouse he has some new ideas. At '02 TCI he said that "his" companies, Clog, DMM and now ISC will make their 2 M...M...millionth biner sometime this year, '03. Pretty amazing. I wonder how many of those are still in service.

Any ideas for new biners?

Tom

 

[Tree Machine]

New Biner???

Congratulations, Mr. Moorehouse! We'd like to order off the menu, please.

Let's start with with, ohh.. 40 to 50 kilonewton range, steel, modified pear with a gate design beyond that of today's triple-locks.

We'd like to embellish the gate detail. First, we wish that if the karibiner is used right-handed, that the gate details face the user. The gate details, we'd like to have just as with your most excellent triple-locks, with one key addition: we would like for there to be an additional, deeply recessed drop-in slot for the gate-lock pin. Please see the attached photo for clarification concerning this detail.

Thank you, Mr Moorehouse. I look forward to meeting you at the upcoming TCI this November. Sincerely, The Tree Machine

 

[Tree Machine]

In search of the elusive quad lock

Technically, the quad lock should be a fraction of weight measure less than the triple lock. Only a bit of gate metal removed is the difference. The karibiner would act exactly as a triple lock unless you, the user, deliberately lift and twists the gate further drop into the accessory 'safety slot'.

Is this too much to ask for? I mean, I'm already climbing on 98% of this karibiner, and we the Tree Machine simply wants that final safety option. Karabiner design can only be pushed so much further as they're already a highly evolved piece of gear.

Has Black Diamond patented this gate design so that no other company can use it? Or does this biner exist and I've just not yet found it? I'm an inquiring mind.... I wanna know. -TM-

 

[Eagle1]

TreeMachine, what do you do with all those nonlocking biners?


K2?

 

[MasterBlaster]

I climb by myself, when I have to. It's not my favorite thing in the world to do, but I do it when I have to. Big deal.

Allright, let me get the padding on.....

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I do it from time to time, I developed a method to lower limbs in non critical situation where I can flip the line off once the the laod is off. I figured it out one day mi line was fouled and I could not get a groundie to look up at me.

Anyone who is interested can figure it out themselves. I wont describe it, since it does not work 100% of the time

 

[Tree Machine]

TM breaks the number 1 rule of any climber and climbs by himself with no one else around

I thought that rule was for SCUBA diving....?

Funny how he wants a 50 kN steel quad lock biner for life support though.

50 kN is the rating on 3 of the 4 steel autolock steel biners I have. 50 kN is not asking for anything unusual. And why do I keep getting asked what I use the non-lockers for? Do all my peers use locking biners strictly?? I doubt it. I've got a million and one uses for karibiners, some uses require locking and some not.

As far as the karibiner I hang my life on, I think the quad-lock is valid. Rocky J. makes the good point that more safety devices can be simply more tedious, but in the case of a quad lock biner, it functions exactly as a triple lock. That final drop-in slot is optional. The gate doesn't close and go there. You have to deliberately, lift, twist and drop it in. Therefore, you use it when you deem it necessary. For me, that would be every single time I close the gate, but that's just me.

Since he has no one around for roping stuff, he uses all those nonlocking biners for single shot limb lowering.

That's not how I regularly do it, although I have done it that way on occasion - multiple limbs on one line, lower them all at once. When I lower a limb and need to retrieve my rope, it's always just one limb at a time and that would be in a technically critical situation. I'd rather not rig them down unless it's really necessary. I tend to use the slings, individually or in multiples to secure the limb and do the cut. Unsling, and throw. That way I can sort of 'stack' the brush from up in the tree and have pretty good control of where that limb is going to land. Occasionally I'll let a limb fly with the sling still on it. That's light rigging, though.

I don't work alone all the time. Just ~ 19 out of 20 jobs, though I'm at 53 in a row right now. Is this a professional faux pas??? I've done is like this for 8 of the last ten years and really don't think much of it. I mean, is it not cool?? I do wanna be cool. -TM-

 

[Stumper]

Treemachine, Working alone is not considered cool. Most of our compatriots here will tell us so in a heartbeat. I always thought that being cool was highly overated. I just went ahead and did what I thought right and didn't worry about being cool. Interestingly, once we got beyond everyone's high school silliness people started thinking I WAS/AM . I work alone also. It really isn't a big deal. Yes there is an element of risk. There is also a removal of risk-the employee's can't get you killed. Half the posters on here seem to work with ground personel that they wouldn't trust to find the ground with both feet!
I use non locking 'biners for light rigging as well-no prob. I don't feel the need for steel biners for personal support-I left steel snaps because of the weight. If you like 'em -fine!:angel:

 

[Tree Machine]

Thanks, Stumper

I guess the worst part of working alone is the cleanup. Even when I have a helper, rarely do I need him for anything once I'm up in the tree. Unclip a caribiner if I'm lowering something. Otherwise, stack brush.

This thread, however, is about the karibiner you hang your life on. What's everyone else using??? -TM-

 

[MasterBlaster]

The WORST part is having no one to tie some water on, or refill yur saw. THAT sucks!

Oh, yeah, I use the standard single-locking snap. I don't like dem carameled beaners. They look cool, though.

 

[Eagle1]

Single locking also.
But the working alone part is intresting. The mess at the bottom or a empty gas tank is the worst part. But there are limits as to what you can do alone.

 

[Stumper]

Eagle1, Yes there are limits-but they are surprisingly far out. There are also limits to what I can do working with help. I once had a great part-time helper. I miss him at times. Working alone is a decision based upon my own arboricultural practice and needs.

And- Pruning is fast , but clean-up lasts forever.

 

[Tree Machine]

The WORST part is having no one to tie some water on

Camelbak.

there are limits as to what you can do alone.

Maybe in the cleanup, but in the tree, it's all about technique and problem solving.

I drum up help when there's any sort of distance between the drop zone and the chipper, or if the takedown is just huge, or crane jobs (which I've had one in the last 7 years).

Who else is using what up front? -TM-

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

The worst part of working alone is when you line gets fouled on the limbs.

I did a small removal for a neighbor of an investment property of mine, maybe 1.5 hours. I went up the tree 3 times because I have to cut and move the stuff out of the tiney front yard. puff puff puff

 

[Tree Machine]

Life support caribiners

Excellent point(s)! 50 kN is way overkill. But so is the fact that I prefer to climb on 1/2" bull rope (stable braid) which has an 11,000 lb tensile.

From a size standpoint, a 23 kN and a 50 kN biner will each fit into the palm of your hand. If I'm to choose between two essentially identically sized biners, one has a 23 kN rating and the other a 40 or 50, I will probably choose the 40 or 50, even though a 23 kN karabiner is plenty sufficient.

Now, if a 23 kN quad lock were sitting next to an identically shaped 50kN triple lock, I'd go for the lesser rated quad lock, without question.

One point I'll add in Aluminum vs. Steel, and this I learned this from my early years when I was doing a lot of rock climbing. If an aluminum biner is dropped from a height and lands on hard surface, that biner is immediately retired. Invisible (to the eye) stress cracks can develop upon shock impacts like this resulting in unpredictable failure with forces well below the rating. Forged steel is more resistant to this sort of accident.

Doubtful you will ever drop your life support biner from a height onto concrete or rock, but this factoid is still a good thing to remember.

Anyone got a photo of the locking snaps that seem to have popularity as life support frontware? What's the force rating on these?