Deep root fertilizing?

[Kneejerk Bombas]

John, you wanted discourse so...

What specific elements are needed when adding mass?

I agree that removing yard waste has a disadvantage but I disagree that dumping plant hormones is the solution.

Plant hormones are chemicals that are produced in small amounts in one part of the plant to create a reaction in another part of the plant. These hormones keep the plant in balance, so to speak. Cytokinin is made in every cell in the tree, to some extent, and I'm not to sure dumping it on the grond would even make it available to the tree, and if it did, if it would do anything good. Can you site any research?

Could you explain what wide spectrum of elements you are refering to in fish guts, Mercury?
Most of the benefits that come from adding organic matter, come from the microorganisms that come to break that matter down. Composted cow manure is also OTC RTU and MMLMTB.
(much more less money to buy)

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

What are neede? D'ont know, that is why I feel all of C Hopkins CaFe (cannot rember the entire mnomic) should be applied is small amounts so it is availible for the plant if we want to make it grow. Otherwise it will have to make do with what is in the clay we tell it to grow in.

The science we have on "fertility" comes from crop studies on things like wheat and corn that are annuals. The few studies that have been done recently on trees show that photosynthesis is not increased by N application dry weight was increased somewhat, but not much. It was thought that cells were grown bigger and their was maor water in the plant. Citations? I can't listen and take notes.

Alass I was going to try to do some analysis with the seaweed stuff next yesr, but the best laid palns and whatnot...I only have anecdotal evedance that it did increase the density of fine roost in areas of application and realy made trees green without adding much incremental growth. I only used it on visible stressed trees.

As for the manure, a while back I looked into pumping for soil injection. I like the idea of using it as a soil amendment. But it would not work in the equipment the company I was working for had. Organic slurries.

 

[gitrdun_climbr]

Great discussion so I thought I would give my input. I like it when people are getting to the nuts-and-bolts of things. This forum fascilitates an excellent opportunity for an arborist like myself to take a consensus of information to figure out what works - best.

I was taught to use an organic fertilizer in Fall to encourage new growth in the following growing season. If you have very sandy soil or are using a fast-release (inorganic) fertilizer then you fertilize closer to the coming growing season. Generally Nitrogen is all that is needed and yes, adding other supplements should be done by prescription. In my opinion to knowingly sell a homeowner uneeded soil amendments is the same as the auto mechanic selling me extra parts my car doesn't need...we all know the type.

Deep root fertilizing, IMO is largely a waste of time. As we all know the absorbing roots of most trees are contained within the top 12" of soil because that is generally where their water supply is...of course there are exception. On a hillside for example a surface application may be washed away. Some tree roots may find some underground water supply...you ready to go rooting around looking for it?

I once grew two plants of an unnamed variety. One heavily fertilized and one not. The fertilized plant did grow faster, stronger, greener. The other much slower and seemingly, well lazily. When they got older that lazy plant produced some of the most potent bud ever smoked by man

Be well.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Growth rates are controlled, in part, by available nutrients and hormones, but you need to decide whether or not you want the plant to grow fast.
As gitrdone points out, many crops do better at slower growth rates. Apples for example, will have poor fruit production at high fertilizer rates.
This can be an important consideration with all trees. Think about tree longevity, compared to growth rates. Slow growing trees live longer than fast growing trees, in most cases.
Slow and steady wins the race.

 

[ROLLACOSTA]

Any is better then nothing....

Hmmm.

I love discourse! I want it!

Then go "organic". Use fish (Peeyueeww) or seaweed emulsions.

.

Woodchip mulch and leaf mould are plenty good enough,no need for anything else IMO

 

[xtremetrees]

Fetilizing trees is a tremendous money maker for my company and we have the results from saving thousands of trees to back our work up for. Some of the posters here think that fertilizing is a waste of time well there nuts and they have obviously made no money in this great avenue of tree care to make money. There are thousands of tree companies throughout the country that fertilize trees and shrubs on clients properties and they make tons of money at it. I have one simple saying when it comes to the tree industry --- you can only cut a tree down one time but you can prune it, fertilize it, cable it many many times over and make money every time doing the application to a tree. To say that fertilizing is a waste of time is ridicolous in my book.

How does one sell Fertilization, I could see some of what your selling in post construction areas, but to a average homeowner its cheaper to just water the tree and some npk to it. I just havent been able to sell fertilization at all. I am in my first year thou:monkey:

 

[Ax-man]

How does one sell Fertilization, I could see some of what your selling in post construction areas, but to a average homeowner its cheaper to just water the tree and some npk to it. I just havent been able to sell fertilization at all. I am in my first year thou:monkey:

Fertilizing trees is not hard to sell, it has to be sold to the more upscale type client who has an above average concern for their trees and won't trust just any Clearance type treecutter to work on their trees. Trees on their property are more like members of the family and they more or less have a bond with the trees.

If your competing against a lawn service that offers tree ferting it is going to be a little tough. Most lawn services just do a poor job of fertilizing trees, squirt, squirt and they roll up the hoses and leave. One person said his national lawn service fertilized his trees for $40, can't compete against that.

Larry

 

[Sirpouralot]

I have also enjoyed reading all of your thoughts on this matter. All of them have at least some truth to them.

From a business stand point, fertilization has been very profitable for us. We get a premium for it. We look at how much the client is paying to have his trees trimmed and add 10% to 15% more of the total cost for fertilization. Say for example the client is paying $4000 to have all his trees pruned and some removed, then he will almost always pay 10% more to protect his investment. Easy money!! This is the same thing the salesmen does when you buy your new big screen TV. Sir we offer an extended warranty on that television for just xxx$ more. Do you really need that extra warranty? No usually not. But can you take that risk?

Having said the above, I have to agree that fertilization whole sale, is not the best practice for arborculture and as the general public becomes more educated, this practice of selling wholesale fertilization will undoubtedly change. There are some great benefits to fertilization beyond profitability, and it does make sense both for the health and growth of developing trees and to a limited extent for mature ones, in some cases. Studies have shown though that this practice of whole sale fertilization can at times be dangerous and detrimental to the environment {nitrates in wells and lakes} I have also seen over many years of watching many clients trees react to fertilization and the benefits as well as some problems encountered. My final thoughts on this subject, is that it doesn't have to be an all or nothing approach. Knowledge is your best tool when it comes to fertilization. You should know as an Arborist what effect fertilization will have on your clients trees and also what problems you may be creating. If the benefits out weigh the risks and it is profitable to do so, then

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Fetilizing trees is a tremendous money maker for my company and we have the results from saving thousands of trees to back our work up for. Some of the posters here think that fertilizing is a waste of time well there nuts and they have obviously made no money in this great avenue of tree care to make money. There are thousands of tree companies throughout the country that fertilize trees and shrubs on clients properties and they make tons of money at it. I have one simple saying when it comes to the tree industry --- you can only cut a tree down one time but you can prune it, fertilize it, cable it many many times over and make money every time doing the application to a tree. To say that fertilizing is a waste of time is ridicolous in my book.

Typically, I have not found a fertilizing company for trees in our state, that talks people out of fertilizing trees: generally always willing to make the sale.

Sometimes it is good. But 80% of the time, its not needed and proper soil care is a far better option.

Hopefully you are the rare breed that will steer quite a few people away from the practice of fertilizing - offering sales to just the people who need it.

This is one specific topic for which I made an advice page at my site.

We offer tree feeding, but its not something that's commonly needed. Usually, we are improving soil conditions instead.

Also, a lot of fertilizing needs are best done split into two or three smaller doses through the year, rather than just one. More expensive, but what's cost when tree health and premium service is the ideal option.

 

[Ekka]

As I understand it and was taught, trees in later fall start to store their resources for the spring bloom.

When Spring comes around a deciduous tree uses it's stored reserves to bud and leaf. sure once the process is underway the tree can photosynthesize and transpire to get things moving along but prior to that ... it's up to what it stored.

Here's a page on my website about fertilizing, critique it if you like, heck, I've taken on tougher than you blokes.

http://www.weareallabouttrees.com.au/fertilizing.html

Deep root fertilization here is like a major non event.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Here's a page on my website about fertilizing, critique it if you like, heck, I've taken on tougher than you blokes.

The main nutrient you need to avoid is N (nitrogen). Nitrogen promotes growth which is not what you want from a stressed tree. Buy organic fertilizer with trace elements, most are low in N, or look for a low N inorganic. The objective here is to have a sound nutrient base, moisture and mulch so the tree can have reserves to grow callus wood and sap to flood out borers.

There is also the problem with urea based N products where the tree needs to kick out a C atom to use the N compound, where an ammoniacal fert is readily available to the tree.