ROLLACOSTA
Addicted to ArboristSite
Does anyone here use the stuff? does it work?
Compost tea
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windthrown
361 Junkie
I think it is a gimmick. They sell that stuff at some of the local nurseries. I use sheep poop myself. Dump it on the plants and let it rot down. They love it. Maybe I should get a compost tea thing and dump the sheep poop in there and sell sheep-poop shakes???
Really, what I learned from my UC Davis horticulture professors is that plants do not differentiate between synthetic nutrients and natural ones. If you dump on MiricleGrow, fresh manure, or compost tea, they will take up the available nitrogen/phosphate/potasium just the same from any of them.
Really, what I learned from my UC Davis horticulture professors is that plants do not differentiate between synthetic nutrients and natural ones. If you dump on MiricleGrow, fresh manure, or compost tea, they will take up the available nitrogen/phosphate/potasium just the same from any of them.
If you are talking straight N/P/K, I am pretty sure that is the case. However, if is not always straight N/P/K that you are dealing with....micronutrients, microbes, etc... Also rate of nutrient release (availability of nitrogen, for example) can also be drastically different. But yes, NO3(-) is NO3(-) where ever it came from.
I'm not saying compost tea is the way to go...just that natural organic products are different than synthetic organics or inorganics.
windthrown
361 Junkie
Well, there is also the pH issue, and iron and phosphate soil binding. And other soil chemistry (like urea/nitrite/nitrate bacterial breakdown, etc). But the NPK was what I was referring to with regard to the compost tea vs. MiricleGrow. Though MiricleGrow is a good formula. I just do not see the need to use, say, expensive fish emulsion or conpost tea over inorganics like MiricleGrow (or cheaper non-branded single element equivalents).
I have flipped to organics lately becasue of the price of fertilizer these days. We also have an endless supply of poop, and it is pretty nitrogen-hot around the barn area. So I spread it around. I also get bags of free inorganic fertilizer from the local co-op now and then, so I use that as well on some crops that I do not want to have to weed, or that need a lot of fertilizer at one time (like bamboo and grass this time of year). We used to use a lot of urea and superphosphate and lime on the pastures here. But the prices on those now!??! No more... poop and pee have become gold.
I have flipped to organics lately becasue of the price of fertilizer these days. We also have an endless supply of poop, and it is pretty nitrogen-hot around the barn area. So I spread it around. I also get bags of free inorganic fertilizer from the local co-op now and then, so I use that as well on some crops that I do not want to have to weed, or that need a lot of fertilizer at one time (like bamboo and grass this time of year). We used to use a lot of urea and superphosphate and lime on the pastures here. But the prices on those now!??! No more... poop and pee have become gold.
feed the microbes
I attended an organic turfgrass seminar last week and the idea was that chemical fertilizers feed the plants but sterilize the soil,creating a vicious cycle whereby the plants must be fertilized, she compared it to hydroponics.Compost tea is meant to put beneficial microbes back into the soil and on the plants/turf so that the soil becomes self sustaining, needing no further chemical treatment.Applying organic mulch,mychorhizae,manure,compost and proper watering practices should restore balance to the soil,and therefore the plants. Based on her evidence and observation of natural systems I'd like to think it works.I'll be mulching and composting more around my property, and brewing up some tea when winter finally gives up.Gardening in the snow yesterday,brrr....
I attended an organic turfgrass seminar last week and the idea was that chemical fertilizers feed the plants but sterilize the soil,creating a vicious cycle whereby the plants must be fertilized, she compared it to hydroponics.Compost tea is meant to put beneficial microbes back into the soil and on the plants/turf so that the soil becomes self sustaining, needing no further chemical treatment.Applying organic mulch,mychorhizae,manure,compost and proper watering practices should restore balance to the soil,and therefore the plants. Based on her evidence and observation of natural systems I'd like to think it works.I'll be mulching and composting more around my property, and brewing up some tea when winter finally gives up.Gardening in the snow yesterday,brrr....
Katydid
ArboristSite Lurker
My son gave me a jar of "tea" that came from his compost bin, pending us starting our own. My plans seem to love it. I don't like using Miracle Grow. It makes the plants grow faster but but doesn't set up a self sustaining culture for the plants.........and it can't be good for the environment. We got a load of compost from a neighbor who is moving. Full of worms....such good stuff.
windthrown
361 Junkie
No such thing as sterilizing the soil with correctly applied fertilizer. Actually the opposite is more true. You will get microbe blooms from it. Nor is there any need to add microbes to the soil, or use microbe or compost starter. There are microbes everywhere. Adding more microbes is not doing anything, really, any more than your eating more bacteria to make you digest food better. The benefits of composting and such is that you get a more even application of nutrients that break down more slowly. In many plants that is more beneficial. In some it is not though.
There is such a thing as overfeeding fertilizers and getting too much growth, and then less growth. But with plants like roses that is actually beneficial; feed, get growth, stop feeding, get blooms. I could get 5 or 6 bloom cycles from my roses in San Diego using that method. I use inorganics like MiricleGrow at half strength at most, and usually on plants that have a hugh demand this time of year, like grass and bamboo. They actually need a peak fertilizer at this time of year to get the most benefit. This is also critical in pasture management.
I also compost, and use a lot of different types of fertilizer on a lot of different types of plants here. It also varies from year to year. I mound up the manure on the berries, feed the pastures and bamboos urea in spring, feed my orchids high nitrogen fertilizer in summer, feed my garlic high nitrogen fertilizer in early spring, and mulch the blueberries with sawdust and sheep manure. I also mound up barn muck around the orchard trees, and use a mix of degraded aged horse manure and bark for the gardens. I dump our OWB wood ashes on all the orchards, vineyards and gardens. I have worms in all these areas. I have award winning orchids, roses and garlic every year. I get more berries and fruit than we can eat, and I hope to get more wine than I can drink in the next several years from my 1/2 acre vineyard. I have over an acre in cultivation here and I own a plant nursery. We also have 25 acres of pastures, and 85 acres of woodland. The plants are pretty happy with the variety of diets I feed them here.
Katydid
ArboristSite Lurker
Compost/vs Fertilizer
thanks for the good info.....I'll be passing this on to my relatives and friends who still use fertilizers such as Miracle Grow. Our son and his new wife are very much into self sustaining gardening. They have tought us "old dogs knew tricks."
thanks for the good info.....I'll be passing this on to my relatives and friends who still use fertilizers such as Miracle Grow. Our son and his new wife are very much into self sustaining gardening. They have tought us "old dogs knew tricks."
2 thoughts:
1) Agree 100% that you are not going to "strerilize the soil" with normal fertilization - inorganic, organic or natural organic. But, yes you can burn it - with inorganic, organic or natural organic fertilizers (I assume that is implied in windthrown's phrase "correctly applied fertilizer"). You can burn things pretty bad if you use manure wrong, right?
2) Not all soil has good microbe populations - especially when you are dealing with soil that came from 5' underground when they excavated the basement, or when you have street tree soil, heavily compacted areas, etc...
windthrown
361 Junkie
Yes, you can 'burn' soil with manure. Nothing grows within 10 feet of our barn. Ever. It is pretty nitrogen and amonia 'hot' and is awash in manure and urine all the time. But left on its own, after a while the nitrogen would break down and wash out (it is highly soluble) and things would grow there again.
Microbes are another thing. There are microbes even in deep soil. They grow expoentially, and hence they do not need very long to repopulate a plot of soil that is ideal for growing in. Leave steam sterilized soil out and water it and it will have a nice growth of fungus and bacteria in no time, all on its own. My point being it is a waste of money in a typical garden to add cultures to soil. They sell it though, as some miricle ingredient for composting and such. Not needed.
However, that said, adding organics to the soil is a good thing. By organics I mean compost, sawdust, leaves, coffee grounds, bark, nut shells, manure, whatever. Not from a nutrient aspect, but from a soil quality one. Worked soil with a lot of organic matter will hold more moisture, allow for better growth of roots, be looser, and attract worms. Worms are great for improving soil composition, and they leave castings and areate the soil. They also attract moles though, which eat them. I do not rototill my soil that much; at most once a year. Otherwise you can get a polished layer below the beds, and the soil gets overworked. I feed the worms, and let them do the tilling. I tend to cold compost layers of organics on my plants. They break down slower, and feed the worms, as well as keep the soil from drying out.
Lately I have been experimenting with mixing sawdust and sheep poop as a soil topping cold compost. I can get all the free sawdust I want at a local saw mill. Problem with sawdust is that it robs the soil of nitrogen and other nutrients. Actually, the microbes that feed on the sawdust rob the soil of nutrients when they break it down, but once it is rotted the sawdust will return the nutrients to the soil. I also have an endless supply of sheep poop from the sheep farm here. The barn is always overflowing with the stuff. Problem with that is that sheep poop tends to be too hot to apply directly to the soil. So, thinking that one robs the soil and the other is too hot for it, I figure that mixing them as a soil topping will do the trick. I throw out a good half inch of sawdust and then top that with a layer of sheep pellets. No complaints from any of the plants yet. I have yet to see the longer term reults of the soil, but I expect that the poop will speed up the breakdown of the sawdust. Rotted sawdust is a pretty good soil amendment.
Microbes are another thing. There are microbes even in deep soil. They grow expoentially, and hence they do not need very long to repopulate a plot of soil that is ideal for growing in. Leave steam sterilized soil out and water it and it will have a nice growth of fungus and bacteria in no time, all on its own. My point being it is a waste of money in a typical garden to add cultures to soil. They sell it though, as some miricle ingredient for composting and such. Not needed.
However, that said, adding organics to the soil is a good thing. By organics I mean compost, sawdust, leaves, coffee grounds, bark, nut shells, manure, whatever. Not from a nutrient aspect, but from a soil quality one. Worked soil with a lot of organic matter will hold more moisture, allow for better growth of roots, be looser, and attract worms. Worms are great for improving soil composition, and they leave castings and areate the soil. They also attract moles though, which eat them. I do not rototill my soil that much; at most once a year. Otherwise you can get a polished layer below the beds, and the soil gets overworked. I feed the worms, and let them do the tilling. I tend to cold compost layers of organics on my plants. They break down slower, and feed the worms, as well as keep the soil from drying out.
Lately I have been experimenting with mixing sawdust and sheep poop as a soil topping cold compost. I can get all the free sawdust I want at a local saw mill. Problem with sawdust is that it robs the soil of nitrogen and other nutrients. Actually, the microbes that feed on the sawdust rob the soil of nutrients when they break it down, but once it is rotted the sawdust will return the nutrients to the soil. I also have an endless supply of sheep poop from the sheep farm here. The barn is always overflowing with the stuff. Problem with that is that sheep poop tends to be too hot to apply directly to the soil. So, thinking that one robs the soil and the other is too hot for it, I figure that mixing them as a soil topping will do the trick. I throw out a good half inch of sawdust and then top that with a layer of sheep pellets. No complaints from any of the plants yet. I have yet to see the longer term reults of the soil, but I expect that the poop will speed up the breakdown of the sawdust. Rotted sawdust is a pretty good soil amendment.
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PB
Addicted to ArboristSite
Compost tea has been shown to have some limited results in preventing fungal growth in crops as well, which is always beneficial.
Traditional chemical fertilizer isn't any worse for the environment as long as you don't over apply. Less is more. You will have to apply more compost tea than chemical fertilizer, the nitrogen in the tea is not in a readily usable form by the plants and will need to be converted. This process takes a while and will most likely leach out before it is all used by the plants.
Compost tea is good, but not the best from a plant perspective. Proper use of fertilizer is necessary no matter the type.
If you want to get rid of fertilizers all together, plant some legumes in your garden. They are more efficient at acquiring N (actually the symbiotic bacteria), and will supply excess N to surrounding plants.
Traditional chemical fertilizer isn't any worse for the environment as long as you don't over apply. Less is more. You will have to apply more compost tea than chemical fertilizer, the nitrogen in the tea is not in a readily usable form by the plants and will need to be converted. This process takes a while and will most likely leach out before it is all used by the plants.
Compost tea is good, but not the best from a plant perspective. Proper use of fertilizer is necessary no matter the type.
If you want to get rid of fertilizers all together, plant some legumes in your garden. They are more efficient at acquiring N (actually the symbiotic bacteria), and will supply excess N to surrounding plants.
Dennis_Peacock
ArboristSite Operative
Well....??? Don't stop now.....Y'all got me tuh learnin' a thang or two and now I'm curiouser than ever before. 
Seriously though, the LOML and I are learning more about all this and yes we do use compost tea with fair results but not as good results as with MiracleGrow or something along those lines. I'm a woodworker by serious hobby and we have LOTS of sawdust tilled into our garden. We add horse poop, grass clippings, hay, straw, and such to it every year and till all that in. The soil has changed from clay red and bright grey to very dark grey to black in color and the soil doesn't compact tightly as it used to. It's must more appealing to garden plants now than ever before.
Keep it going....I love to read about this stuff.
Seriously though, the LOML and I are learning more about all this and yes we do use compost tea with fair results but not as good results as with MiracleGrow or something along those lines. I'm a woodworker by serious hobby and we have LOTS of sawdust tilled into our garden. We add horse poop, grass clippings, hay, straw, and such to it every year and till all that in. The soil has changed from clay red and bright grey to very dark grey to black in color and the soil doesn't compact tightly as it used to. It's must more appealing to garden plants now than ever before.
Keep it going....I love to read about this stuff.
windthrown
361 Junkie
Red clay? That is what I planted my vineyard in here. Meaning it is not that great a soil for most plants (you want poorer soil for grapes to get better quality and lower quantity fruit and higher levels of acids).
So you are doing the right thing. Mulch it and till organic stuff into the soil. I also grow garlic here (several hundred pounds a year) and that stuff demands premium soil. I have an area here that the previous owners dumped tons (literally) of horse manure into for about 10 years. The garlic thrives in it. The soils around here vary; some is scraped clay and it makes for poor pasture. Some I have dumped barn muck onto and it has become loam; dark brown to black, and crawling with worms. Good stuff.
This year I was fed up with weeding the garlic so much, so I flipped from sheep poop to Miricle Grow on them. They are just as big, and maybe 20% of the weeds that I had last year. The sheep poop is full of weeds. I need to figure out a way to sterilize it. Composting would work to cook the seeds to death, but the volume is just too large. Maybe 10 yards of the stuff a year? I piled it all up in a heap 3 years ago, but it became a giant wad of goo and a wet mess that just would not dry out.
So you are doing the right thing. Mulch it and till organic stuff into the soil. I also grow garlic here (several hundred pounds a year) and that stuff demands premium soil. I have an area here that the previous owners dumped tons (literally) of horse manure into for about 10 years. The garlic thrives in it. The soils around here vary; some is scraped clay and it makes for poor pasture. Some I have dumped barn muck onto and it has become loam; dark brown to black, and crawling with worms. Good stuff.
This year I was fed up with weeding the garlic so much, so I flipped from sheep poop to Miricle Grow on them. They are just as big, and maybe 20% of the weeds that I had last year. The sheep poop is full of weeds. I need to figure out a way to sterilize it. Composting would work to cook the seeds to death, but the volume is just too large. Maybe 10 yards of the stuff a year? I piled it all up in a heap 3 years ago, but it became a giant wad of goo and a wet mess that just would not dry out.
